Talk:Visual novel

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Contents

[edit] Redirect

Shibboleth, why did you redirect the page, despite the passionate comments by the previous anonymous contributor? Paranoid 10:41, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

Nice to see an "anime game" section article that was actually balanced, mostly accurate, and well written. I've made several changes to correct a few misconceptions that had crept in, particularly:

  • "Kinetic Novel" is a proprietary term that refers only to the VisualArt's titles "Planetarian", "Maiden Halo", "カレと彼の間で", "TRANCEキッス", and "神曲奏界ポリフォニカ".
  • Visual novels were never always ren'ai games - there are horror examples from the mid-1990s on the Super Famicom ("Otogirisou", "Kamaitachi no yoru", "Gakkou de atta kowai hanashi" and so on).

Haeleth 22:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Why thank you. --Shii/Ashibaka (tock) 22:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VN. vs AVG

An acquaintance of mine who is knowledgable about the genre (Olf le Fol; you may know him) complained that this article is backwards; visual novels are a subset of adventure games, not the other way around. He also said that some game articles are tagged as VNs when the Japanese consider them AVGs (Atlach=Nacha was implied, though I haven't played it, and Yami to Bōshi to Hon no Tabibito is probably one from my own observations.) If this is the case, can we remedy this without making the article terminally confusing for the English-speaking gamer? -Seventh Holy Scripture 17:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I read it as giving NVL and AVG as roughly synonymous, which in practice I think they are, in English usage. (I know Olf's a stickler for Japanese usage, but this is the English wikipedia... ;))
I suspect this whole area of terminology is already terminally confused, though, so if you can think of a way of rephrasing that more accurately describes the Japanese usage, go right ahead. — Haeleth Talk 19:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blade

Blade is a commercial product with no English games produced with it. Ren'py has had several games produced with it. Please stop spamming this page. Ashibaka tock 22:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it's commercial. Isn't it free? And is the basis for banning Blade the fact that Ren'py is already cited?--SidiLemine 14:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The "free" version is crippled nagware, designed to sell a forthcoming commercial version. It is also currently an insignificant product, with very few users and no particular notability within the English-language visual novel community.
The purpose of mentioning any visual-novel engines in the article is to give people representative examples, not to produce an exhaustive list of all available tools. We therefore cite NScripter, because it is a major product that has been used to power multiple A-list commercial visual novel games, and we cite Ren'Py, because it is a free-as-in-freedom product that is the most popular engine among English-language amateur visual novel authors. Those two are adequately representative of the range of engines available.
An additional reason to object to the Blade links is that the Blade engine is being promoted in the USA by a company called CuriousFactory Inc. The Blade links are being added to this article by a user called Curiousfactory. It doesn't take much of a leap to deduce that there's a connection, and we simply cannot condone companies adding links to their own products. — Haeleth Talk 16:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Very fine with me. I was just surprised to see a revert conflict without any discussion on it on the talk page. The reasons looked quite obvious, but there are surptises in those disputes. Did anyone asked for him to be blocked already?--SidiLemine 10:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I blocked him after I noticed Hareth gave him a "final warning" two days prior. Ashibaka tock 22:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I readded improper link w/o checking the chat area first. I'm a wikipedia newbie.. Whisperstorm 09:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This is a great article, well written and all. However it could probably benefit from a few good references at the bottom of the page.--SidiLemine 11:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

While I recognise that free images are vastly preferable to copyrighted images, I don't think it's really reasonable to illustrate an article about a game genre with a fake "screenshot". Particularly not if the caption claims it's a real screenshot of a "typical" game, which the Wikipe-tan image definitely would not be. (For one thing, typical visual novels are not written in Romance languages... appropriate though it would be if they were!)

