Talk:Visual kei/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 First comments on page 2 a thought 3 musical influences 4 boy bands and the recent edits 5 Good article. Inaccurate and in need of editing but good article. 6 Just out of curiosity 7 Vandalism 8 Complaint about editing 9 Confusion in Definition 10 Incorrect Facts 11 Confusion in Definition 12 Deaths in Visual Kei 13 "Almost single handedly"

First comments on page

I do not mean to be harsh :), but...

Could somebody please mention some Visual kei events or uses that are not related to music or explain further why Visual kei is not a music genre?

If Visual kei is not strictly a music genre, I would say that at least it is tightly bounded to Japanese music and J-Rock.

xDCDx 10:37, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This article was pretty clear to me. The point is its a term for a visual style adopted by bands, and not their musical style. --Waltonics 01:33, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, actually I see the distinction more clearly now, the comment is a bit outadated. --xDCDx 02:28, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

a thought

A thought I had today- would those semi rock bands we get in the west now like Busted and all who are more interested in their image fit under visual kei? Boy bands with instruments... Bah —Preceding unsigned comment added by Josquius (talk • contribs)

musical influences

Malice Mizer were not influenced by "Goth" music at all- Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees and so on are great bands of course but they are not important influences on Japanese Music. The "Goth" scene here in Japan is very small. Mana from Malice Mizer was influenced by Gothic *Fashion*, and that is reflected both here and in the seperate article for Gothic Lolita. In fact Malice Mizer for a large part of their career were not even particularly influenced by Gothic Fashion, preferring a colourful theatrical look and it was only with the increasing commercial success of "GothLoli" that Mana really capitalised on it. I have a feeling the editor who added the reference to "Goth" is not familiar with Goth music, or perhaps has made the mistake of many foreign observers that because Mana looks similar to a Goth (white face, crosses, capes etc), his music is also similar. This is a common mistake about many visual kei bands but the point is also addressed in the article so I hope future readers will not make a similar mistake. Musically Malice Mizer shared some similarity with the pastiche-baroque style established by 80's American and British metal bands and guitarists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.48.202 (talk • contribs)

Malice Mizer, and most visual kei bands, were not influenced by "Goth" music. Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees and so on are great bands of course but they are not important influences on Japanese Music. The "Goth" scene here in Japan is very small. Furthermore, MM no longer exist, and are therefore not an ideal example to give of VK music styles.

Mana from Malice Mizer was influenced by Gothic *Fashion*, and that is reflected both here and in the seperate article for Gothic Lolita. In fact Malice Mizer for a large part of their career were not even particularly influenced by Gothic Fashion, preferring a colourful theatrical look and it was only with the increasing commercial success of "GothLoli" that Mana really capitalised on it. I have a feeling the editor who added the reference to "Goth" is not familiar with Goth music, or perhaps has made the mistake of many foreign observers that because Mana looks similar to a Goth (white face, crosses, capes etc), his music is also similar. This is a common mistake about many visual kei bands but the point is also addressed in the article so I hope future readers will not make a similar mistake. Musically Malice Mizer shared some similarity with the pastiche-baroque style established by 80's American and British metal bands and guitarists, with some influences from Anime and computer game music and regular J-rock and pop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.48.202 (talk • contribs) Modifyed this comment, preserving both versions.

boy bands and the recent edits

Hello- the point that VK bands are a "uniquely Japanese version of a boy band" is, I think, interesting and accurate, and a good way to understand their fan base and appeal in Japan: perhaps NOT in the west- which is explained later in the article. So I replaced this phrase after it was changed in a way that didn't give any useful information. If anyone editing here has been to a real VK live in Toyko they will understand exactly what I mean.

Also recently there has been some increase in "anime-kei" bands which I have now included in the musical influences section and in the fashion section; also I included information about "cosplay" which is a big part of the fan scene, but wasn't mentioned in the article.

Finally, I removed the word "underground" from after "indies" because this would either link to the London Subway system, or to underground art, underground politics and so-on, which would be confused. I think "indies" is a better explanation.

