User talk:Voxclamans

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Welcome!

Hello, Voxclamans, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  Moreschi Request a recording? 18:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Assuming you are who you say you are, I am delighted to see you at Wikipedia. We need some more people who know what they are talking about. I've replied to your post at Gaetano Guadagni. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 18:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Farinelli and Senesino feedback

Your work on both articles looks excellent to me, unsurprisingly. I don't think anyone's going to complain: in fact, too much more of that and you'll be in danger of getting a barnstar. And I've replied again at the Guadagni talk.

More generally, I think you'll find that coverage of opera singers in general and castrati in particular is not terribly wonderful at Wikipedia, so there's lots of room for you to spread your wings. Category:Castrati contains some not-so-wonderful articles and a fair few that are simply missing. The ones I've written up using New Grove aren't so bad, and you can see which ones they are from the list on my userpage. The only person - little exaggeration - working on these articles up to now has been self, so perhaps little surprise that quantity and quality is lacking in general. As regards 18th-century singers in general, most articles are just absent: no John Beard, no Susanna Cibber, etc. If coverage of Handel's opera team is bad, coverage of his oratorio singers is far worse. So, plenty of room for work. Feel free to experiment, the great thing about Wikipedia is that someone will always come and fix it afterwards. On that note, I'd be dancing jigs around the computer if you decided to join us at Wikipedia's very own Opera Project, which provides a useful place for collaboration on Wikipedia's opera-related topics.

One more thing: a friend of mine, Nick Mitchell, never fails to sing your praises as a countertenor: I don't suppose that long-term you'd consider doing any recordings for Wikipedia? We are always in desperate need of more free-content audio to illuminate our articles. User:Makemi does some recordings of this type, if you want to talk to her about this. This is turning into welcome overload, so I'll stop there.

And memo to self: must remember to buy a copy of your book on Alessandro M. Last time I was at the Handel House it had sold out, annoyingly. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 20:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pacchierotti feedback

Congrats, nice article. I've got no idea why you couldn't find it in a search, maybe just a server lag. Anyway, I created some redirects for the variants of his name, put the article into some categories, and cleaned up the referencing a bit so that it conforms with the current fad for formatting. If you feel like joining WP:WPO at any time just add your username to the "Participants" section on the project page. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 19:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Aye, all your stuff looks good. I liked the rewrite for Alessandro M. To create redirects, if that's what you were asking? Let's say I wanted to create a redirect for Alessandro Moreski to Alessandro Moreschi. I'd go to the redlink - the page that doesn't exist yet - and then add #REDIRECT [[Alessandro Moreschi]]. Then just click save page. WP:REDIRECT might help. There's a list of categories at the bottom of most articles that you can see in the edit window: just add what need adding there. Hope this helps. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 11:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, impressive stuff. It's a fantastic story for Guadagni: is there much probability of it actually being true? That's mostly the reason why I took it out - having put it in in the first place -, but now you've expanded the article so much it's certainly well worth having. I rather feel, on occasion, that it's necessary to include more personal details sometimes when writing singer biographies: articles are rather dull when they read just a recitation of the activities of machines made for singing. Stuff like Gaetano Berenstadt's collections: ditto Senseino, etc.
BTW, when linking words and putting them in italics at the same time, the wikimarks for the italics go outside those for the links: so we get Messiah (Handel), rather than [[Messiah (Handel)]]. I think you made that mistake at Guadagni. But fantastic work, really wonderful. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 13:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and one more thing. Is that Colley Cibber at Valentino Urbani? Grove didn't say which Cibber it was, there seem to have been quite a few. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 13:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks for all your helpful comments. The Guadagni story is likely to be true - Pat Howard quotes it, and she is a very good scholar. Walpole really had it in for G - this wasn't the only time he did him down! As to Cibber and Urbani, I imagine it was Colley, but am not sure. All best, Nick--voxclamans 14:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recordings

Hello, and welcome! Always nice to see another singer. I have done a few recordings for Wikipedia. You can listen to them on our sister-site, at commons:User:Makemi, the top ones are for a sort of Child ballads project I've been working on, the lower ones are more early-music type stuff. I've started setting up a board to coordinate recordings for Wikipedia at Wikipedia:Requested recordings. I've had trouble recording much myself because I've left school and don't have an accompanist here. One thing it would be great if you could do would be Mystery's song from The Fairy-Queen, and I'm sure there are some Handel things which would be helpful, perhaps something from Giulio Cesare? It's best to upload them to commons, since then they can be used on the articles in other languages without being re-uploaded. Any, glad to have you! Mak (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nicholas Clapton

