User talk:Vulturell/Archive01

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Contents 1 Tyrone Power 2 Anthony Hopkins 3 Ethnic labels 4 Marlon Brando 5 Charles R. Redford Sr. 6 Robert De Niro 7 adding people to Catholic category 8 Robert Heinlein 9 Links to disambiguation pages 10 Christopher Lee 11 Keira Knightley's mother 12 Bridget Moynahan 13 CrystalCherry 14 Canadian 15 Request 16 Matthew 17 My Articles 18 Gregory Peck 19 Vandal 20 Obsession with ethnic identification 21 The truth about CrystalCherry (well, possibly) :) 22 List of Jews 23 Crystalcherry 24 Billy Wilder 25 Jennifer Aniston 26 I'm just trying 27 Wealthy fictional characters 28 Tera Patrick 29 Jewish categories 30 Irish in American Politics 31 Aniston 32 Orlando Bloom

[edit] Tyrone Power

Hi I am a cousin of his, his mother's ancestry was published in the World Family Tree, I haven't got access to this ATM but I will get the details for you, but from memory, his mother was daughter of Charles W Rheaume (his father was French Canadian) and Adeline Schuster, daughter of Paul Schuster born in France and Miss Schwebel. Arnie587 23:49, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi I will get a few more details for you tomorrow but for now here are T. Power's great grandparents Paul + Amanda (nee Schwebel)Schuster on the 1880 census [1] their daughter Adilade married Charles W Reaume [2] Regards Arnie587 22:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I think I may have made a mistake re: Tyrone Power, I guess I had assumed his Schuster ancestors were jewish as most famous Schusters are, but from looking into it it looks like a lot are Catholic, from Germany and the Alsace region of France. Also I have determined that Paul Schuster's wife was not Amanda Eliza Schwebel(which can be a jewish) but Amanda Eleanor Brazee which is a NY name possiby Dutch or French in origin. It is possible however that Tyrone Power's father's family were part jewish (which is partly what led me to think the Schusters might be) as the brother and sister of his paternal grandmother both married into the Solomon and Nathan families, who were in the top of the jewish community in London. Arnie587 13:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh well. It's still interesting information, however. Vulturell 18:03, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anthony Hopkins

Um, can you provide a source for the changes you made in the first paragraph? I'm reverting until you do. Alphax ^τεχ 07:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Yup, I can prove just about anything, try me.

Anyway - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566561450/qid=1128239461/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-1474594-6266247?v=glance&s=books

It's a searchable book bio. You can also just search for " "Anthony Hopkins" Yeats " on Google or something. Usually turns up a bunch of results. Vulturell 07:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, I've added the "to" that was missing (which made me find the change in the first place). I was dubious of the change because the way it's worded, it sounds like he was born out of wedlock or something. Alphax ^τεχ 08:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic labels

Could you please add some explanation of ethnicity to the articles you are categorizing? For example, calling Larry Hagman, a second-generation Texan, an "English-American" is a designation which requires description. Were his grandparents on one or both sides English, or what? "Hageman", his father's name, doesn't sound English. I appreciate your desire to categorize, but categories should only reflect what is in the article. Wikipedia is not a genealogy, but you can also annotate your edits in summaries or on the talk page. Thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:42, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, "English American" is, as per the topic of your post, an ethnic designation. His ancestors could have lived in the States for 400 years, but that would still be their ethnic background. I don't know about Hagman's father's ancestry, but his mother's is English, I thought that ground enough to add him. Vulturell 04:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the type of information that needs to be in the article to support categorization into ethnic groups. Right now the only evidence is that he's a "Texas-American." And I don't mean just the Hagman article. The ethnic labels you're adding to articles have other editors scratching their heads. It would be helpful to the project if you could please give reasons for categorizing people, especially when there's nothing in the article about ethnicity already. I also know that there are questions about categorizing people based on a distant ancestor. First or second generation immigrants are undoubtedly "English-Americans", but what about fifth or seventh generation families? Do the immingrants' descendents remain "English-Americans" forever, simply adding ethnicities as groups intermarry. It's not clear what criteria you're using. Thanks, -Willmcw 07:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well by "English American" I would refer to a person who has at least one "fully" ethnically English grandparent. That means I take into account intermarriage, etc. I would consider fifth or sixth generation ancestors to still qualify the person, if the person is 1/4 or more of that ethnicity (in fact in the past I have taken people out of certain categories they were in since they had less than 1/4 of whichever heritage). The 1/4 rule is the standard I usually use, since it mercifully limits the person to inclusion in a maximum of 4 groups (Robert Downey, Jr. is a good example of a person who evenly has 4 grandparents of different ethnicities.

Anyway, I usually include details of a person's background in their profile, but yes, there are a few that I omit and just assume people will realize what I'm talking about. However, based on your suggestion I will try to remedy that.

Oh, and the editor who was asking about this on your talk page seems to think "English Americans" should exist as a category for English-born people only. I think that's a bit silly, considering Swedish-Americans or Polish-American certainly refer to U.S. born people with whichever ancestry. Vulturell 07:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

English-American is never used in America to designate an ethnic group. As an American, the first time I've ever heard that term was right here. --TheNationalist 23:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't start that category but I like it. "English Americans" is a better sounding term than "WASP", right?Vulturell 00:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Marlon Brando

Hi again, I had to revert the info about Brando being French as I am sure (in this case !) about his ancestry please see the discussion page Talk:Marlon_Brando#ancestry_.2F_ethnicity his Brando ancestors lived in NY state since early 1600s, descended from Johann Wilhelm Brandau. I am currently trying to trace his father's mother who is a mystery as she apparently ran away some time after 1900 so at the moment her ancestry is undetermined (to me his father looks east european maybe jewish) Arnie587 19:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

This book on Brando at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670882364/qid=1128315238/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/103-1474594-6266247?v=glance&s=books) had the details which I added. I assumed it to be correct - it even mentioned his father changing the surname just before Brando's birth. I won't change it back, but, is it possible that the ancestors you traced are from a different Brandau? Vulturell 04:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi I think the Brandeaux thing possibly came from Brando himself perhaps as he felt it was fashionable to be French, also I think he felt close to France as it is his Tahitian wife's language which he learnt, and his daughter went to school there, but like many people in reality they don't know much past their grandparents. I know for certain about his tree as I have his grandfather Eugene Brando on the census stating he was born NY which ties in with the tree I have, and this Eugene had an uncle Marlon in NY so that pretty much makes it certain. Arnie587 17:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Charles R. Redford Sr.

