Talk:Vlach language in Serbia
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Two things:
- how do the Vlachs name their language in their own language? I presume something like "Româneşte", but I'd want a confirmation first.
- we should avoid weasel words like "most linguists". I don't think there are any linguists who say that "Vlach language" and "Romanian language" are two different languages.
bogdan 11:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think I've addressed the weasel issue (they are identical, aren't they?), however I'm not sure what they call their language. It may be something like "Vlaheste". Telex 12:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, "Vlăheşte" would be the likely answer, since they don't declare the language to be Romanian. On the other hand, they (some) may refer to the language as "Româneşte" but simply declare it as "Vlach" in Serbian (since they don't feel as part of the Romanian nation).
Ronline ✉ 13:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, "Vlăheşte" would be the likely answer, since they don't declare the language to be Romanian. On the other hand, they (some) may refer to the language as "Româneşte" but simply declare it as "Vlach" in Serbian (since they don't feel as part of the Romanian nation).
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- I'd say it's quite unlikely for them to say "Vlăheşte". :-) bogdan 15:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
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- here's what a Vlach said on Talk:Vlachs_of_Serbia#Name:
- Yes, but we called our self Vlachs in Serbian language, in our native mother-language we pronounce Io mis roman, ``Io vorbiesc romaniaste``, at least thats the way my gran-gran mother speaks.
- bogdan 15:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- here's what a Vlach said on Talk:Vlachs_of_Serbia#Name:
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- Do you think there is some kind of connection between the "st" endings when referring to languages. Like the word Vlaheşte with the Albanian Vllahishte and the formal Greek Βλαχιστί - Vlahisti. Other examples include Italian (Albanian: Italishte; Greek: Ιταλιστί Italisti), German (Albanian: Gjermanishte; Greek: Γερμανιστί - Germanisti). Telex 15:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
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- The ending is obviously from PIE "*-isk", but it's not very clear how it reached those languages...
- The traditional explanation in Romanian is Latin -esk ("-esque"): Romanian has the suffix as "-esc(u)" (românesc, sârbesc, grecesc etc), plural "-eşti" < "-esci" (româneşti, sârbeşti, greceşti), "sci"->"şti" being a common Romanian sound change, for example in Latin "scire" -> "şti(re)", to know. Within this family of suffixes, "-eşte" could be explain as being the retrieval of singular form from the plural form, "-eşti". bogdan 19:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, we should include both names. I think it is quite likely that Vlachs refer to themselves as "Vlachs" when dealing with Serbs, since this is the term that Serbs generally refer to them, but that in their own communities, they are "români" (and that they do not declare Romanian on the census either because they see themselves as separate from the Romanian nation-state or because the believe that "Vlach" is the name of their ethnicity in Serbia - in the same way that Roma may declare themselves "gypsies"; the first option is more likely). Ronline ✉ 01:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, we should include both names. I think it is quite likely that Vlachs refer to themselves as "Vlachs" when dealing with Serbs, since this is the term that Serbs generally refer to them, but that in their own communities, they are "români" (and that they do not declare Romanian on the census either because they see themselves as separate from the Romanian nation-state or because the believe that "Vlach" is the name of their ethnicity in Serbia - in the same way that Roma may declare themselves "gypsies"; the first option is more likely).
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- I agree that we should include both names. I know that some Vlachs refer to themselves as Rumani in their language, but I am not sure that all of them use this name for themselves. It would be the best that we know names which Vlachs use for themselves in their own language/dialect. I read that Vlach language even had its own script based on the Greek script some 200-300 years ago, but today Vlach have no written form and Vlachs use either standard Romanian either Serbian for writing. PANONIAN (talk) 01:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Without a doubt in their own tongue the Vlachs say they speak Romanian (rumanesce). There is no such thing as 'vlahesce'.
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- Whether the Vlachs are Romanian is essentially a political, not an ethnic question. Ethnically they are Romanian.
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- However they have lived for two centuries under Serbian rule. During this time they lost religious services and schooling in their own language, which many used to have before 1830. The Serbian government and Serbian Orthodox Church have been applying a systematic and unrelenting program of assimilation.
- For Vlachs Romanian personal names were forbidden by the Orthodox Church and this prohibition continues to this day. Last names (family names) were created by edict in the late 19th century throughout Serbia since they didn't exist before. All last names had to take the form ending in 'ic', usually using the father's name as the root. For most Vlachs this concealed their non Serb origin, though certain glaring exceptions continue, for example: Floric, Jepurovic, St[a]ngacilovic, etc.
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- The majority of Vlachs (some 300,000) do not consider themselves Romanian, but Serbian. To a large extent this is because they do not wish to be seen as unpatriotic or disloyal. In addition, since they have no education in their own tongue, many believe that modern culture cannot be expressed in their native tongue.
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- It is meaningless to point to official Serbian statistics about the 'Vlach' tongue or the number of Vlach speakers. Too many Vlachs suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome:
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- C0gnate 16:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Code
Why is ISO code:none; ISO 639 code: none; Ethnologue code: none) constantly deleted? I see no objection in having this text as above. --Preacher, or Princelet 15:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Because if there isn't any ISO, ISO 639, and Ethnologue code, what's the point of mentioning it? —Khoikhoi 15:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Chinese term
Ni-hao! The Chinese word "luómǎníyàyǔ" means "Romanian" (not "Vlach"), and I don't see what the point of linking it here is. Vlachs are not a recognised ethnic group in China and the "Vlach language of Serbia" is not spoken there significantly (if at all!). Thanks, Ronline ✉ 02:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- The chinese word was added as part of a revert/edit war, as u can see in the history of the article. seems ridiculous to be there, but before removing it, consider which name u will write first: the uncited alleged name they are said to use, or the official name the serbian state uses...? --Hectorian 16:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
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- It's about as ridiculous as the Rumânesce/Rumâneşte in their own designation. We don't know that's their own designation. We could have the designations by which the Romanians call them (they certainly are relevant), but we don't know what they call themselves. Greier's POV pushing has no place here. --Tēlex 17:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Then what is this? Hmmmm? "Federaţia Rumânilor din Serbie" is an association of Serbian "Vlachs" from the Timoc Valley. In their language, they use the term "rumâni" to refer to themselves, but "vlaški" in Serbian. As you can read from that website: "... se ocupă cu păstrarea limbii şi culturii rumânilor". So the language is referred to as "limba rumânilor", referring to what would be called in the Serbian census as "Vlach language". Also, consider that the site has a version in the "Vlach language" which links to a Romanian flag, where they refer to themselves as "rumâni" (from the context, it seems that they see themselves as a subgroup of Romanians, and that the term "Vlach" is used interchangably with "rumâni").