I put up a new article for Nicholas Clapton, but it relies too heavily on your website. Can you add some more independent references with reviews of your singing and some more news articles about you? Also, of course, please fix any inaccuracies that I have introduced. Welcome to WP! -- Ssilvers 23:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I took a look at your changes. A few questions: It says that you "read" music at Magdalen College. For us colonials, what does that mean? I took it to mean "studied" music? Don't you want to say anything about the Locrian Ensemble in the article? Can you specify what/when you sang a the Royal Opera House and other particularly notable venues? Just some thoughts. Again, welcome! -- Ssilvers 13:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Castrato article on Main Page

Don't know if you'll get this by the time it's still there, but Giuseppe Millico was featured in the "Did you know" section of the Main Page today. It's an OK article but a bit on the short side: I don't know whether you'd be able to expand it? Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 22:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem. You should have seen the amount of vandalism like that on April Fools. I reverted nigh on 200 times in one day :) Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 13:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Farinelli revisions

Hi, Nick - I've left the user a note asking them to list their references for us in future (you may like to know that they made a major edit to Francesca Cuzzoni today, along the same lines). That should hopefully do for starters. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 19:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work, we certainly need to know where people are getting their facts from. Hopefully we'll get a good response. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 17:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I now believe the source for this revision to be very good, so have done another revision of my own, including a linguistic/stylistic one. Comments welcome, of course. When I have time, I'll have a look at Cuzzoni.--voxclamans 17:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cuzzoni

It looks very nice, though the prose is still rather on the erratic side and there are one or two things that aren't absolutely neutral, but these are minor quibbles. I'll do a quick cleanup tomorrow once I've recovered from today (5 hours of soul-destroying tennis). Cheers, Moreschi Talk 21:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. That pair of quarrelsome ladies have needed proper attention for quite a while. Thank you so much! I've made one or two minor fixes to each article, but now they really do look superb. Unfortunately, I have the nasty feeling we're going to get drawn into the vexed "wikipolitical" question of WikiProject Biography ratings, which have caused quite a lot of controversy. These "ratings" tend to involve automatic rating by editors who do not know the subject matter, using an automatic set of criteria. As you can see here, I don't want to rate Cuzzoni as B, but I think we may have to for now simply to avoid drama (if you wish, I can point you to some archived discussions: the row over these completely arbitrary and meaningless ratings has been simmering for a good few months). In reality, both of the ladies are A-class, but the robot-like people at the Biography Project won't stomach that (no infobox! Help!). If you want another example, check out the history of Talk:Alfred Deller.
Anyway, this is of minor importance, but I thought I'd better explain the background to what's actually going on. Of greater importance is your expert work here, for which I thank you. BTW, I'll be coming to the talk at the South Bank in September to learn some more wisdom :) Thanks again. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 14:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind comments. I quite see what we're up against with regard to these ratings, a problem with which seems to be that a too-universal set of criteria is being applied. As you rightly say, there's little that can be done about it, and frankly, I know that the quality of both of these (and the others I've had to do with) is good, and that, coupled with the support of Wikipedians such as yourself, for which my continued thanks, is what matters. Please come and introduce yourself to me at the South Bank in September. Btw, someone has now linked me as "voxclamans" to me as me, which might cause some interesting comments to emerge from cyberspace ... or Wiki-space. All best wishes, Nick--voxclamans 21:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caffarelli

FYI, I've done a fairly major upgrade here, but you probably have access to some sources and info that I don't, particularly relating to his castration in childhood. Would you mind having a look? Cheers, Moreschi Talk 13:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful, thank you, that's superb. If you're interested, another one of the "Nearly Handel's Men" articles that really needs sorting out is Gioacchino Conti. I did Anna Maria Strada a while back, but you doubtless have more to add, and, of course, there's always "the Elephant" herself.
I had great fun listening to your talk at the South Bank (particularly your elegant glossing over of the "Guadagni anecdote", Nick Mitchell and I laughed and laughed), and was delighted to meet you afterwards. I look forward to "What delicious horror"! Cheers, Moreschi Talk 22:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's Talk Here

