Talk:Vishwakarmas

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Contents

[edit] Discuss More

Kindly discuss more about this community in South India.

I take exception to the opening sentence's description of the community as "known to be the direct descendants of Lord Vishwakarma." Considering that the majority of the world's population does not recognize this deity, it hardly seems a neutral statement.
This deity is well known in India and very famous there are lot of temples for the same. I understand there's not lot of research done in this direction. There are lot of narrations in Vedas (I've already mentioned), Upanishads about the deity which I will gradually mention.
  1. http://www.hindunet.org/god/devatas/vishwakarma/index.htm
  2. http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/05nov03/state.htm
  3. http://www.udupipages.com/home/temple/kara.html
  4. http://www.indiantemples.com/Orissa/puri.html
  5. http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1/weeklyx0.htm

Also, only after starting the article there will be development in a positive direction. I am sure there will be other people who will know more about this subject and will gradually collect evidence.BalanceRestored 05:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, do you have some links to help flesh out and provide references for the article? --Ginkgo100talk 23:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The information those I've provided are known to Vishwakarma Communities from their families. There are lot of regional books from publishers all across India those mention in detail about these communities. We will need to wait for those to be published. The topic is only created only yesterday. BalanceRestored 05:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gotras

The vishwakrama gotras and surnames are to be added to the main article.

Vishwabrahmins commonly have the following surnames (I know these two surnames, other editors are requested to mention all the other surnames here.)

  1. Achari
  2. Acharya

Vishwabrahmin Gotras

  1. Manu, gothra is "Sanaga brahmarshi"
  2. Maya, gothra is "Sanaathana brahmarshi"
  3. Thwashta, gothra is "AhaBhounasa brahmarshi"
  4. Daivagna(Shilpi), gothra is "Prathnasa brahmarshi"
  5. Viswagna, gothra is "Suparnasa brahmarshi"

The above are the main gothras(Pancha gothras)

Sanaga brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are

  1. "Upasanaga brahmarshi",
  2. "Vibhraja brahmarshi",
  3. "Kasyapa brahmarshi",
  4. "Manuviswakarma brahmarshi",
  5. "Viswathmaka brahmarshi".

Sanathana brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are

  1. "Upa sanaathana brahmarshi",
  2. "Vaamadeva brahmarshi",
  3. "Viswa chakshu brahmarshi",
  4. "Prathi thaksha brahmarshi",
  5. "Sunandha brahmarshi".

Ahabhounasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are

  1. "Upa bhounasa brahmarshi",
  2. "Bhadradattha brahmarshi",
  3. "Khaandava brahmarshi",
  4. "Nirvikaara brahmarshi",
  5. "Srimukha brahmarshi".

Prathnasa brahmarshi has 5 upagothras they are

  1. "Upa prathnasa brahmarshi",
  2. "Ruchidattha brahmarshi",
  3. "Vaasthoshpathi brahmarshi",
  4. "Kausala brahmarshi",
  5. "Sanaabhava brahmarshi".

Suparanasa brahmarshi has 5 upa gothras they are

  1. "Upasuparnasa brahmarshi",
  2. "Viswagna brahmarshi",
  3. "Paritharshi brahmarshi",
  4. "Surasena brahmarshi",
  5. "Saankhyayana brahmarshi".