I have been in a few live Visual Kei shows in Japan and I completely agree with the poster above. --xDCDx 03:14, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hello- me from above- sorry to remove your last edit- but what does "real instruments" mean?? Most VK bands just play basic guitar, bass etc, not to particularly high level, and as a poster above mentioned there are western "boy-rock bands" too. An opera singer "just sings"; I don't think playing basic rock or pop music on a guitar is somehow better than "just singing". Also the dance skills of some boy-bands could be equated to the "live performance" of VK bands, and is often more spectacular and energetic; but that's not so relevant to this article.

One more thought- are we including "Glay" "L'arc en ciel" and "Gackt" as "Visual Kei" because if so we need to widen the definition from "usually play standard J-rock" to include something like "the most popular bands play light rock or vocal-based pop".

Hello, you are right, my addition was way too biased. However I have restored the "visual kei bands compose their songs while boy bands don't" because I think that is completely true.

Again you are right, playing instruments is not better than just singing. But I do think that knowing how to compose, even rudimentary songs, is better than not knowing how to compose songs.

As for the paragraph about musical genres, I have also just edited it to include your suggestions. If you see a way to improve it further, don't hesitate to edit anything.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know how popular in Japan Dir In Grey is? What musical genre would you say they play? I don't know if classifying what they play as J-Rock is completely correct (I found it to be somewhat harder than standard J-Rock).

Regards, --xDCDx 03:15, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi, me again- your new version is better than mine and is layed out well, too; thanks. I suppose Dir en Grey are still pretty popular, somewhere around the same as Pierot? Most "maniac" fans of VK I know didn't like early DEG (this is quite a few years ago) because they thought DEG were copying the image of other emerging VK bands who had promosing images but no major promotion. DEG were produced and promoted by someone from X Japan I think. Their early music is regular rock as much as I remember. Around 2001 DEG (and many other VK bands) seemed to be copying the sound and image of Marilyn Manson (you can see the same colour contact lenses and makeup style of many vocalists); which is harder than usual VK bands, you are right. But just now my friend tells me that for a year or so DEG have moved in the same direction as L'arc en ciel, with a less makeup-and-costumes image and going back to a more pop-rock kind of sound, and that they have had some more mainstream success because of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.93.194 (talk • contribs)

Actually, it's the other way around -- Marilyn Manson is rumored to have copied extensively from visual kei style, and indeed was accused of such by the late hide of X Japan, who he is known to have been friends with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.0.58.121 (talk • contribs)

Have a look at DEG and Pierott's visual styles before Manson started wearing odd-coloured contacts and bold stripey makeup, then look again after Manson started doing it. They clearly copied his style. Many years ago DEG used to be a kind of Malice Mizer ripoff before Manson became an influence. Also since Manson became very popular, more VK bands started adding his kind of "lite-industrial" to their sound which used to be regular J-rock. For his image, Manson more than anything copied old goth bands and David Bowie (badly). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.48.163 (talk • contribs)

Good article. Inaccurate and in need of editing but good article.

I think that likening Visual Kei bands to boy bands is pretty insulting. Just because teenage girls like VK band does not mean they are in any way similar to boy bands. The term boy band carries a negative connotation which implies that the group is comprised of talentless, manufactured, bubblegum-pop, record company puppets. Terms that do not apply to the majority of VK bands. Even the VK bands that do play bubblegum-pop write their own songs and play their instruments skillfully (with many songs featuring guitar solos). To say that having teenage females as a majority in their fanbases makes Visual Kei bands similar to boy bands would be like saying that having adult males as a majority in their fansbases makes Jazz bands similar to Death Metal bands.

Also there is a goth scene in Japan. The only people who say the goth scene here is small or that it doesn't exist are people who are not active in the scene. The (no longer updated) website "Goth in Japan" (http://www.classervices.fr/_cernus_net/__deadatlast/indexold.html) was a good, if incomplete source of info in this regard.

Also Malice Mizer did have goth musical influences. Aside from Mana, who more considers his current project Moi Dix Mois to be Gothic Metal than Visual Kei, Kozi went on to form the Goth band "Eve of Destiny". One needs only listen to Malice Mizer's music to hear the goth influences these two members inserted into the band. Visually castles, moonlight, spiders, candles, bats and graveyards dominated Malice Mizer videos... if these were not due to Gothic influences then what else?