If it's all right with you I thought we could move our discussion here. I have temporarily added your talk page to my watch list. You are correct that Maniaci is a male soprano if any man could use the word. But, I think he is the only man in the world that could call himself that. There hasn't been a singer like him in known history. He doesn't use falsetto at all and he doesn't have the physiological disorders associated with modern castrato (which is what I was referring to by the way with natural upper extension). And of course he isn't castrated. Basically he breaks all the rules. But for anyone else no, simply because all countertenors use falsetto up their (unless they are Maniaci) or a modern castrato. Sopranist is a better word sense it implies use of falsetto. Nrswanson (talk) 09:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The reference to the term contratenor altus being used in Italy and abbrieviated there comes from Stark, James (2003). Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy.
It's fine to "talk" here, of course. I think one thing we all need to remember is that Wikipedia is supposed, by its own rules, to be impartial, and where anything disputatious or contoversial occurs in an article both/all sides of anything should be included. So, Michael Maniaci calls himself a male soprano: I think what that means in his case can be defined, and though one may think that the term "sopranist" is preferable, because it implies falsettist (you make a good point there, one that I hadn't taken on board as such before), can one then say what people "should" call themselves? There are more and more high falsettists who like to call themselves "male soprano" (I've taught several), perhaps feeling that sopranist has the derogatory overtones that "falsettist" still seems to have. To my ear, "sopranist" sounds very un-English, and I prefer to be called a countertenor to "male alto", but I can hardly stop people doing the latter.
I have Stark's book - do you have a page reference?

I have now tried to do an edit of Alto on this page. Tell me what you think (it isn't "wikified" at all in its typography and so forth (no references, for example), but is deliberately neutral and cautious).


Alto is a musical term, derived from the Latin word altus, meaning "high", that has several possible interpretations.

When designating instruments, "alto" frequently refers to a member of an instrumental family that has the second highest range, below that of the treble or soprano. Hence, for example, the term "alto saxophone". In other "families", such as the trombone, there is no soprano, the alto being the highest in common usage, although today it is a rare instrument.

In choral music, "alto" describes the second highest voice part in a four-part chorus. As well as being the modern Italian world for "high", in the present context it is an Italian abbreviation derived from the Latin phrase "contratenor altus", used in medieval polyphony, usually to describe the highest of three parts, the line of which was in counterpoint (in other words against = contra) with the tenor (which "held" the main melody; this word itself originates in the Latin verb tenere, meaning "to hold").

The alto range in choral music is approximately from G3 to F5. In common usage, alto is used to describe the voice type that typically sings this part, though this is not strictly correct: "alto", like the other three standard modern choral voice classifications (soprano, tenor and bass) was designed to delineate a part within a homophonic or polyphonic texture, rather than an individual voice type; the terms alto and contralto are not interchangeable or synonymous. Though some women who sing alto in a choir are contraltos, many would be more accurately called "mezzo-sopranos" (a voice of somewhat higher range), and many men "countertenors" (this latter term is a source of considerable controversy, some authorities preferring the usage of the term "male alto" for those countertenors who use a predominantly falsetto voice production). The contralto voice is a matter of vocal timbre as well as range, and a classically-trained solo contralto would usually have a range greater than that of a normal choral alto part, especially in the upper range, where C6 is not unknown; a choral non-solo contralto may have a low range down to D3 (thus perhaps finding it easier to sing the choral tenor part), but some would have difficulty singing above E5. In a choral context mezzo-sopranos and contraltos might sing the same part, together with countertenors, thus having three vocal timbres (and two means of vocal production) singing the same notes.

Alto is rarely used to describe a solo voice, though there is a plethora of terms in common usage for solo singers in this range. Examples include contralto, contraltista, countertenor, haute-contre. For adult males singing in the soprano register, see male soprano, sopranist and sopranista.

The term alto is also used to designate a specific kind of musical clef. See alto clef.