BalanceRestored 05:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Citations for the Five main Gotras
  1. http://www.theindianculture.com/states/AndhraPradesh/a.p(folk).htm#top
  2. http://www.daivajna.org/daivajna/html/Daivajna-Gotras.html
  3. http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/yajurVeda/notes.asp
(TS (4.3.2) mentions the five ŗşhīs namely Vasişhţha, Bharadvāja, Vishvāmitra, Jamadagni and ::Vishvakarma; RV (10.137) mentions seven ŗşhīs: Bharadvāja, Kashyapa, Gotama, Atri, Vishvāmitra and ::Vasişhţha. During Sandhya worship, one repeats the names of seven ŗşhīs. The list varies from gotra ::to gotra. One version is: Atri, Bhŗgu, Kutsa, Vasişhţha, Gotama, Kashyapa, Angirasa. (4.3.3) ::mentions five ŗşhīs Sanaga, Sanātana, Ahabūna, Pratna, Suparņa. The Vishvakarma Brāhmins who build ::temples and sculpt the forms of deities trace their lineage to these five ŗşhīs.)
Download Yajurveda and read 4.3.3 for the names of the sages mentioned above http://www.sanskritweb.org/yajurveda/keith.pdf (Translated by Arthur Berriedale Keith)
  1. Citations are there in the book "The Theory of Citrasutras in Indian Painting: A Critical Re-Evaluation of their Uses and Interpretations"
  1. ISBN-10: 0415391954
  2. ISBN-13: 978-0415391955
Written by Isabella Nardi BalanceRestored 05:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable sources

BalanceRestored, you'll need to cite reliable secondary sources to support any information you intend to add to this (or any other) article. Among the sources you have listed above, only the book Nardi would qualify as an acceptable source but it is not clear what exact statement you are claiming the book as a reference for. Also please ensure that your writing maintains a neutral point of view. Cheers. Abecedare 07:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

A valid citation.... is this good enough? Metalcraftsmen of India (Memoir - Anthropological Survey of India ; no. 44)

  1. Publisher: Anthropological Survey of India, Govt. of India (1978)
  2. Language: English
  3. ASIN: B0006E12X4

BalanceRestored 09:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that looks like an acceptable reference. Now can you specify what statement you want to use this book as a citation for, and cite the relevant page number in the text ? Thanks. Abecedare 09:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, you forgot to list the author Meera Mukherji in your citation. Abecedare 09:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The gotras mentioned above are clearly mentioned in this text. BalanceRestored 10:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Can you specify where in the text (page number) and preferably provide the relevant quote ? Abecedare 10:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Check page number 21. BalanceRestored 10:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It says the vishwakarma or vishwabrahmana caste was divided in to five gotras their names were Manu, Maya, Thwashta, Silpi, Vishwajana as they are mentioned above BalanceRestored 10:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Since that is verifiable information, feel free to add it to the article along with the reference. Similarly, if and when you find reliable sources for the upa-gotras, you can add that information too. As long as you base your edits on quality sources (such as this one) and only add information that is contained in the source (although you need to often rephrase it in your own words) you will be fine. Cheers. Abecedare 10:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Another citation.
The Mysore Tribes and Castes
By Hebbalalu Velpanura
Nanjundayya, L. Krishna
Anantha Krishna Iyer
Published 1935
Mysore University
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Jul 14, 2006
Mentions at Page 459 mentions
5 Vishwabrahmin/Vishwakarma Gotras
"Sanaga"
"Sanaathana"
"Abhuvanasa"
"Prathnasa"
"Suparnasa"
These rishis are also mentioned in the Yajurveda. 4.3.3 BalanceRestored 11:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi BR, I didn't find the "Sanaga" etc mentioned in this text on Google Books. Since you have access to the book, can you please quote exactly what the book says on page 459 in this regard. That way we can ensure that the article reflects the content to the text accurately. Abecedare 09:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Nevermind. I found it. I'll edit the article so that it is more understandable to the general reader based on the above two sources. Abecedare 09:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Abecedare for your efforts. BalanceRestored 05:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yajur Veda