In any event Visual Kei has far more in common with punk, rock, hard rock, goth, metal and black metal bands than it does with boy bands. This entry in Wikipedia should be edited to reflect that because the current tone of the article is a bit derogatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NecroSocial (talk • contribs)

It seems like you don't like boy bands??? The article doesnt say anything about "good" or "bad" with regards to boy bands, what the article says is that VK bands are in some ways a uniquely Japanese equivalent to boy bands. It also points that most VK bands write their own songs (although of some don't) whereas most boy bands don't (although some do). It is not just because their fans are "teenage females" but because VK bands are marketed in a very similar was "boy bands", based upon visual appeal and image, rather than music. I am sure *you* think they are very talented, and can play their instruments well and I am sure many fans of boy-rock bands like "Busted" think the same thing about that band. You might think they are wrong, they might think you are wrong; but that is point of view, and not part of this article.

Some of the "gothic influences" you mentioned on MM are "castles, graveyards and spiders in their videos", but this is a visual influcence from gothic fashion (which is mentioned in the article on gothloli), not connected with the sound of goth music. Regardless of this, in general, most VK bands play standard rock or pop and over-emphasizing goth influences on some bands would give a wrong impression about the genre, especially because some people see the makeup and hair of typical VK bands and think they are some kind of "j-goth" bands.

Yes, there is a goth scene in Tokyo. However, I don't know how often you go to goth clubs in Tokyo, but the goth scene here IS very small compared with a city like London. There are only 3 or 4 regular (usually only monthly, not weekly) events in the whole of Tokyo and each one draws around 50 attendees. Even specially large events rarely draw over 100. In the UK, Germany and Holland there are clubs which regularly get between 400-1000 attendees every week. Considering the huge population of Tokyo, the scene here is disproportionately small.

Finally, as many of my friends are in Goth and Death Metal bands in Tokyo, I can honestly tell you that they would be very very shocked and possibly insulted if you drew a comparison between them and VK bands. Wearing the same kind of makeup or PVC jeans does not have much to do with the sound of the music, or their reasons for making it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.48.95 (talk • contribs)

Just out of curiosity

Why isn't Malice Mizer mentioned at all in the current article anyway? Just because they no longer exist can't justify leaving them out. Heck, the article includes L'Arc as an example! I'd say they are a pretty important influence? Poor L'arc, they hate being called vk.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sibladeko (talk • contribs)

edit reply: This is due to the fact that L'arc started out within the visual scene, and many of their members are from other older visual bands. Their drummer is from DIE IN CRIES for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.1.147 (talk • contribs)

-- I was just wondering the exact same thing. Whether or not they are still around does not one bit dilute their influence on the style and overall image (which is, of course, the crux) of VK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.29.106 (talk • contribs)

Indeed! I agree with this criticism wholeheartedly. I think part of the problem is that purists tend to define 'goth' too narrowly, as only meaning the goth-rock (and maybe death-rock) genre of music. But really, across the world it is more usual to relate to it as an all-inclusive dark music scene; and, this would include not only industrial music but also darker synthpop, doom metal and black metal, shoegaze, dark ambient and experimental music, and so on. (In most circles, even the glam-rock/shock-rock of Marilyn Manson would be included as part of the scene!) Not the 'goth genre', but the 'goth scene'!! So, it is not wrong to say that some of the Visual Kei artists should be included in this.

Also, the boy band comparison is misleading. Hordes of female fans do not turn an act into a 'boy band' phenomenon. For instance, were The Beatles a boy band?! I think not. How about Duran Duran, for that matter? Again, I think not. (Same type of fans perhaps, but not the same type of band.) Granted, some VK bands may be closer to being pure pop groups than others, but it's still a different notion....

(Time for me to attempt a re-edit, perhaps!!)

I think that likening Visual Kei bands to boy bands is pretty insulting. Just because teenage girls like VK band does not mean they are in any way similar to boy bands. The term boy band carries a negative connotation which implies that the group is comprised of talentless, manufactured, bubblegum-pop, record company puppets. Terms that do not apply to the majority of VK bands. Even the VK bands that do play bubblegum-pop write their own songs and play their instruments skillfully (with many songs featuring guitar solos). To say that having teenage females as a majority in their fanbases makes Visual Kei bands similar to boy bands would be like saying that having adult males as a majority in their fansbases makes Jazz bands similar to Death Metal bands.