Do you have a source for the birth place of Charles R. Redford, Sr.? All I can find is

"November 1914 in Rhode Island"

WikiDon 09:43, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well first and foremost, I remember reading in a book bio that one of his parents was several-generations American, and the other was an immigrant from either Scotland or Ireland (I didn't remember which so I added "British Isles"). This geneology of his (http://www.genealogy.com/famousfolks/robertr/d0/i0000002.htm#s2) goes down his mother's ancestry (which is mostly English-American) for several generations, but doesn't list the date or place of when his father was born - which is a good sign for that website that he wasn't born in the U.S. and they can't track his geneology.

Also, Robert Redford is mentioned in this article about "Irish Americans" - "The remarkable contributions of these immigrants and their children, from Civil War generals to Robert Redford;" (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:znN--DIiMWcJ:www.hlla.com/catalog/irisham.html+%22Robert+redford%22+immigrant&hl=en), seeming to indicate that at least one of Redford's parents is an immigrant. I am going to see if I can find that book or another one again and make sure. Vulturell 21:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Robert De Niro

Hi I have a tree for him too :) His paternal grandfather Henry De Niro was Italian, his paternal grandmother was Helen O'Reilly who was Irish, his maternal grandfather was Donald Admiral whse father was Dutch, mother was Virginian mixed French/British, his maternal grndmother was Alison Groman (orig Grohndeidrich) who has all Germn ancestry so basically he is 1/4 Italian 1/4 Irish 1/4 German 1/8 Dutch 1/8 French-British mix Arnie587 17:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I am surprised that all the web bios always delight in saying he is "1/4 Italian and 3/4 Irish" (including the IMDB, which is now running on a virtual "wrong" streak in so many actor profiles). No other site ever mentions this other ancestry of his, so I guess it's good thing that we can start with Wikipedia. Vulturell 21:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] adding people to Catholic category

Hi I notice you are adding people to this category, I think people should only be in this category if there is evidence they are actually practicing catholics, or they were when they died. I don't know of any evidence that Jack Nicholson is practicing Catholic or Ethel Barrymore was when she died please tell me the source for this. Thanks Arnie587 15:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly. It's from a website called Adherents.com. Here are the links for both of them: http://www.adherents.com/people/pb/Ethel_Barrymore.html http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Jack_Nicholson.html It says Barrymore was a practisin Catholic and Nicholson was raised fairly Catholic, but is in "inactivity" right now. Vulturell 22:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

OK I had been doubtful as I had thought Ethel's mother was Irish protestant, which she was originally but according to imdb [3] she converted to Catholicism from the influence of the Polish actress Helena_Modjeska. I just added a bit about Barry Manilow as his paternal grandmother was Irish Catholic Arnie587 01:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure it was his paternal grandmother who was Irish? I remember reading on Jewhoo (back when it was still active) that it was his paternal grandfather who was Irish. Their son (Barry's father) took his mother's name, "Pincus". I'm going to try and re-verify this. Vulturell 02:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, yes his father was Harold Lawrence Pincus b.Brooklyn 1920, son of Harry Pincus and Anna Sheehan who was Irish. Harry left and Anna remarried Mr.Keliher who was Irish, she brought her son Harold up Catholic. Arnie587 11:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Heinlein

Hi. I noticed you had deleted Robert Heinlein from the category of "Hugo Winning Authors" and "People from Missouri", and added him to the category "Baptists". I don't know whether Heinlein was a Baptist; I do know he was from Missouri and won multiple Hugo Awards. I have therefore reverted your edits. Thanks. Brandon39 17:06, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

You missed something there - I didn't take him out of those two categories, I simply alphabetized all the categories and added "Baptists" (which he was born into). If you check my old edit the two categories you mentioned were still there, only now they were alphabetically in the right place.

Vulturell 22:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right; I did miss that. However, there's nothing in the article to support adding Category Baptist, so I've deleted it. If you can provide documentation to add to the article to justify that categorization, I'll be fine with it, though. IMHO, being born into a Baptist family is not enough. If you revert it again, please initiate discussion on Heinlein's talk page explaining why you think it is appropriate. Brandon39 23:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I have also done the same with Bill Haley. I have extensive information on him but nothing that says he was a Baptist. In fact I have information that says he was more likely Roman Catholic. You're welcome to reinstate the category but you should add a source for this. Thanks. (PS. I won't revert your alphabetizing the categories - no objections there). 23skidoo 01:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I notice a lot of the categories for many people are very scrambled alphabetically, I think it's always good to alphabetize. Anyway, I added a link for Haley (on the History for his entry). Vulturell 02:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I know a couple of his children so I'm going to ask them if they can verify. The fact his mom played in a Baptist church isn't necessarily an indicator that Haley himself was a Baptist. But thanks for providing the link. I'll let you know what I find. 23skidoo 02:59, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Links to disambiguation pages

Hi Vulturell, It's generally considered bad form to link to disambiguation pages like American. (Sorry to nag, I was doing some work for the disambiguation cleanup project, and I noticed a few new ones from you.) Jewish-American should either be Jewish-American (my preference) or Jewish-American. Thanks! Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:11, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Will do from now on. Vulturell 05:38, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher Lee

Hi what is your source that Christopher Lee's grandfather was the italian ambassador, as far as I know it was his cousin who was the ambasssador. Arniep 12:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC) (Arnie587)

It's kind of unclear sometimes, but I changed it to his mother coming "from an Italian family of noble bloodlines", I think that's more interesting. 18:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)~