voxclamans (talk) 11:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)(with revisions)--voxclamans (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I like it, but I think there still needs to be a stronger dissociation between the contralto voice and the term alto. The mezzo-soprano voice is actually much closer to the alto "tessitura" then the contralto voice. Untrained contraltos would have a more difficult time singing alto and an easier time singing tenor. It's the upper part of the voice that develops in training not so much the lower extension, which is not what your phrasing indicates. Hence, why many contraltos sing tenor and not alto in choirs. I think a clear statement like "the terms alto and contralto are not inter-changeable or synonimous" would be appropriate with a comparison of ranges. Altos are a dime a dozen and are really just mezzos or lazy sopranos (joke). Contraltos are quite rare though.Nrswanson (talk) 12:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Also, you directly state contaltos sing in the alto range. They don't! The ranges overlap (much like mezzo-sopranos and sopranos overlap) but a contralto voice stops at E5 and doesn't have the F5 needed for choral music. Likewise the contralto voice goes down to D3 which is much lower than the alto G3.Nrswanson (talk) 12:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I will try and get the page numbers for you from Stark but I leant the book yesterday to one of my students so it might take me a while. That information is also in the countertenor article but I didn't write it. I personally like the term countertenor myself. You and I are on the same page there. I see no reason to say "male alto", "male soprano", "sopranist", etc. when there is already a perfectly good term that is in fact the oldest term. But I don't rule the world. I think we do need to devise a terminology system though, or we will have confusion and debate endlessly in the music community. If I devised a system it would be like this. A countertenor is a male who sings above the tenor vocal tessitura through either head voice or falsetto production. That covers everyone. Castrato of course would stay the same. People like Jorge Cano would be "modern castrato". And then I would use the term falsettist to refer to those using falsetto production, but I think they should just bill themselves as countertenors (and call themselves that. only use falsettist when needing to make destinctions between types of countertenors). Then types of fallsettist: a sopranist would be a man using falsetto to sing in the soprano tessitura. A mezzista in the mezzo-soprano register. I don't think there is a need for a third but I could be wrong. Mezissta I think would cover the alto part in choral music and the lower and middle countertenor roles in opera. Then I would use the term "Maniaci Soprano" to refer to people like him. He's a unique voice. So we should name it after him. Just like the Falcon Soprano. But I don't make the rules. Maybe I should write a paper and submit it too a journal. lolNrswanson (talk) 12:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Go right ahead and good luck! I've done a few more revisions above. If you like it, please put back such references as you think are still appropriate, and it could then be posted as a new version of the article. I have never heard the term "mezzista" - where did you come across that?voxclamans (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Having done a bit more revision, I have posted my recasting of this page. When you have a moment, please comment, etc. Your last posting above makes a lot of sense, though getting people to change their usage of terms can be very difficult. I would be very interested to see references to terms like "mezzista" (which I have never seen before), and I think your idea of creating a category (somewhere) called "Maniaci soprano" is a really good one, even though it may only have one member, as far as I know! Best wishes,voxclamans (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haute-contre

Looks fantastic, certainly no complaints from this quarter. Much more commonsensical than the stuff in Grove, which as far as I can remember blathered on and on about the distinction between chest and head voice. One thing that might be good to add might be that quote from Rossini (?) where he goes on about the squawk of a capon. Hopefully I've remembered that OK. I'll have a look at alto and countertenor later, see if there's any formatting fixes or something.

BTW, on countertenor, I'm just slightly concerned about the links to the YouTube videos. My complaint isn't with the videos themselves, which are lovely, but with the fact that technically several are likely to be copyright violations, and Wikipedia:External links and this page (annoyingly) say that we can't link to copyright violations. I'm no copyright expert, but I have been told that even if you post your own video on YouTube of a scripted (as opposed to improvised) performance (of, say, a Handel opera), this does, somehow, constitute copyright violation. I don't suppose we can know where these videos came from, though. Thoughts? Cheers, Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 16:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Not seeing any email, I'm afraid. Possibly been lost in the ether. The hotmail can be a bit dodgy but I do have a gmail account, moreschiwikiman@googlemail.com - that usually works OK. Cheers, Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 16:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I have a project for you if you are willing

Hello Voxclamans. I have a project for you if you are willing. I notice that the countertenor page is of particular interest to you. I am trying to get all of the different voice type articles to have a similar structure, format, and content. The female voice articles are already in unison and now I am working on the male voice articles. I am personally not very knowledgable about countertenors so I am not that comfortable working on that page. I was wondering if you would mind working on that article. It needs a list of roles and famous singers, preferably a list for each sub-type if possible. Let me know if you are willing. Thank you.Nrswanson (talk) 05:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well... what do you think?Nrswanson (talk) 18:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Creamy Army

Hi Voxclamans. Would you like to join the Creamy Army WikiProject? If so send me a message and just add your name to the list of participants. The only requirements to be in this fantastic group is that you have to change your username to something with the word, "Creamy" in it. If you do join, you'll find yourself with a high ranking position within the group. All the best to you and yours. Creamy3 (talk) 21:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)