Also there is a goth scene in Japan. The only people who say the goth scene here is small or that it doesn't exist are people who are not active in the scene. The (no longer updated) website "Goth in Japan" (http://www.classervices.fr/_cernus_net/__deadatlast/indexold.html) was a good, if incomplete source of info in this regard.

Also Malice Mizer did have goth musical influences. Aside from Mana, who more considers his current project Moi Dix Mois to be Gothic Metal than Visual Kei, Kozi went on to form the Goth band "Eve of Destiny". One needs only listen to Malice Mizer's music to hear the goth influences these two members inserted into the band. Visually castles, moonlight, spiders, candles, bats and graveyards dominated Malice Mizer videos... if these were not due to Gothic influences then what else?

In any event Visual Kei has far more in common with punk, rock, hard rock, goth, metal and black metal bands than it does with boy bands. This entry in Wikipedia should be edited to reflect that because the current tone of the article is a bit derogatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalon75 (talk • contribs) Note - this was an edit of a previous comment, leaving both comments for historical accuracy.

"Dark music"?? Not sure how traditional rock and pop would fit into that.. Listen to most VK music without seeing the pictures of the band and there is nothing "dark" about it, it's just regular j-rock music, occasionally sounds a bit like nu-metal, certainly nothing like Doom or Goth. Most VK bands are nothing like as dark as Marilyn Manson, and as far as I know, even Marilyn Manson isn't considered real "goth".

As for the boy-band thing.. well, Duran Duran were pretty much a boy-band. The Monkees (American answer to the Beatles) played and wrote "rock" music, but were certainly a boy-band - possibly the first boy-band in the modern sense. The Beatles were marketed like a boy band at the beginning but showed their own original way of making music which is why people remember them as a genius rock/pop band.

I agree Visual kei isn't exactly the same as a boy-band, but it's a Japanese phenomenon that is very similar in many ways. Specifically, promotion based upon looks not sound; and many cookie-cutter bands (both major and indie) that copy the same vocal style, guitar style, colour-contact lenses and PVC etc. Being "pop" doesn't mean you are a boy-band. Of course having female fans doesn't mean you are a boy-band. However, marketing yourself specifically to teenage females with a crafted image, record shops specialising in "VK" records concentrated in or close to teen girls clothing stores, pretty photographs and fancy costumes...that sounds a lot like a boy-band... In mens clothing stores or adult department stores you may find Techno, House, Hip-Hop, Jazz, Ambient, Breakbeat but never VK...surely there is a reason for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.48.105 (talk • contribs)

Vandalism

Grrrrr....some bigot with nothing better to do deleted the whole thng a replaced it with the word 'faggotry' , I copied and pasted the previous edit to repair it.

I've just looked at the other edits the user had done, looks like someone hacked their account, they had done lots on Japanese music up until February then this vandalism was their first appearance since then.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.210.84 (talk • contribs)

Complaint about editing

You know I think little Miss Whatever her name is needs to stay the fuck away from this article. Calling Kuroyume a minor band is a big insult. Who the fuck does she think she is? Stop editing the article bitch. -- Anti-Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.1.179.49 (talk • contribs)

Hi, maybe not using insults would be a good idea? As for your first comment, I don't know who "Die in Cries" are so I can't help you- I certainly didn't put them in the article... But anyway, this isn't a page to put links to bands you like. If you are talking about "major" VK bands, Malice Mizer and Pierrot are (were) much, much, much bigger than Kuroyume.

None of the bands listed have anything to do with Goth.. you've listened to Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus etc? Where is the resemblance to regular rock bands like "Luna Sea"?

In case you are wondering, I am a Japanese goth..I like some VK bands, but nobody I know considers VK bands to be "goth", except westerners who get confused by the visual image. If you were interested in Malice Mizer from the start, you would know that they started off as a very colorful and theatrical band, but because Mana is interested in Gothic-lolita looking visuals he pushed the band in that direction visually. Regardless of their visual idea, musically they are not Goth.