Hi I have a done a little research his mother was the only daughter of Major Frank James Carandini of the 8th Hussars and 5th Lancers (British army), 11th Marquess of Sarzano. His father Geoffrey Trollope Lee was the youngest son of Colonel Ellis Lee. Arniep 22:39, 15 October 2005 (UTC) (Arnie587)

Was his (maternal) grandmother Italian too? Vulturell 05:20, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

it's quite probable she wasn't, her name was Florence Annie and she was born in Hammersmith, London c.1858 so C. Lee is probably only 1/8 Italian Arniep 01:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC) (Arnie587)

Darn. This once again shows how quickie web profiles can be misleading. Most say that his "mother was Italian" without further specification. I'm glad we can provide the correct info at Wikipedia. Vulturell 05:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

His maternal grandmother plus a detailed Italian family tree going back to 1400s is here [4]. His grandmother was Florence Clemenston (more likely Clemenson or Clementson) which is very much an English name. Arniep 21:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Keira Knightley's mother

Hi There is a picture of her here [5]. I don't have the source but the whole Black Irish/Scottish thing is a myth invented by certain Victorian writers. Red hair and blue eyes in Scotland and Ireland probably come from Viking genes, where the Vikings didn't get to on the west of Scotland and Ireland there are more people with darker features Arniep 22:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. She is pretty dark looking and I assume Keira's dark looks come from her as well. Soo.... does that mean the IMDB was wrong again? (they should Wikipidize)

well Keira might have said it, so you could mention in the article with a caveat of my explanation.

BTW, I was wondering, might you have some sort of a family tree for Evan Rachel Wood? I.e. I know her father's name is Ira David Wood III and I imagine his father was Ira David Wood II. It may help with the Roger Moore / how Jewish is she questions. Vulturell 07:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid not, as she hasn't been famous for long, no one has done any research yet. Arniep 21:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

hmm I suppose that doesn't stop me from doing a bit :) Ancestry.com or Rootsweb is usually a good place to look, so far I found a pedigree of Evan's grandfather Ira David Wood II here [6] most of the names look British. Arniep 21:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Very nice, thank you. It looks like the family really has been in North Carolina for a long time! "Holt" kinda sounds Germanic and "Daniel" is Biblical but usually English, I guess. It is probably Evan's mother who is Jewish, which takes out the Roger Moore blood relation possiblity. Vulturell 02:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

or it could be Ira David Wood III's mother. Arniep 18:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't know if Keira said it or not. The IMDB is really not to be trusted, they rarely check up anything people submit to them. Vulturell 02:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

maybe she probably did say it because it's not the sort of thing anyone would bother making up. Arniep 18:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe. Vulturell 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bridget Moynahan

I have read sources that have said Bridget Moynahan is of Iranian background, since you claim to be the expert on this, can you clear it up?

Do you have the link to those sources? It's just I could not find anything about an Iranian background for her. I did find an interview with "Irish Abroad" magazine (which I can't access without subscribing to its site - http://www.irishabroad.com/irishworld/irishamericamag/decjan05/features/bridgetmoynahan.asp) which seems to indicate she's at least part Irish. But nothing about an Iranian background. Vulturell 21:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC) 21:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

She's also featured in this "Proudly Irish" listing of celebrities (ygp.channel.aol.com/aolvisions/if/ifirish ). Not all of these people are 100% Irish, though (Diane Keaton is half English, Harry Connick Jr. is half Jewish) but I'd need to see a good source about Moynahan's mother (I would guess) being Iranian before putting it in. Vulturell 03:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CrystalCherry

I'm impressed by the necessary actions you have taken for the CrystalCherry article. You have my utmost support! Kahlen 07:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! I can't believe this has been online since AUGUST. Are there any similar self-made articles by "upcoming talents" out there?Vulturell 07:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Not that I know of. If there is, they're "hiding" pretty well. Kahlen 07:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

You edited the CrystalCherry article in the middle of my voting in its AfD debate, taking out pretty much all of the content. That misled me into thinking it was a mostly content-free article. I later changed my vote and the reasoning for it. Is there a real reason why you did that, or are you simply vandalising? — JIP | Talk 18:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism, he doesn't like her for some reason. It;s very pety —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs)

I did it because none of the information I took out can be confirmed anywhere - except on the person's official website. I mean all the information from feuds to birth date to just about anything you can randomly pick out in the article. I am going to take it out again - I believe it is Wikipedia's policy to revert any information that can not be proven to be true. Vulturell 18:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your reply. This has created a rather unfortunate situation - if the information is kept, the article is non-verified. If it is taken out, the article is fairly content-free and almost qualifies for speedy deletion. This causes a lock-in situation that I'm not sure I can handle myself. — JIP | Talk 18:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Not a big problem - I'll take out just enough of the article (like the out-right brain-numbing sections like "Feuds"). Anyway - the votes are clearly going for "Delete", and unless anyone can present any evidence this person exists - to any degree - in the public eye - we should delete it as soon as possible.Vulturell 18:54, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian

Hello! Just to let you know that there's no article for Canadian — it redirects to Canada, which is why it wasn't linked in Corey Haim. The same goes for Jewish, which redirects to Jew (as a rule of thumb, there are very, very few Wikipedia articles with adjectives as titles). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! I use these terms a lot so it's good to know.Vulturell 05:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hi, Category:Jewish_American_actors has been nommed for deletion see Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_2#Category:Jewish_American_actors. I think it is OK to list people under the right ethnic category which I don't argue with. But I think having people in the Jewish American actors category who don't identify as jewish is kind of silly if they are also French or something else. To solve this anomoly I think we need to split the xxx-American categories and have categories Americans of xxx descent for people who don't identify as xxx-American, i.e. for Robert De Niro we will move him to the Italian American category as he identifies as that, but move or rename the other parts to Americans of German descent, Americans of Irish descent or something similar. I think we need to do this as Wikipedia needs to be factually accurate and xxx-American is a label which people describe themselves as, if they don't use that we shouldn't just force it on them we should move them to Americans of xxx descent /Americans of xxx ancestry /Americans with xxx ancestry? What do you think? Arniep 23:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Another good example of this is Jack Nicholson who in theory could think of himself as Italian American but, as is usually the case he identifies with the origin of his surname Nicholson, which was Irish (his mother's name). Also Tyrone Power thought of himself as Irish American because his name came from Ireland but he was more French but did not identify with that so he should be in Americans of French descent or similar cat as well as Irish American. Arniep 23:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, we don't really know - for most cases - what where and how these people identify as. The difference between religion and ethnicity is that you can identify with one religion and change your religion and whatnot, but ethnicity is a constant that a person can't change and most people don't necessarily pick an ethnicity they identify with. You used DeNiro - how do we know he identifes as Italian? All we know is that most people think he's Italian, but I doubt he thinks of himself as "Italian" or "Irish" or "Dutch" or anything else in particular. Or at least I've never seen any evidence to show this. I think creating separate categories like "Americans of something descent" and "something-Americans" is just going to confuse people, who won't know what the difference is. I think we should just use the simple rule, if someone is 1/4 or more of whichever ethnicity, let them be listed under that. That limits a person to 4 categories (i.e. someone like Val Kilmer, who has about a dozen different backgrounds, won't be listed under any category at all).

As for Jewish American actors, it is true that it's an annoying category considering there is no "Italian American actors" category (then again there is no "Jewish American politicians" category, yet there is a "Roman Catholic politicians" one). I don't feel strongly about this, but I won't mind if Jewish American actors is deleted, and the simpler "Jewish Americans" is kept.

Back to the first topic - I have no clue what Nicholson identifies as and it's hard to find out. I really doubt he thinks of himself as Italian or Irish or Dutch specifically - and that's exactly why we should just list him under the 3 categories and leave it be. And we are talking about super-famous actors here, what about lesser ones - where do even start knowing how they identify?Vulturell 00:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Vulturell, thanks for your message. I think the problem is as some people pointed out when I created the Irish British category, people who may have an Irish forebear may not identify as "Irish British" so maybe it is not encyclopedic to use that wording (I am going to change people in Irish British to People of Irish descent in Great Britain). The point I was trying to make was some people are clearly Jewish American like Leonard Nimoy or Woody Allen, whereas with some people it is less certain they identify as that because they are not fully jewish, like Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford or Michael Douglas. Therefore I think it would be much less POV where we are uncertain a person identifies with a certain ethnicity to move them to new categories Americans of xxx descent or similar which cannot be seen to place labels on people. Arniep 12:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, "people of ---- descent" and "---- Americans" kind of sounds the same, if anything - and in fact they kind of mean the same thing. Again, we don't know exactly how people identify for most cases and people's identification changes all the time. If we create these categories then, nevermind the viewers, users won't know what the heck to make of them and we are going to end up with people who have a few varieties of categories and confusion. How do we know Douglas identifies as Jewish less than DeNiro or even, say, the 1/4 Italian DiCaprio, identify as Italians? We don't.

Our problem is that we can't possibly measure this - it's a matter of opinion. Ethnicity, i.e. "something-Americans", should and can be a matter of encylcopedic precision. What if someone who is, say, 1/16th Native American, identifies as Native Amercan? Do they suddenly get listed under "Native Americans"? It is only encyclopedic to do this kind of thing by exact ethnic breakdown, i.e. my 1/4 rule. I find most people are comfortable with that, although (sigh) as usual there is particular (very ANNOYING) sensitivity to Jewish Americans then to any other ethnic group. I bet you a shiny penny no one would hesitate to list Ford under full on "Irish-Americans" - even though ethnically speaking he is only 1/4 Irish yet people are bothered by "Jewish Americans" for him. Anyway, I don't know if I've convinced you, but I just think this is a very, very, very, very bad idea. I like the categories the way they are now and the only change I would make is merging Jewish Americans and Jewish American actors if people don't like the Actors category.Vulturell 19:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, the point is xxx American is a label and therefore WP:POV and should not be in an encyclopedia. Your own arguments point out how people throw their arms up when you add xxx American to a person that they always thought was some other ethnicity (like when I added German American to Robert De Niro). This would all be solved by changing these categories to Americans of xxx descent or Americans with xxx ancestry which is WP:NPOV and people can't complain we are labelling them something they don't identify with. Arniep 20:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You are confusing what people think of certain actors and what the actors think of themselves. People throw their arms up (as I regrettably did) because most sites either label DeNiro as Italian or mostly Irish and a little Italian. That is his 'public image' and the facts surrounding his background on the internet are mostly incorrect. An encyclopedia should look at the facts, not the what people are believe are the facts. The people who threw up their arms believed the German info to be incorrect - but it was correct, and I am very happy that you added it because now people can find out the full story on DeNiro. It is precisely because DeNiro is not just Italian or Irish that the German catgory should be added, to shed some light and tell the whole story that most people don't know about. That is the only NPOV way to do it. And there is no way in heck that I am going to let you put DeNiro under "Italian Americans" but say, Harrison Ford or Michael Douglas as "People of Jewish Descent". We should use these labels the same way the US Census would use them - when they count up their Italians, Irish, and Jewish populations and come up with the numbers. We can start getting into discussions about "how Italian" DeNiro considers himself to be or "how Jewish" Douglas thinks he is, but at the end of the day any concensus we come up with is going to be either my POV, yours, or someone else's. Not a neutral way. A neutral way would do this mathematically - "add up the numbers" on someone's background and list them regardless of public image, self-identification and identification by others - like a catalogue with a set of rules that is used for every person.:::People have got no clue what DeNiro, Douglas or anyone else identify as, or even know their full background. They come here with their own perceptions and sometimes incorrect knowledge, and it is our job to give them the full, equal story so they know better and have the full info, not just their own perceptions of what DeNiro's background should be.Vulturell 20:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I have thought about it and the only fair thing to do is to change all the xxx American categories to Americans with xxx ancestry as xxx American implies a greater connection than is often the case. People apply the xxx America label because it fits them for whatever reason, fashion, circle of friends whatever, however it is inaccurate and misleading and it shouldn't be in an encyclopedia. Arniep 13:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I have got no problem with this (aside from the wordiness of this longer label). If we have this one consistant form of labeling for all ethnicities, then it sounds fine to me. BTW, I would still like to use the 1/4 rule in order to keep the number of categories reasonable. The 1/4 rule should probably be made mention of on every ethnicity page, that way I won't have to spend my days taking out Norwegian-americans from Paris Hilton.Vulturell 18:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I have been thinking about this, and I have seen a problem with my idea, specifically for the Jewish American category. For example, for Americans who identify as jewish now people might think it very strange that they are in a category of Americans of Jewish descent, which of course would also be totally inaccurate for Jewish converts such as Marilyn Monroe. Therefore I think we need to make a exception to keep the Jewish American category but either include only religious jews or people who are fully jewish. Also maybe we could keep the xxx American categories for few people who are actually born in xxx but became U.S. citizens? What you think? Arniep 20:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