Now these Rishis mentioned are the linage of the Creator Himself. If anyone finds details. Kindly submit. This is a well know fact among the vishwabrahmin/vishwakarma communities. But to post the details here there has be citations BalanceRestored 12:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Yajur Veda Citation
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/yv/yv04.htm
a The east of the quarters; the spring of the seasons; Agni the deity; holy power the wealth; the :::Trivrt the Stoma, and it forming the path of the fifteenfold (Stoma); the eighteen-month-old calf :::the strength; the Krta of throws of dice; the east wind the wind; Sanaga the Rsi.
b The south of the quarters; the summer of the seasons; Indra the deity; the kingly power the :::wealth; the fifteenfold the Stoma, and it forming the path of the seventeenfold (Stoma); the :::two-year-old the strength; the Treta of throws; the south wind the wind; Sanatana, the Rsi.
c The west of the quarters; the rains of the seasons; the All-gods the deity; the peasants [1] the :::wealth; the seventeenfold the Stoma, and it forming the path of the twenty-onefold (Stoma); the :::three-year-old the strength; the Dvapara of throws; the west wind the wind; Ahabuna the Rsi.
d The north of the quarters; the autumn of the seasons; Mitra and Varuna the deity; prosperity the :::wealth; the twenty-onefold the Stoma; and it forming a path of the twenty-sevenfold (Stoma); the :::four-year-old the strength; the Askanda of throws; the north wind the wind; Pratna the Rsi.
e The zenith of the quarters; the winter and the cool season of the seasons; Brhaspati the deity; :::radiance the wealth; the twenty-sevenfold the Stoma, and it forming a path of the :::thirty-threefold; the draught ox the strength; the Abhibhu of throws; the wind all through the :::wind; Suparna the Rsi.
f Fathers, grandfathers, near and far, may they protect us, may they help us, in this holy power, :::this lordly power, this prayer, this Purohita-ship, this rite, this invocation of the gods.

BalanceRestored 12:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

BalanceRestored you are making three fundamental errors here:
  • You are using and interpreting the Yajur Veda which a primary source, which is not acceptable on wikipedia (see WP:RS)
  • You are synthesizing information based on the Yajur Veda and another text, which is a strict no-no.
  • You are readding POV content in unencyclopedic language even after it has been reverted by two editors and your mistake pointed to you.
Also note that you need to mention the citation in the article (see WP:Cite on how to do so), and saying "see talk page for citations" is not good enough! Your recent edits are disruptive, and you are liable to be blocked if you continue down this path. Abecedare 19:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
You mean Yajur Veda is wrong ??? I did not know that.. I will be careful. BalanceRestored 05:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Can this be then cited as a valid reference???
The Veda of the Black Yajus School: Entitled Taittiriya Sanhita
  • By Arthur Berriedale Keith
  • Translated by Arthur Berriedale Keith
  • Published 1914
  • The Harvard university press
  • Original from Harvard University
  • Digitized Feb 2, 2007

BalanceRestored 05:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not a valid source for the kind of information you intend to add. Please see wikipedia's policies on primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Abecedare 05:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the fifth (associated with the goldsmiths' gotra) being the "Pranava Veda"

No, all the 5. It is not just goldsmiths. BalanceRestored 10:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] which is not a text but the notion that "Aum is the Veda".

Did you find citation for the same, there's lot more than that. If you did find the same, kindly cite BalanceRestored 05:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

look, there is no known text called the "Pranava Veda". You can say that it's a secret text that has never come to the attention of scholars, but what will that help us for the purposes of Wikipedia? Saying that this is a real text that simply nobody has ever heard of is not a falsifiable statement: how am I supposed to provide a "reference" that this is not the case? If you like, of course, "aum" is a text, just a very short one. dab (𒁳) 08:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Writing "aum" is a text, just a very short one. is certainly misinterpreting the facts. There are many writers who are just trying to hide many things, which seems very apparent from what I have been researching till now. There are large texts those are certainly trying to misguide many. There differences in the epics itself shows that there are certainly huge differences. If you do not know the fact about the very text is present or not kindly do not mutilate the fact at least. The text you have written is spreading a wrong message. The Vedas are being passed from the teacher to the student and from father to his son and could be very much alive with certain communities, again not everything is told to everyone. If the Government of India them self has checked the facts and is quoting the same, what is the problem mentioning it at wikipedia. What happens if it is mentioned that Pranava veda is a Hindu scripture?? It looks like people are desperately trying to hide and misguide the actual origin of the Veda.BalanceRestored 07:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems like the some people want to actually subside the fact that Vedas are from Dravidian origin isn't it? Again there are evidences that there has been attempts to destroy the evidences by removing certain chapters too. BalanceRestored 07:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
This has been too quoted by many of the Indian Leaders in the past. BalanceRestored 07:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that Pranava Veda is only known to original Indians and not among the ones who come later, the facts of the veda are purposely being stubbed so that people do not work on them.BalanceRestored 07:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