Also, why are you upset just because your favourite band isn't featured enough in the article? Neither is mine, because they aren't the best example of VK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.17.49.13 (talk • contribs)

Confusion in Definition

Honestly, the whole definition of Visual Kei is admittedly confused. There are 2 meanings to Visual Kei.

1. A Japanese band who focuses on an elaborate image.

2. A style of music originating in the early-mid 90's which was unique among Visual-type bands.

A more intellectual explanation is given on this specific website: http://www.proxemics.net/honyaku/history.html (further research can prove the accuracy in said article)

Although note that this article refers to traditional VK music during that era. Yes, each band had their own niche, but each of the bands played or did at one time play within similar, communing elements. The goth/metal/punk hybrid was a standard of most bands at the time that was in some shape or form integrated into the music and this style is still played today, and primarily a signature styling among the Visual Kei bands. MANY japanese music stores and websites even categorize said music as "Visual", as it has always been related to it's progenitors, the VK bands. However, you must remember the 2 definitions of Visual Kei music, as the image and music became somewhat divorced in recent years (not entirely, though) but that, as I said, is still a popular and defining style among the underground visual rock community. Just as the article said, some bands are only labeled VK because of the image.

If you have any other questions or comments, feel free to reply. :)

--Ark~Magic @ 10:34 PM, September 11, 2005

Incorrect Facts

Since my edit was reverted, and the person who reverted it seemingly knows -nothing- of actual VK, I'm placing my comments here.

Revert: Visual kei is popular with teenage girls here in Japan, and many of the artists are major pop stars (Gackt, etc). At the last VK concert I went to, almost all the audience was mid-teens.

1) Really now? In the online communities, such as mixi, they're mostly 20+, with only a few that are 17-19. I have never seen anyone on there younger than 17 that is into VK.

2) Have you really been to a Visual Kei concert? Considering you mentioned Gackt, I'm inclined to believe otherwise. Do you even know what Visual Kei actually is? and many of the artists are major pop stars (Gackt, etc). No one in VK are major pop stars. VK is an underground, mainly indies scene in case you haven't noticed. Gackt is J-pop and only that. Some people may stretch it to put him under J-rock. However, he hasn't been VK since Malice Mizer.

3) I'd like to know just what VK concert this is you went to, also. Everyone I've spoken with that's been to actual lives in Japan (Dir en grey, Nightmare, Phantasmagoria, other Under Code, etc) say that the majority of them are older girls, 20+ years old. The Japanese Phantasmagoria fan I met was 24, and she also said the exact same thing. Most of them are office ladies, not school kids. Know one big reason why? School kids don't have time to go to lives, VK or not, if they care about school. Out of them maybe only 1% don't care about school. (Remember, this is Japan, not America) Mostly the younger teens aren't all that interested in it, anyway. Most of them are into pop, like.. Gackt, for one, and the boy bands.

4) And yet again, Kuroyume's been left out. You do realize that without them, Dir en grey probably would -not- exist? They were very popular as VK and after they dropped the VK both. They deserve mention.

5) Gothic lolita is not a sub-genre of Visual Kei. It never has been -- it's a fashion style and ONLY that. Some members may use that fashion, but that does not make it a sub-genre. It should be edited to read something like the following:

Within the field of Visual Kei are several 'sub-genres', including EroGuro, Angura Kei, Nagoya kei, Oshare kei, and more; all which form particular visual styles.

All of those that I mentioned are sub-genre, unlike "Gothic Lolita". Examples: eroguro: Merry (I honestly can't think of any more right now, though Cali Gari could probably be considered such, too.). Angura kei: MUCC, Cali Gari, lab., metronome, guruguru eigakan. Nagoya kei: deadman, lynch., gullet, guruguru eigakan. Oshare kei: Antic Cafe, baroque (who started Oshare), Lolita23q, Henzel, Charlotte and tons more. Some fall under 2 categories, as well.

As you can see, unlike the original author of this article, I actually DO know what I'm talking about.

But no matter what, this article needs SERIOUS revision. Not only is it wrong in several parts but it's giving others incorrect information, which is not what wiki is for. I attempted to fix it by removing the incorrect facts and rewording it to make more sense only to have it reverted, because someone thinks Gackt is VK now. Nice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Visual_Kei&diff=42910255&oldid=42554487 Compare for yourself, if you'd like.