We should probably make a "Converts to Judaism" category and put in Monroe, Davis Jr. and the few others who are converts and leave that as the only category they are in, besides of course Norwegian-Americans for Monroe, etc. (similar to my "Followers Of Kabbalah" category, which has about 5 people in it). Obviously we can't make any exceptions for an ethnic Jewish category, it should have the same rules as any other ethnic category. There are very few people who were born in xxx under say, "Norwegian Americans" - maybe 1 or 2. BTW, "Americans of xxx descent" frankly would sound the same as "xxx-Americans" to most people, I don't think anyone would mind if you change the name. "Jewish Americans" already says "people of ethnic Jewish descent" as its descrption, so it should just continue to function as that, using the same rules as any other people of xxx descent. In fact, I am going to create that convert category now and see if it sticks. That should take care of Monroe, etc.Vulturell 20:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I really think an exception has to be made with Jewish Americans due to it having a religious aspect. I don't think we could argue against someone creating Baptist Americans, Roman Catholic Americans categories so I think Jewish Americans has to stay. Arniep 23:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You know, some days I wish whoever created all the English version names for the ethnicities, religions and cultures of the world was nice enough to give a separate name for ethnic Jewish and religious Jews. Life as a Wikipedia editor in this area would be so incredibly simpler, I tell you. Maybe in 300 years we can use the term "Israeli Americans" for ethnic Jews. But I still don't believe we can have "Jewish Americans" and "Americans of Jewish descent" exist at the same time. We would cause incredible confusion to viewers and editors, who won't know what the heck to make of it and we'd probably end up with a lot of people under both categories and much debate about who qualifies. "Jewish American" in itself denotes an ethnicity (i.e. xxx-American) as opposed to religion ("Roman Catholics", "Latter Day Saints", "Presbyterians" are the category names, without mention of country). I guess you could create "Jews" in the same manner (or "Religious Jews") but again, it is also confusing. The problem remains and, as long as there are no two separate names for the religion and the ethnicity (unless we use "Israeli-American" for ethnic Jews, which is a weird but somehow accurate possibility) there will always be confusion. There is no easy solution. Are you really going to try and change "xxx-American" to "people of xxx descent", btw? It just seems kinda redundant - I don't think there's a huge problem with this. As with all sensitive topics, there will be complaints and differing views sometimes, but I think in general everything is fine as it is now, and especially with the new Converts to Judaism category making it easy to differentiate non-ethnic Jews and ethnic Jews.Vulturell 06:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure about changing the cats. Anyway thanks for the backup on De Niro. I don't think it is encyclopedic to state ethncity or religion instead of nationality. If you look up people on Britannica they always state nationality first. I am going to go through the cats trying to change these, please help if you have time, also maybe it would be worth applying to make it policy. How did you find the name of Alicia Silverstone's mom BTW- are you sure the spelling isn't Redford as that is a Scottish name, Radford is usually English? Regards Arniep 22:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I Followed your advice and went to Rootsweb. Her LA birth certificate is there - a long with a lot of other actors (which I am now updating - you probably noticed). The spelling was "Radford" on the certificate. If you're a subscriber (I think you are) it's under "Find your ancestors in birth, death, marriage, etc." records.Vulturell 22:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not a subscriber unfortunately :( I just had a free trial. Is the actual certificate shown or just a transcription of it as an "a" can look a lot like an "e" in some peoples writing. I just had a look at some of your contribs can you try and move out the ethnicity information from the header like I did on one your edits Giovanni_Ribisi. Thanks Arniep 22:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I have a free trial too, actually - right now (day 3). Just a transcription of the certificate. And I'll try.Vulturell 22:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah so it could be Redford which would make more sense. Arniep 23:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I guess. I don't know. lol... I don't care all that much - if you want to, change it. It doesn't make a huge difference.Vulturell 23:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew

Hi McConaughey is Scottish originally, but that spelling is only really found in Northern Ireland. It's original spelling is Mcconachie in Scotland. McCabe could be Scottish or Northern Irish. Arniep 00:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should remove both until we know for sure? I have additional info if you're interested - his mother's parents were George Glynn Mccabe and Maxine Corrick.Vulturell 00:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

hmmm Glynn or Corrick could be Scottish Welsh Cornish or Irish :-)Arniep 01:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed! Vulturell 01:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Ancestry confirms McConaughey is Northern Irish only. As a lot of Irish Americans intermarried in the past, it would seem to make sense that both his parents could have had similar ethnic backgrounds. Arniep 01:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My Articles

You could less if it's true, even when 100 percent verified you want to delete, please get a real job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 November 2005.

Please learn to write in proper English.Vulturell 00:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Really clever, you've been reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 November 2005.