A better solution, if the Kanon image is felt to be undesirable, would be to use a screenshot of a free game, or otherwise to acquire permission to release a screenshot under a free license. There are plenty of authors, certainly of free games, who would probably be very happy to give permission to place a single screenshot in the public domain or under the GFDL. If time permits, I'll put some feelers out. — Haeleth Talk 17:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's completely reasonable because we're not talking about a specific game, but how visual novels typically look (some type of cute-ish young girl in front of a backdrop image with a dialog box). If someone can get a screenshot of a "real" game released under GFDL then that would be great, and I would indeed encourage that.
WP:FUC has a "quick test" at the bottom of the page, it says "As a quick test, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by a different one, while still having the same effect?" If the answer is yes, then the image probably doesn't meet the criteria above." Thus, the Kanon image doesn't meet the fair use criteria, even if it is far more desirable to use real screenshots. -- Ned Scott 05:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, "probably" does not mean "definitely"; secondly, that "quick test" would rule out pretty much any use of screenshots at all, since any screenshot of a game could be replaced with pretty much any other screenshot of that game. (Even a screenshot of a one-time revolutionary innovation, used to illustrate a description of that innovation, could almost certainly be replaced with a screenshot taken half a second sooner or later.) Therefore, it cannot be intended to be a universal rule.
As for the use of non-free game screenshots to illustrate genre articles, I would point out that it is completely standard practice across the whole of Wikipedia, and if you wish to change it here, I suggest you also look at the following articles:
...and I stopped looking after that. I submit that there is ample precedent for treating illustration of a genre as a fair use for a non-free screenshot, and any move to change that status should be discussed centrally and then implemented consistently. — Haeleth Talk 08:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You can still use a fair use image if that image adds something to the article that the first does not. The Kanon image adds nothing more than the Wikipe image. The Quick test isn't about any other image, but rather, a fair use image vs a free image (can a fair use image be replaced by a free image). It obviously is not talking about two images from the same source.
I'm not opposed to the use of fair use images, and I think they usually add great value to our articles. I'm usually on the side defending the use of a fair use image. However, in this article, this specific article, that kanon image does nothing more than the Wikipe image. If fails policy. This is not optional. Had that image actually added some value to this article that Wikipe-tan's could not (an image of a girl in front of a backdrop with a dialog box) then you might have a point, but that's all the image is. This is not the same as those other articles you listed.
It fails the following requirements to be included in this article: WP:FUC #1, #8, and #10 (no fair use rational written on the description page of the image). -- Ned Scott 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you to explain how this is different from all the other examples I gave. How is using a picture of Pia Carrot 3 to illustrate the concept of a bishoujo game any different from using a picture of Kanon to illustrate the concept of a visual novel? Please clarify. — Haeleth Talk 14:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We could use Kanon before because we didn't have a free example for visual novel, but now we do. When we get a free image for bishoujo then the fair use images on that article should also be removed (unless the additional images provide some additional insight, significantly different example, or relates to a section written directly about that game and the image aids in the reader's understanding of that section, etc etc). In other words, we can still use fair use images on this article even with a free image, but they must provide something significant to the article that the Wikipe-tan image does not. In most cases using a fair use image should only be seen as a temporary measure until a free image can be obtained. That is what's different. -- Ned Scott 20:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of taking the Wikipe-tan image and an image of a classroom I found in the Wikimedia commons, plugging them into Ren'Py, and producing the image you see to the right. While it is in English, it does have the advantage that the drop-shadowing is similar to what you see in real games, rather then the odd blurring used in the current shot.

I think a screenshot from a real game would probably be the best thing, but hopefully this screenshot is better than an image made in photoshop. I can fairly easily change the text to whatever is wanted.

I'm not going to add this to the page without someone more wiki-competent approving. PyTom 21:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer her saying something less self-promotional. And "tan" isn't capitalized. _dk 22:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
It's easy to make those changes, but I don't know what she should say. Any suggestions? PyTom 00:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"I heard Watanabe-san was going to make his own visual novel so that we would have some free images to use on Wikipedia! That's the kind of guy who keeps the Internet alive, don't you think?" Ashibaka tock 15:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Is that a suggestion for what she should be saying? If so, I can implement it. Or is it that someone else will make a VN. PyTom 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC) (A little out of it.)
It's a suggestion :) Ashibaka tock 20:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I took a screenshot with your suggested text. (I still don't get who Wantanabe-san is.) PyTom 21:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It means "Mr. Smith". Ashibaka tock 15:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty blatant self-reference. Surely someone can make one that at least doesn't explicitly reference Wikipedia, and preferably doesn't use Wikipe-tan (do we have any other freely licensed anime-style drawings?). --SPUI (T - C) 22:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