Hey man, you're right about that. Kuroyume is a very important band in VK. Also, this girl who keeps vandalizing the article needs to lay off. It's also nice to know that the Japanese wikipedia article(s) (and in fact much of the japanese music scene) disagree strongly with her about Kuroyume's "Lack of Popularity". Even though many bands in VK went major, they are only a small portion of the J-Rock scene. It is sad to see how so many people are under the impression that VK is the majority of J-Rock, and any Japanese can tell you otherwise. There are legendary non-visual metal groups besides X-Japan, like LOUDNESS, who in fact influenced X. And Luna Sea isn't exactly "general J-rock". When you compare most of their earlier albums against their last few CDs, they sound very different and darker than their later, more mainstream stuff, they had distinctive sound, which alot of following visual bands imitated, even moreso with Kuroyume. "J-Rock" is a very broad term. It doesn't just mean Luna Sea or X, it can even mean the Ulfuls, Oblivion Dust, Mad Capsule Markets, Boowy, or other famous non-visual groups.

Although I must also note that age shouldn't be an argument in this case. There are probably younger VK fans, but you're right that in Japan it's mostly girls. But even in America, there are more female VK fans than males, (although moreso a male audience than japan's).

I agree and am tired of taking this shit on wikipedia. This article has always pissed me off and it's about time we did something about it, besides allowing some fangirl to revert everything. Why not post a translation of the Japanese version of the article?

I don't think anyone is saying VK is the biggest part of the J-rock scene, if that is not clear from the article, you can change it! I think you want the article to sound too much adult and underground. I am sorry if you don't believe me, but for example, I know that most of the girls who dress up as VK bands in Harajuku are at junior high school or high school (I was one of them). At concerts by VK bands there are so many many high school girls, the majority of the audience for sure (again, I was one). Indies bands are a big part of the scene, but some of them still play concerts to 1000 or more people, that is not really "underground". Also, saying Luna Sea is J-rock is not the same as saying all J-rock is like Luna Sea. Please take Gackt out of the article if you like (I don't like him). But L'arc en Ciel are "Visual Rock" at least, and Glay started as a very big visual kei band and they were probably the number one major J-rock band when they still had a very VK image around 1998. And I'm sorry about Kuroyume, they are quite important to the scene..I just don't like it when people think these kind of bands are "goth" (maybe I thought so too until I went to England and got into real goth music). I won't touch the article more, so please fix it how you like, but I suggest one day to go around Harajuku and see all the junior high school girls buying the VK posters. (I still have a poster of an old VK band called "Pleur", I bought when I was 14!!)

Hi, You are right that "gothloli" is not a "genre" of VK. I don't know who added that. However, there is no "original author" of this article. It is a mix of many many people adding things, so it is quite confusing. But please believe me, schoolkids have enough time to go to many live concerts, I did! (and I cared about school too). Most "bangyaru" in Tokyo are in high school, especially for "underground" VK bands (the bands can be pretty young too!!) I started going to concerts when I was 14 at junior high school. I could go to lots of indies concerts in Kouenji and Shinjuku, often they were on Sunday afternoons. Major concerts were usually midweek, around 7pm . You are right there are many indies VK bands, but there are many popular bands too. For most people, bands like Pierrot and Dir en grey are VK bands and they are major, and mostly have young fans. Malice Mizer were not a top-10 rock band, but they were very popular in their own genre. They played much bigger lives than some internationally famous underground J-rock bands (like Melt Banana or Guitar Wolf). Gackt or Glay is, rigth or wrong, considered part of VK scene by many people (I think they are pop though) so maybe they should be in the article to show the pop side of VK. Also many VK fans also like Gackt or Glay. I don't think it is good to only focus on minor bands or minor scene that is confusing for the reader (Nagoya kei? I haven't heard many bands from Nagoya recently- is this really a very different style from Osaka or Tokyo VK bands?). Anyway, someone made the article look a lot better so thanks to that person. Maybe you can make it better to read and include your knowledge!! You know a lot of bands. Please try to write about well-known and important bands, not just the bands you like..