What does that mean? I removed information which A. could not be verified to be true and B. was poorly worded, not to mention C. too long and not entirely relevant to the section. Oh, and grand reporter that you are, be kind enough to report your name and sign your posts. Vulturell 03:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gregory Peck

There is an ancestral tree here [http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=geolarson2&id=I099611 ]. A Samuel Gregory Peck was born 1865 in the Luton district of England. Arniep 00:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

So this means I was right? The Armenian thing is a rumour?Vulturell 00:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well if it was true you would have thought someone would have traced him back to his Armenian roots and it would be all over the net. Even this List_of_Armenians insists he was fluent in Armenian! Arniep 00:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent... I hate being wrong.Vulturell 01:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Consequently, I took Peck out of that list. I hate how a lot of these lists just list the person and don't specify i.e. Peck on that list, makes it seems like Peck is 100% Armenian. Same for Michael Vartan, who is probably just 1/8th Armenian. I guess that I am going to have to work on fixing up the specifics of these lists sooner or later.Vulturell 05:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I searched both recent bios on Amazon and neither say anything about him having Armenian ancestors so looks like someone made it up. Arniep 21:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Gee, THAT would be a first. You know, I am really happy because right now, Wikipedia is, unquestionably, the single best site for this kind of info (celebrity background + religion) on the net. Some info you can't find anywhere else on the net, and the correct stories on just about everyone. It's not a great or much celebrated honor, but it's still something.Vulturell 21:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandal

I've blocked Maikaro (talk · contribs), Wengcheng (talk · contribs), and YJ (talk · contribs), who are all obviously the same person. He has been fraudulently vandalizing page by adding false information. I note you've reverted him several times (at Anna Paquin, etc). If you see similar activity again from a new user please let me or another admin know. This type of user can be very harmful to the project. Thanks for your efforts to keep the encyclopedic correct. -Willmcw 01:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me. I'll report any similar vandals from now on.Vulturell 01:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a good place to do so. Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Obsession with ethnic identification

What is the story with your need to identify Americans of European descent with their specific ethnic backgrounds in the introduction of articles? It's enough to say someone is American in an intro paragraph. If you want to break it down for us later in the article, feel free. It's silly and overly PC (or something - I don't know what your intention is) to call someone like Debbie Reynolds, about as American as they come, an "English American" in an intro paragraph. I'm going to take your changes to so many articles to Request for Comments if you don't explain and clarify what you're doing. Moncrief 04:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Umm... that's what I did. Fisher's references were not in the beginning/introduction of the article, they were under the separate early life section, where they belong. I don't know why people aren't fond of the "English Americans" (which I didn't even create) category, but it went through an AfD and passed. People like John Wayne, who are also certainly as American as they come in terms of how many generations his family has been here (but is of Scottish and Irish ancestry rather than English), have had their background listed for a long time (and there was even some sort of debate on Talk:John Wayne about his exact origin). I don't know why Reynolds is that different, especially since the reference was under the correct section, and not in the opening/introduction.Vulturell 07:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I really think you're missing the point. Which is: On first reference, it's not helpful to call someone like Debbie Reynolds an "English American." She didn't identify with England. There is nothing "English" about her. Her ancestors may have come from England, but how is this relevant to her identity, or relevant enough to put in the first sentence about her? We don't call various English people "Jute-English" or "Saxon-English" or however far back you want to trace their ancestry, or to use an even better example, we don't call Australians in Wikipedia "English-Australians," which would be a lot more relevant in many cases than calling Debbie Reynolds (or however many other people you've applied this term to) an "English American." Put her ancestry far down in the article, I don't care. Putting it in the first line is distracting and unnecessary and I know I can build a consensus for that position if you won't stop. I will take this to RfC when I have time. Also, could you please reply on people's own talk pages the way other Wikipedians do, instead of here? Moncrief 06:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the "double standard" of whether or not "visible minorities" (not my favorite term, but the most direct one) should be referred to in the first line about them on Wikipedia as "African American" or so on - no, I don't believe they should. The first line in a Wikipedia biography article is the place to give the most general introduction to a person's life: birthdate, nationality, and what they're famous for. If I had my druthers, all Americans on Wikipedia would be described in the first line as "American" with further information to follow.

Again, I am not saying omit entirely the reference to someone's ancestry from Wikipedia. Keep it in. Put it in the Biography section, if it floats your boat to do so, that Debbie Reynolds' or whoever's great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents came from England (as long as you're sure some weren't from Wales or Scotland - are you?). But there isn't any reason whatsoever to put in the first sentence information about an American's ancestry, particularly when the ancestry was not at all relevant to the person's own life. And yes, I'd say the same about the first line of any Wikipedia article about any person, although it's especially egregious in the cases in which you're modifying longstanding articles in a stubborn way. Moncrief 06:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

pardon me for jumping in. We've been discussing a related issue on Talk:Anderson Cooper (of all places). I think that there is a key issue here. If people's ancestors have been in America for several generations then they become American. For example, my last British ancestor entered this country in the mid-18th century, well over six generations ago (don't have the exact number at hand). Even if a number of my ancestors passed through the British Isles (whose population has changed a few times) the most recent ancestors were all born in the U.S. Do I know that they spent six generations in Britain? Did they come from somewhere else before that? Is "English" an ethnicity while "American" is not? I suggest that we use the threshold that Vulturell suggested elsewhere - one quarter. If a person's grandparents were born in foreign countries then apportion out the national/ethnic categories accordingly. Descendants of American grandparents should be called Americans. -Willmcw 10:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I was referring to 1/4 of ethnicity, not nationality. But I'll bring up an interesting question about your theory. Think about it this way - this category - "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_Americans" - lists people whose families have been in the U.S.A. for a very long time as well, with no recent identifiable immigrants for most of them. Yet they are still listed under that ethnic group - double standard?Vulturell 18:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe they should be treated the same way. The standard should be consistent, but it shouldn't be a "one drop rule." -Willmcw 20:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