While it's true that free images are better than copyrighted ones on which we assert fair use, this image doesn't seem to fit very well. While all we're trying to get is the general idea of visual novels, this is just self-promotion (see WP:ASR). I think it would be best to at least simulate what a visual novel might say instead of the current caption, and we should still try to get a producer to release a screenshot under a free license, as that would be the best thing for sure. --Rory096 03:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The text used is a bit silly, and the image doesn't have to actually say "Wikipe-tan". Even with that, this isn't a self-promotion, it's just an example that uses Wikipedia. See the image on Datamatrix, or on Mozilla Firefox (a featured article), they both use images that specifically mention Wikipedia.
Being a self-reference isn't always an issue. Note that WP:SELF says "To ease reusability, never allow the text of an article to assume that the reader is viewing it at Wikipedia, and try to avoid even assuming that the reader is viewing the article at a website." One of the reasons we avoid self-references is because things wouldn't make sense if you were reading it on paper, possibly under a different "brand" than Wikipedia. Using "Wikipedia" as an example in an image doesn't make the content or information dependent on being on Wikipedia. Such examples still hold the same value even when used off-site. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, Wikipe-tan has been used in a bunch of other articles as well, and one of her pictures is a featured picture. She's even been seen on the Main Page twice, once for a "did you know" and once for her featured picture showing. This has come up in discussion many times, and we've basically concluded that this use is not the same kind of issue that WP:SELF tries to avoid. -- Ned Scott 04:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My objection is not mainly to the use of Wikipe-tan (though I would prefer another character, at least if we had one) but to the text. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page if I could change the text of the image. I don't mind doing that, but I would prefer not to be the one to decide. -- PyTom 04:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It should actually be possible to find a decent freely-licensed screenshot; there are freely-licensed visual novels, though there quality is presumably usually low. I tried going with a comedy option (MIT license) but couldn't find a good place to screencap; we should be able to find a somewhat better-quality free game. I'd assume that [1] (Narcissu) does not allow for screenshots under a free license. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If we do use a modified version of the current image, I suggest the following:

  1. Rename the character - she looks more like a student than a teacher, so Teacher wouldn't work. Maybe Wik as her nickname? Or a completely different name?
  2. For the text, something generic like "By applying these calculations to our example, we can determine that the buoyancy of the submarine is not enough to allow it to reach the surface."

By the way, the specific images used in the collage should be cited so as to satisfy the attribution requirement of the GFDL. --SPUI (T - C) 07:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What about using Image:Wikipe-tan_visual_novel.png? --humblefool® 07:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That has similar self-reference issues and isn't in English. I believe the current image was made to replace that, which is apparently also made in a graphics editor rather than a real visual novel engine. --SPUI (T - C) 07:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

SPUI, the text doesn't have to be anything in particular. Just suggest some lorem ipsum stuff yourself if you don't like it. Ashibaka tock 05:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

He did. -Seventh Holy Scripture 05:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Time to go back to reading comprehension class. Ashibaka tock 06:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out if there's consensus here as to what the image should be changed to. I can make just about anything using Ren'Py, but I need to know what I should do. Is an image of Wikipe-tan okay, as it is on Moe anthropomorphism... or should I looks for a screenshot of an actual game? Or should I just be leaving well enough alone? PyTom 07:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think just the text needs to be changed. Like I've said before, we don't even have to name Wikipe-tan in the image, if we want to take it that far. -- Ned Scott 09:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I took the liberty of updating the text under Wikipe-tan's pic to, "An image of a visual novel: Visual novels (this example featuring Wikipe-tan) are commonly characterized with dialog boxes and sprites determining the speaker..." Hope it's ok... Anon. 63.97.219.197 05:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fan Translation Section

I've reverted User:SeizureDog's removal of the fan translation section, as I disagree with the reasoning that "Fan translations are technically copy-vios and Wikipedia cannot support them.". Some (most?) fan-translations of doujinshi are done with the consent of the copyright holder, so I don't think that's a problem. Even if it was, I don't think that a mention counts as support... Wikipedia has plenty of articles that mention things that are illegal (For example, Bong describes how to use the device in question), and I don't think that counts as support.