Nagoya kei really is its own style. I really can't describe it, but if you look at the bands I listed, listen to their music, and such, you can get an idea of this type of style. I only listed the ones I know well, and that are used by the Japanese fans. I know there are even more than just those, but the listed ones are the popularly-known sub-genre of VK. As for recent ones, lynch. is one, deadman is another (though they're now on hiatus). It used to be much bigger a few years back. :/

Why don't we change it to "female audience 15 - 25". Definately the fan base is female, but saying "oh its just young teenage girls" seems to be inplying a distain for VK. In fact, this whole article doesn't seem Neutral Point of View but another "VK is just some stupid momement thats dead" type review with a bit of name dropping. The japanese fans I know in Japan are 20 and over. I also think it depends on the concert, the younger bands (ex: AnCafe) tend to have younger fans, older bands tend to have older fans or a mix. I have read reviews where old ladies showed up to concerts xDDDDD amusing the fans. I just realized I'm not logged in I'll have to come sign this later. Denaar 14:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, 100% It really needs to be re-written, and split up in past VK (80's and 90's, seperate, too) and current VK, cause all I see in it is the old VK mentioned. VK isn't dead, it's just changing and evolving, and that needs to be described in this article, too.

Confusion in Definition

Honestly, the whole definition of Visual Kei is admittedly confused. There are 2 meanings to Visual Kei.

1. A Japanese band who focuses on an elaborate image.

2. A style of music originating in the early-mid 90's which was unique among Visual-type bands.

A more intellectual explanation is given on this specific website: http://www.proxemics.net/honyaku/history.html (further research can prove the accuracy in said article)

Although note that this article refers to traditional VK music during that era. Yes, each band had their own niche, but each of the bands played or did at one time play within similar, communing elements. The goth/metal/punk hybrid was a standard of most bands at the time that was in some shape or form integrated into the music and this style is still played today, and primarily a signature styling among the Visual Kei bands. MANY japanese music stores and websites even categorize said music as "Visual", as it has always been related to it's progenitors, the VK bands. However, you must remember the 2 definitions of Visual Kei music, as the image and music became somewhat divorced in recent years (not entirely, though) but that, as I said, is still a popular and defining style among the underground visual rock community. Just as the article said, some bands are only labeled VK because of the image.

If you have any other questions or comments, feel free to reply. :)

--Ark~Magic @ 10:34 PM, September 11, 2005

Is there any place that has a backup of kurai's history of visual kei? It's arguably one of the best articles about it on the web. It would be nice if it could be quoted in this entry. -- Anonymous @ 12:02 PM, December 2, 2006

Deaths in Visual Kei

I’ve added a section about the deaths that happened in Visual Kei during the 90s, I only know the basics so if anything needs fixing or information added, feel free to do so. - Deathrocker 16:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the information is more vaild on the respective band pages? Such as Piass's and Hide's pages. Hide's death had big enough reprecussions maybe to be discussed here, but its already fleshed out on Hide's page. People die a lot in all genres of music and literature. Denaar 02:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

"Almost single handedly"

The reason added a 'fact' tage for this is that as it's presented as a quote it needs to be referenced. Who said it? When did they say it? Are they notable? At the moment it's not sourced at all. I'm going to add the tage back becuase we can't present quotes as important to the article as that without any sourcing. ShizuokaSensei 02:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to source. I don't know of anyone besides the Western fan community that thinks that, no one's ever said it officially, and it really comes down to a folk belief of sorts - it's in the collective consciousness because that's what someone told someone else, etc. That's why I changed the beginning of the sentence, to make it clear that those are "so-called" quotes rather than "direct statement" quotes. Moreover, it's only important to the article in that it is a disprovable misconception. MSJapan 13:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Japanese wikipedia. Most Visual Kei bands have a "theme" or "mission statement" (What is your band's theme is a standard interview question by most Visual Kei Magazines). X Japan's statement was 「PSYCHEDELIC VIOLENCE CRIME OF VISUAL SHOCK」. The genre name "Visual Kei" was taken from this statement. Its hard to source because there isn't much printed material on VK outside of Japanese Magazines/other media. Denaar 02:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)