So you're saying we should de-list most people from categories like African American Musicians, African American Athletes, etc. unless they have an African-born grandparent?Vulturell 20:33, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm saying that a number of editors have questioned your categorization project, and some better guidelines may be needed. For example, "African" is no more an ethnicity than "European" is. We could merge all the "European-Americans" together into one category, and that would be the equivalent category. -Willmcw 21:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, as I said on the Cooper page, the biggest questioning is in reference to the "English Americans" category and what it really means. And as I said on the Cooper page I will use more discretion for "English Americans" but I still think it is a valid and logical category. That is correct about African-Americans vs. European Americans, BUT, we don't have a category of "European-American musicians", do we? Anyway, I have no problem with any of the African American categories as they are now, I'm just saying the "English Americans" cat can and should be treated with the same standards.Vulturell 21:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The "same standard" would be for people of English descent to be called "European Americans". Personally, I don't think we should have "African-American musicians" - those should be separate categories, in my view. Neither should we have "Episcopalian musicians", "Left-handed musicians", "LGBT musicians" etc. However people seem to like these combined categories. -Willmcw 21:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, a lot of the people under African-American Musicians aren't listed under just "African Americans", so it's a way to cut down certain categories - and as someone mentioned elsewhere, there is a distinct culture of African-American musicians that there wouldn't necessarily be in, say, Episcopalian musicians. But I guess we're not debating the validity of this category now, anyway.Vulturell 21:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The "category:____ occupation" seems ingrained - all I can hope for is to see the category system revised someday. Returning to an earlier point, you say that "English Americans" is a valid and logical category. May I ask for whom? Bob Hope was born in England and spent most of his life in the U.S. - Is that his category? Cooper's English ancestors left that place at least three generations before his birth, so does it still apply to him? If Derek Laud immigrated to the U.S., would he become an English American? What about Theresa Heinz, is she an African American? Ethnic, national, and religious breakdowns are tricky, and do not necessarily lend themselves to neat divisions, so I wonder what plan you are operating with.

I have to admit I have no strong feelings to wards "Category... occupation". Sometimes it just comlicates things, because logically someone like say, John Kerry, does have to be listed under BOTH "Roman Catholics" and "Roman Catholic politicians" (not to mention under Jewish Americans and English Americans for his ethnicity). "English Americans", as I typically use it, describes people of ethnic English descent (since the term ---- - American in itself denotes specifically ethnicity). I have to tell you that Hope would be under Welsh-Americans as well as English Americans, because his father was Welsh and his mother English. If he was a naturalized citizen of the U.S. it would qualify him to be under an ---- - American category (his birthplace is irrelevant). So we don't get people of English ethnicity who were born in India's English colonies described as "Indian Americans" (this reference is true not only for their ethnicity but for their culture, obviously ethnically English Indians are far closer to English-born English in culture than to Indians). Theresa Heinz is a Portuguese-American, pure and simple. Her ethnicity, culture and no doubt language of birth are all Portuguese. If Derek Laud became a U.S. citizen then I don't see why he wouldn't be "English American".::These breakdown are tricky, yes, but - if we use a distinct, ethnicity (which most often ends up co-relating with cultural background as well)-based listings then it all becomes simpler.Vulturell 09:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Haha, you got me. I didn't know who Derek Laud was beyond glancing over his picture-less Wiki entry (not too closely) and I was wondering what the "trick" in using him as an example was. I finally figured it out, image googled his name, and was right. Well, he would definitely be under African-Americans. It would be arguable whether he is an English-American, but he would probably have to be listed under English Americans as well.Vulturell 09:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply, but we're still dancing around the issue. The current category names do not distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. So the categories don't reflect, in one example, that Bob Hope was of Welsh ethnicity but UK nationality. Heinz is of Mozambique (now American) nationality but Portugese ethnicity (but not Portugese-American ethnicity). The categories don't properly distinguish these differences, not establish criteria for what constitutes an "ethnicity". I think we need to find a forum to thrash out these issues generally. -Willmcw 09:36, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, you said it, Heinz is of American nationality and Portuguese ethnicity, hence Portuguese-American. Back when she was of Mozambique nationality, she'd be a Portuguese-Mozambique. By the way, I am pretty sure her mother is not Portuguese - her last name is "Thierstein" - maybe German or something? As for the categories, we could/should/will put in a defintion to every one, so people will know what they mean. Now, of course, you could tell me that people may not be completely sure what they mean just by looking at the category name and not clicking on the category and reading the description, but I'd bring up the point that there are plenty such categories, i.e. "Old Dragons" (for Emma Watson). I don't think many people would know what an "Old Dragon" is in the sense that Watson is just by looking at the name.Vulturell 19:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Why does Heinz lose her Mozambique nationality by moving to the U.S.? As for the "hyphenated American" categories, they have internal definitions of a sort. Some are categorized as ethnicities and others as nationalities, some are both. It isn't apparent by the name of the category which it will be. Perhaps two parallel sets of categories need to created - one for nationalities and one for ethnicities. For example, "Irish-American" would be used for those born in Ireland who have settled in the U.S., while "Americans of Irish descent" would be the category used for those born in the U.S. Do you think that would be practical? -Willmcw 21:23, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Logically that may well make sense, but it would just never work. "African-American" or "Irish-American" are commonly used and accepted terms for people of American birth but African or Irish descent. Here's my proposal - just list foreign-borns under "Naturalized Citizens of the U.S." (as they already are) and usually leave it at that. We would confuse a large amount of people by using the two separate categories that you proposed. In my understanding, "xxx-American" means ethnicity-nationality. Heinz wouldn't be Mozambique-American because that's like "Nationality-Nationality", rather than "Portuguese-Americans" - "Ethnicity-Nationality". It sounds more complicated than it is. I think I may check out all the categories and see what definition they give out, and maybe adjust it to fit this ethnicity-nationality system. I just think it's the only logical way.Vulturell 23:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The truth about CrystalCherry (well, possibly) :)

You'll like this one. Take a look at the last few posts in this BandAMP.com thread - [7]. Makes interesting reading, no? Looks like we were right all along about Ms. Burns... :) --Kurt Shaped Box 23:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I did like that one. I really had absolutely no doubt that CrystalCherry did not exist (I wouldn't have pursued her page's extermination with such determinaton otherwise). I find it annoying that she still adds her name to a couple of articles and then complains of vandalism when it's removed. Anyway, I'm glad someone else is keeping up with her malevolent activities :)....Vulturell 05:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Because some moron posts something in a forum, and it's proof now. You just love that so-and-so avril. And you refuse to face the facts. Cherryrain