That being said, I think that this section could probably use some work. It might make sense to cover commercial translations as well as fan-translations, and maybe find some sources for it. Or something like that. PyTom 23:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it shouldn't matter if they're a copyvio or not. We have articles about people who have killed other people, but that doesn't mean we're "supporting" them. (That being just an example, I would not call fan-translations similar to murder :) ) What we should avoid is linking to places where someone can find copyvios, etc, but we can still cover the topic. -- Ned Scott 00:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Translation patches aren't really copyright violations anyway... they simply contain data to be altered. Doujin games that are distributed as the actual English versions are free to begin with. Every translation group that's done a commercial (or just for-pay) game has gone out of their way to make sure that their patch isn't distributed with the game, anyway. I don't think there's a problem with a fan translation section at all, especially since it forms an important part of the western VN community. Moogy (talk) 01:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No, translation patches are actually copyright violations. The right to create derivative works (including translations) is covered in copyright. Translation patches are only legal if you don't share them, or if you create an entirely different story to fit in (and thus is not a derivative work of the original). It doesn't matter if the original version is free (unless you mean free use use), it still is covered by copyright. Now, companies may not mind that patches are being made, but like fan fiction, it's still technically copyright infringement. Legality aside, it's really not encyclopedic to talk about unofficial stuff like this. And I hardly see how "international visual novel fans rely mainly on fan translations" when only 2 games have been fully fan-patched when at least 50 have been officially brought over. Basically what this says to me is that 'international' fans are too cheap to buy official visual novels and mostly just pirate them. Which you have to admit, is mostly true anyways; I myself have done so a couple of times, but at least I plan to buy some of them eventually (right now I've got my eye on Kanon for Dreamcast). Of course, we don't get any of the actual popular series, but that still doesn't justify it. I'm not saying we really need to avoid mentioning that visual novels are sometimes fansubbed, but we do need to avoid giving details such as which have been; because then it starts reading like promotion for the translation groups.

Observe this potential slippery slope:
"Some games have unofficial translation patches made for them." (Informs the reader of the practice, but gives no help for obtaining them. This is what I'd be ok with.)
"Planetarian and Tsukihime have had unofficial translation patches made for them." (Implies "this is what you can steal, now go search for it". To me at least.)
"The group Anime Fanboys has created unofficial translation patches for Planetarian and Tsukihime. Download them here." (Full blown promotion.)

On another point, there's really no need to mention dojinshi being translated; with the author's permission or otherwise. Dojinshi are almost by defination non-notable (unless, like Type-Moon, you just happen to get famous later). Anyways, I'm talking too much.--SeizureDog 11:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"No, translation patches are actually copyright violations." You are wrong. Narcissu and the al|together translations are 100% legal. Ashibaka (tock) 00:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not wrong. You just provided an exception. It's legal if permission is granted to do so of course. The copyright owner has waived his rights. Read Fan translation, "fan translations are indisputably illegal".--SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
This isn't different from some of the other articles, however. For example, Final Fantasy V has: "That same year, an unofficial English fan translation patch for the Final Fantasy V ROM image was released on the internet by translation group RPGe.[29][30] It is often cited as the first RPG to be completely translated.[31]" In fact, that gives one a much more direct link to the translation. Heck, there's List of fan translated games.
That list is something that really needs to go. I AFDed it. I don't support FFV's section on the fan translation either, especially since it's impossible to use the patch without stealing the game (ROMs are illegal, at least you can buy the Japanese visual novels and then patch them). --SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you could easily buy a copy of FFV for the Super Famicom, dump it yourself with an SFC dumper and have a (debatably) legal ROM to use with the patch. Moogy (talk) 04:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"Easily" is a bit of a understatement. But yeah, I know you could do that as well. But who does? And as far as I can tell, usually it's the ROMs themselves that are being distributed, not patches for ROMs you dump yourself. But even in that case, Nintendo specifically states that "copying of any video game for any Nintendo system is illegal" so it still doesn't matter.--SeizureDog 08:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I've never seen a fan translation distributed by the producers of a translation as a pre-patched ROM (unaffiliated warez sites will quite often do so, though.) And in this case, I believe Nintendo is in the legal wrong. See 17 USC 117 a1. -Seventh Holy Scripture 11:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Directly following what I quoted is: "'Back-up' or 'archival' copies are not authorized and not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted."--SeizureDog 12:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I suspect some of the translated doujin games (especially Narcissu) may rise to the point of notability, at least in Japan. I think this merits at least discussion of how some games have been fan-translated. I don't think mentioning some of the notable translations is out of the question here. (I do think we should improve the coverage of commercial translations... I might try to do that it my Copious Free Time.) PyTom 16:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
For the time being I've replaced the example fan translation provided with the free game (and officially approved fan translation) of Narcissu. I also generalized the section to 'Translations' and added a mention of AnimePlay. -Seventh Holy Scripture 19:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a mention of Ever17, by far the most notable commercially localized visual novel, to the section. Moogy (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that SeizureDog was requesting a citation for the Ever17 info. Well, it's pretty obvious - Hirameki is the only company that publishes non-eroge VNs in the United States, and Ever17 is their top seller, as seen here. Moogy (talk) 16:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like the solution to this problem is that we can talk about fan translations, but to do so we should cite reliable external sources. This will take care of a lot of SeizureDog's concerns, but won't ban talking about fan translations. It might be wise to place one of those edit only messages in the section as an extra reminder for WP:SPAM, WP:V, etc. It is a magnet for crap, but fan translations are pretty significant to the topic. We just gotta get sources for that info. -- Ned Scott 21:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm much more comfortable with how the section is written now. Mentions that the scene exists and gives an example of a fan-translated patch that was allowed. It's good.--SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of issues remain. I'm not all that comfortable with the Ever17 citation. Moogy's link is to Hirameki's direct sales division, while some of their other titles were distributed via other channels. (I once saw Hourglass of Summer in a bookstore.) So I don't think this is properly cited. I'm also not sure if it makes sense to cite the best selling non-eroge, when eroge seem to sell more. Finally, I'm not sure if it's true that "all major visual novels are produced in Japan"... are there any major VNs that are produced in China or Korea? PyTom 20:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm Chinese, and I think I can answer the last question: No. (I know some are produced in Taiwan, but they're hardly major.) _dk 21:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable for me to e-mail Hirameki and inquire if they have total sales figures available for their games? I'm interested in preserving that statement, and believe it's true, but don't think there's any way to provide the necessary citation otherwise. -Seventh Holy Scripture 07:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we couldn't use your e-mail as evidence because it's not published. We would have to cite a source anyone could look at, for example a page on Hirameki's website. Ashibaka (tock) 20:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
We could easily host the e-mail here or on WikiBooks. As long as it's official, e-mails can be used as references. The C Sharp article had to e-mail Microsoft Customer Support to get an answer for their "Language name" debate.--SeizureDog 22:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." Ashibaka (tock) 23:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
"pub·lish verb 1 a : to make generally known b : to make public announcement of
2 a : to disseminate to the public b : to produce or release for distribution
An e-mail qualifies as being a work "published work". We, the public, ask an official company, thus reliable, a question concerning their products. Really, what better source could you want for sales figures than the company itself? --SeizureDog 23:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: VN. vs AVG