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- The fact that "rumâni" is their own name for the Serbian exonym "vlaški" can also be seen at CNMNR's site. There, the Serbian version talks about "Vlaške" while the native ("Vlach") version talks about "Rumâni" (once again, a Romanian flag is given for this language, signifying a connection to Romania). In English, the translation given in "Vlach (Roumanian)". So, I think there is a lot of evidence to support the fact that the Eastern Romance peoples in Timoc call themselves "rumâni" and their language "rumâneşte", and that Vlachs is mostly a term used as an exonym, when they are dealing with other people. In English, the term "Vlach" also seems to be the translation used for the "rumâni". PS: This document translates the Serbian "vlaški" into "rumâni" or even "români", never "vlahi". This page refers to the languages are "română", not "vlăheşte" or anything.
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- So, to answer Hectorian, we would use their native name first then the Serbian name. This is nothing more, IMO, than a translation issue. The term "rumâni" translates to "vlaški" in Serbian, which is seen as being broader than just "Romanian". The official Serbian name used by the state shouldn't have much importance at all. Ethnic Serbs in Romania declare themselves as "sârbi" on the census, but their native name remains "Srbi". A page about the Serbian minority in Romania should list their name first, and then the Romanian exonym. Ronline ✉ 02:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- So, to answer Hectorian, we would use their native name first then the Serbian name. This is nothing more, IMO, than a translation issue. The term "rumâni" translates to "vlaški" in Serbian, which is seen as being broader than just "Romanian". The official Serbian name used by the state shouldn't have much importance at all. Ethnic Serbs in Romania declare themselves as "sârbi" on the census, but their native name remains "Srbi". A page about the Serbian minority in Romania should list their name first, and then the Romanian exonym.
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- Na nana na na, na na na nana na... You loose!!!!! hahah ha hahaha.... Just kidding. Thanks Ronline for looking into it (i`m a bit surprised, I have to admit)... The very idea of "vlach language" is idiotic: let`s say that you`re a German from Transylvania and at the census they ask you: what language do you speak. Your answer would naturally be "german". But you don`t call it "german" when refering from your view: you call it "deutch"... It`s the same thing as here. Serbia (for clear political purposes) has found the perfect excuse to use this detail in their propaganda... (why does my name apear no more in signature when I write four tildas??) 08:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Go to Special:Preferences. The "signature" box must be totally empty, and the "Raw signature (no auto link; don't use templates or external links in this)" tickbox must also be empty. --Tēlex 08:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Doesn`t work 08:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)08:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)08:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)~~
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- BTW if 54,818 said they speak Vlach, and 34,515 said they speak Romanian, what is the difference between both groups? Kind of a Mongtenergin-Serbian, Macedonian-Bulgarian, Moldovan-Romanian relationship? --Tēlex 08:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
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- No, there`s no difference, except that they use more archaism (due to isolation from Romanian education) 08:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Either that or they are the Serbian equivalent of the Vlach-speaking Greeks of Greece. --Tēlex 08:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, there`s no difference, except that they use more archaism (due to isolation from Romanian education) 08:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Go to Special:Preferences. The "signature" box must be totally empty, and the "Raw signature (no auto link; don't use templates or external links in this)" tickbox must also be empty. --Tēlex 08:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Ethnically, there is no difference. It's just that the Romanians of Vojvodina identify significantly with the Romanian nation-state, while the Vlachs of Serbia see themselves as Eastern Romance peoples whose homeland is Serbia, even if they do also associate with Romania due to cultural similarity (and some of them do see Romania as their homeland); they do see themselves as being different to Romanians, I think, but not in a hostile way (i.e. not like Montenegrins or Moldovans). Greier is right in saying that they don't use "Vlachs" in a tendentious way just to be different to "Romanians" (in the same way that Moldovans or Montenegrins do). This is why they commonly alternate between the two names. Mostly, however, when talking about themselves to Serbs they call themsleves using the Serbian name ("Vlaški"). Ronline ✉ 10:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ethnically, there is no difference. It's just that the Romanians of Vojvodina identify significantly with the Romanian nation-state, while the Vlachs of Serbia see themselves as Eastern Romance peoples whose homeland is Serbia, even if they do also associate with Romania due to cultural similarity (and some of them do see Romania as their homeland); they do see themselves as being different to Romanians, I think, but not in a hostile way (i.e. not like Montenegrins or Moldovans). Greier is right in saying that they don't use "Vlachs" in a tendentious way just to be different to "Romanians" (in the same way that Moldovans or Montenegrins do). This is why they commonly alternate between the two names. Mostly, however, when talking about themselves to Serbs they call themsleves using the Serbian name ("Vlaški").
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[edit] Citation of sources
Can someone please explain my contibutions are always reverted? I cited my affirmations with reliable sources, but that doesn't seem to be aknowledged. --Danutz