Avril Lavgine is a great singer. That wasn't proof, but it sure as heck is better than anything you've presented, and a lot more amusin' to read, too.Vulturell 07:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

What 'facts'? --Kurt Shaped Box 11:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Jews

Well done - I had just seen the AFD tag and was about to remove it. There seems to be a sudden wave of attacks on these lists - see e.g. List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (which has also previously survived an AFD) and Category:Jewish chess players.
RachelBrown 09:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if my talk page is a good place for a general discussion, so I'm putting this on the talk pages of Vulturell and Arniep. Yes, I'm all for a list of converts; easy enough to copy the category into a list. Watch, though, for shouts that the category duplicates the list or vice versa. Actually, the administrator I had in mind was User:A Man In Black for restoring the AfD on the list of Jewish fellows of the RSS. - RachelBrown 21:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Crystalcherry

Crystalcherry has been recreated, I believe it lacks notability as per the previous AfD. I got involved in this when User:Cherryrain went "Opps", twice on Avril Lavigne and then requested my assistance after I reverted. I suspect this user has been biten/slighted by the AfD, and is not acting entirely in good faith. Cherryrain mentioned User:Drini's agreement for a rewrite; I'm not optimistic that will be sufficient to satisfy all users involved in this issue. (suggest replies/discussion should be directed to Talk:Crystalcherry) (CC'd to multiple users) - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 05:59, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely outrageous! Never mind notablity, we can't confirm this person even exists in any source beside her website or message boards. This should be deleted immediately. IMMEDIATELY.Vulturell 06:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree with you 100% there - if CR can provide proof that this person is notable, then I will be happy to drop my ojections. As it stands now, I am inclined to believe that CR is editing in bad faith. --Kurt Shaped Box 11:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Billy Wilder

Be careful - you listed him as being the child of Max Wilder and Eugene Dittler. "Eugene" is a male name; his mother was Eugenia Dittler. DS 14:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Aniston

Hi, to deal with this problem just cite Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) (I already changed the article and posted on talk). Arniep 18:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, you might want to have a go at Nancy Dow which I tagged for cleanup. I noticed you added Jewish British in the header for Rachel Stevens which someone removed, I guess that was a mistake? Arniep 18:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

do you still have a subscription to Ancestry, if so you might be able to work out which of these are Aniston's gr. grandparents [8] [9] [10]. Arniep 19:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I know, but you put Jewish British in the header you should just put born to jewish parents after the header, her father was Michael Stevens. Arniep 19:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't believe any of those are Aniston's g-grandparents. First off Rootsweb is pretty bad when it comes to New York and the East Coast. They're good for LA but the Texas records are the best (you get full names of both parents - including middle names, which lets me track someone back something like 3 generations, i.e. that is how I'm sure the Texas-born and bred Jennifer Love Hewitt is not Italian at all). However, in Nancy Dow's book, she refers to her grandpa as a Louis Grieco and her grandmother (believe it or not) a Louise - doesn't mention her last name, but I don't think she was Italian or she would have mentioned that too.Vulturell 19:23, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

the above links are from mormon familysearch, Nancy Dow's mother was Louise Grieco, it doesn't mention the name of her mother so one of those marriages might be correct. I don't think the fact she didn't mention whether the wife of Louis(Luigi) Grieco was Italian means she wasn't, maybe the opposite. If you still have subscription to Ancestry you could solve it by finding Louise Grieco/Greco on the 1920 census probably with her father Louis/Luigi, or as Louise Grieco or Dow with Gordon Dow on the 1930 census (it's not clear whether they married before 1930). Arniep 21:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

What I put in the header was "English actress, singer, etc. of Jewish descent", but I guess that's bad too.Vulturell 19:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

yeah, only really important information should go in the header like birth, nationality, occupation, what they are really famous for. Arniep 21:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, I forgot that the census gives the birthplace of both parents, so we could work out whether Aniston should be in the Italian American category. You can find the parents names, you need to click view image on the search page? Can you check the following entries:

• Louise Greco born abt 1906 living in Hudson, New Jersey
• Louise Greco born abt 1912 living in Kings, New York
• Louise Greco born abt 1913 living in Kings, New York

as well as checking the images for the 3 Louise Griecos

hopefully one of these will say father Luigi/Louis born in Italy. Can you also check all the 9 Gordon Dows on the 1930 census (one has middle name M), then if none have a wife Louise/a, check the Louise Grieco/Greco's on the 1930 (if you have time). Arniep 11:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm just trying

I'm not an expert on Christy Canyon. Read my edit summary. The information was unclear and I noted that it should be taken out until someone could clarify it. Moncrief 03:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wealthy fictional characters

Hi, I'd appreciate your vote on this category. Categories_for_deletion#Category:Wealthy_fictional_characters. Thanks Arniep 14:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tera Patrick

Hi there. Question for you: Why did you remove the female adult bio template from the Tera Patrick page? Was it because it wasn't showing up correctly? Don't worry, I re-added the template into the article again -- so if you have any questions, comments or concerns, please let me know. Thanks! -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 14:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish categories

Thanks for the note about this. I have to say I am against the categories which tie (ethnicity)(country)(occupation) together for the reasons I argued before against Jewish American Actors. However I am pretty annoyed that my Jewish classical musicians cat has been nommed, Jewish peoples contribution to classical music has been very important so definitely deserves acknowledgement. Arniep 14:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irish in American Politics

There is a long history of Irish in American politics. The Irish are well-known for activity in U.S. politics. 70.228.27.161 19:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aniston

Hi, I checked the book and I can't see any indication of where the house of Louis/Luigi Grieco/Greco was. Arniep 22:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Orlando Bloom

I don't know why you think Bloom's biological father would be jewish, Colin isn't a very jewish name, and his mother isn't jewish so there isn't a reason to think would she choose to have an affair with a jewish person over anyone else. If Sean Astin's biological father was ethnically jewish that makes him of part Jewish ethnicity obviously. Arniep 23:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)