The previous discussion was about 1 year old, so I figure I'd start a brand new section.

In Japan, Visual Novels (or just "Novels") is a distinct genre from the "Adventure Game" (abbreviated as either "ADV" or "AVG") genre. Their main difference is essentially the difference between a paper back novel and a "Choose Your Own Adventure" game book. For Visual Novels, there is no branch in the storyline, no real decisions to make, no multiple endings. For ADV, the story is actually interactive.

When do we follow what is common, and when do we accuse something of being a common misnomer?

To me, calling ADV games "Dating Sims" is as much a misnomer as calling them "Visual Novels". However, this article had a distinct treatment between their relationship. Where is the line? -Afker 10:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

ja:ビジュアルノベル has this to say about visual novels: "In a broad sense, they may be regarded as a kind of adventure game. Although the above-mentioned names are distinguished by the producers, a clear distinction is not carried out in the world in many cases." Moreover, the page reiterates the primary distinction I raised above- VNs scroll text down the screen like a novel, while ADVs present it in a textbox usually formatted as dialogue- and links to both of TYPE-MOON's games as examples, which would not be visual novels by your criteria.
"Dating sim" is a double misnomer, as not all visual novels are about dating, nor are they simulators. Our disuse of "adventure game" as a primary term is rationalized by that genre being specific to puzzle-solving, free exploration games in English (in Japanese it appears the genre encompasses both.) -Seventh Holy Scripture 12:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
If visual novel is considered, in a broad sense, a subset of ADV games, wouldn't that further make it inappropriate to generalize ADV games as visual novels? Like the species spiders is considered, in a broad sense, a kind of bugs, but you wouldn't generalize bugs as spiders. You would fold spider under the bug article, not the other way around. -Afker 13:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I apologize for mixing up the genre "novel" games from "visual novel" games. I mistakenly assumed "visual novels" are a subset of "novels", but turns out that is not the case. After carefully reading both the English and the Japanese articles' characterizations, I have arrived at the conclusion that "novel" games and "visual novel" games are two different genres of computer games in Japan, though they have overlaps. -Afker 13:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's more appropriate to consider the situation of "adventure game" similar to football, as a case where the term has taken on slightly different meanings in different nationalities. However, that analogy is complicated by at least two nationalities with different meanings for "football" (America and Britain) sharing the same language and thus the same Wikipedia. In this case, since this is the English Wikipedia, I believe these games should be referred to by the most common term among English speakers- which is "visual novel."
(Or arguably "dating sim", but that is a blatant misrepresentation, whereas calling Japanese-style adventure games "visual novels" probably won't give any readers false impressions. In fact, there might be more false impressions were the term "adventure games" used, and Western gamers dived into Tsukihime expecting something akin to Myst or a Sierra game...) -Seventh Holy Scripture 14:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The flaw in the Football analogy is that in that case America and England each uses it as a "native" word, whereas "visual novel" is being treated as a "Japanese" term, yet we are not using the Japanese definition of it. 70% (number exaggerated for dramatic effect) of this article doesn't even characterize the actual Visual Novel genre, but rather characterizes how ADV games differ from visual novels. With the exception of a few games where the line is blurry, the two genres (visual novels vs ADV games) are fairly distinct, and this wikipedia article is propagating a prevalent misconception. I'm very tempted to try and clean it up, but I lack the initiative and boldness to completely nuke the article and start from scratch, nor can I find an easy means to salvage the current article so I don't have to start from scratch. -Afker 07:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider another analogy then: Hentai, a blatant English misappropriation of a Japanese term. Rather then restricting itself to the Japanese meaning, or redirecting to the more correct term Ecchi, the article describes the English usage with several explanatory notes on the true meaning of the word. It's quite similar to the situation we have here, in my opinion.