BR, "Pranava Veda is a seperate Veda that's passed on for generations and is only alive among very few and they will not share the same. So the Veda was never known...." cannot be used as a reason to add/delete information from wikipedia. Please read WP:V. Abecedare 16:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
BR, the people who have this Veda want to keep it off WP because it's secret. The people who don't have it do not want it on WP because it is unverifiable. Just keep it off WP and everyone will be happy, ok? dab (𒁳) 11:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, that's a better Idea. It's not necessary that everything has to be around. BalanceΩrestored Talk 13:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Panchals Details

"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 18", By James Hastings, Page 599, states the following "Panchals have the Brahmanic sanskars, or sacraments, and perform their ceremonies according to the Vedic Ritual. Frequent attempts were made in the days preceding British rule to deny them the rights to these Brahmanic privileges; but when the decision of pandits, or religious advisers when referred to, was in their favor."BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The author James Hastings has referred the following books when quoting the above.
  • BG xv 1883, xx 1884, xxii 1884, xxiv 1886
  • Journal of Ethnological society of London, new i, (1869), iii 1871;
  • A Steele, Law and Custom of Hindu Castes, ne ed, London, 1868;
  • F. Buchanan, Journey through Mysore, Canara and Malabar do. 1807 i. 78, 251, ii 270, 476
  • B. L. Rice, Mysore and Coort, Bangalore 1876-78, i 249, iii 211
  • E Thurston, Castes and Tribes of S. India, Madras 1909, iii 108

BalanceΩrestored Talk 18:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I refrained from answering your response to my action without discussion, because I have decided to adopt a policy of non-cooperation with those who revert my actions without discussion. Now, as you admit your knowledge of Panchals, I am inclined to tell you this was my plan (I wanted to rename the article as Panchals and describe all the five branches), which I had briefly hinted in my email. It is erroneous to mention only one section out of five, and neglect the remaining four. But now I will keep away from this article, and it is your duty to find the ancient brahmanical sources which include Panchals among brahmins. Good bye. -VJha 19:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Do you have access to Skanda-Purana Nagar Kanda, the details are given there. I will dig that out from there. This is all the hint I've got till now.BalanceΩrestored Talk 05:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I've not accessed the Skanda Purana Nagar Kanda myself, but these are the detail that I've got. The Panchal came out of the Mouths of Lord Shiva (He who is Vishnu is Shiva; he who is Shiva is Brahma, the Father; the substance is one) viz Sadyojat, Wamadeo, Aghor, Tatpurusha, and Ishana.
Also according to Skanda Purana Nagar Kanda, Manu married Kanchana, daughter of Angira Rishi, Maya's wife was Sulochana, daughter of Prashara Rishi. Wife of Twashta was Jayanti, daughter of sage Koushika Rishi. Shilpi's wife was Karuna, daughter of Bhrigu Rishi. Daivadyna married Chandrika daughter of Jaimini Rishi. Details are from "The Castes and Tribes of H.E.H. the Nizam's Dominions, By Syed Siraj ul Hassan" Page 545. BalanceΩrestored Talk 08:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a text known as Pranava vada by Gargyayana, from which one Bhagavan das quoted a lot about hindu philosophy. Similarly one brahmanam known as AthbuthaBramanam which is a part of PACHA VIMSHA BRAMANAM describing how to make smiling/crying idols. Any way the distortions of terms like VADA and VIMSHA are confusing. Durgaviswakarman
Thanks for the info.BalanceΩrestored Talk 08:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Viswabrahmin

Per the above discussion, Viswabrahmin has been redireced to this article. The last version of that article may have material that would be useful here. Spartaz Humbug! 06:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)