Anyway, to lay out my thoughts on the matter clearly:

  • The Visual novel page currently expands the term to encompass games that Japanese would term "adventure games" and not "visual novels." This is inaccurate.
  • However, few English speakers use the term "adventure games" to describe any of these games. The English definition of adventure games includes free exploration and puzzle-solving, things which most Japanese AVGs lack, as integral elements.
  • Instead, English speakers tend to refer to all novel-type games as "visual novels."
  • The distinction between visual novels and adventure games is not clear cut, according to the Japanese Wikipedia. The central game elements- detailed novel-like story, CG cutscenes, limited interactivity, etc.- are common to both genres.
  • There exists a precedent on the English Wikipedia that when a foreign-language term has been misappropriated, the page on that term should nonetheless cover the English-language usage of that term, with an explanatory section describing the true meaning of the word. Such a section exists on this page.
  • There is also a section of Adventure game describing the expanded Japanese usage of the genre term.
  • In my opinion, it would cause more confusion to revise or rewrite this page with the correct Japanese usage of the terms involved, as this creates two dilemmas- confusion with the distinct English usage of the genre term "adventure game", and puzzlement at the non-usage of the popular English label "visual novel"- in place of one minor one: puzzlement by Japanese natives and those very familiar with Japanese culture at the misusage of "visual novel".

In any case, I'll do some rearrangement of the page to make those notes more prominent; hopefully that will be to your satisfaction. -Seventh Holy Scripture 09:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for laying out the points, especially with respect to precedents. And thanks for the rearrangement, it does read better now, and gives me the first stirrings of some idea of how to further revise the article in baby-steps that still has this article covering both genres. I'll sleep on it a bit. -Afker 10:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History?

This article doesn't contain any info on the history of visual novels... When was the first one released? What was it like technically? Try to name a few important visual novels. Shinobu 03:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Shizuku, Kizuato, and then ToHeart by Leaf pretty much started it. I'm aware there were sound novels/random eroge beforehand. ToHeart is perhaps the most important VN of all time because it transformed the genre from mostly-ero to mostly-story and added the high school setting. Then came Kanon from Key which nearly eliminated the ero aspect in addition to being extremely popular. (Kanon was also among the first to have an anime adaptation.) And now VN is a very popular genre, with (some number over 50)% of PC games sold in Japan being VNs and then you get things like F/sn PS2 nearly outselling Super Paper Mario (insert reference here). Blah blah, somebody else reword this shit to make sense in the article if you want. Moogy (talk) 13:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better Phoenix Wright coverage

Though this suggestion is not as fundamental as others here, I believe that a little better coverage of the importance of Phoenix Wright being a hit outside of Japan would enhance the article. I think it should have a small section describing how it is the first ADV game to be considered a true hit outside of fan cycles, and a "See Also:" link to the Ace Attorney wikipedia page. People reading this will become aware of Phoenix Wright being an ADV game and will see the potential the genre holds outside of eroge.Gaming otaku 21:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagarism from the Blade Enginge homepage?

I've noticed that part of the article seems to derive verbatim from the Blade Visual Novel Engine webpage. Mizunori (talk) 23:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

No, more likely the Blade Engine webpage derives verbatim from Wikipedia. According to archive.org, Blade's page dates from around August 7, 2006 while the text in question was written in its original form by User:Duty in late 2004. Also, I'm User:Duty under a new username, so I think I would have remembered had I copied it from somewhere. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 03:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)