Talk:Violin construction and mechanics

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[edit] Fixed versus made

Joints are fixed with hide glue. They are made with wood, marking and cutting tools, the operator's sense of fit, and perhaps an adhesive. __ Just plain Bill 23:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exceptions to hide glue

Someone is demanding examples of exceptions to the "only hide glue" rule. The statement that "all joints in a violin are held with hide glue" is simply not true. There are a very few applications for other adhesives.

In an edit summary, I mentioned cyanoacrylate glue, useful for filling small divots in ebony, as one example. Since this is not a how-to-repair-your-fiddle article. I left it at that. What do you use to stick the drumskin under your E? A pip on one of your pegs develops a buzz. What do you stick things together with?

The burden of proof is on you L2BA. I've seen you do this kind of thing before. "Never heard of it, so out it goes." Show me convincingly that nothing but hide glue is ever used for sticking bits of a violin together, and I'll shut up about it. Not talking about shade-tree repairs here, either, but good standard shop practice. __ Just plain Bill 01:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the section in question deals with construction, not repair. Why don't you enlighten us all as to what other joints are made (fixed, whatever) with other than hide glue? Until then, I'll leave the article saying that all joints are made using hide glue; it's stupid to say "with some exceptions" but not name them. Why the evasion? ==ILike2BeAnonymous 03:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup, construction in the sense of anatomy. There's a whole nother section on making. It's ignorant to say that all joints are made using hide glue when they are not. I've now given you three examples which apply equally to repairs or new work. Here's another: if a violin has a label, how is it glued in? Do your own research; talk to whoever attends to your fiddles.

The simple fact here is that an overwhelming majority of sticking-together on a violin is done with hide glue, but not "all" of it. The other cases are few and special, and going into their particulars is a waste of screen space for most people. __ Just plain Bill 03:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Gluing on a label doesn't constitute a "glue joint", which is commonly understood (in the case of violins and other wooden instruments, at least) to mean an interface between two wood members. You haven't given any other examples other than using superglue to repair dings in ebony, which is a repair issue, not a construction one. If you want to say that adhesives other than hide glue are used for repairs, fine, go ahead and say so. Put up or shut up. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 05:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

How many new fingerboards have you made? Clue: finishing is part of the process. Furthermore, the "new" phase of a violin's existence is brief. Its construction may exist in various states for centuries aferwards. Find me a credible source, familiar with the best modern practice, that says all joints on a violin must be stuck with hide glue, without excption. You can't. Shut up. __ Just plain Bill 05:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that little outburst, but not too much so. The gist still is that some joints on modern violins are stuck together with adhesives other than the traditional one. There is no "must be" about it; it happens. Just plain Bill 05:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Why can't you just fucking say which things are glued with other than hide glue? Is that so hard? Why all the cuteness and evasion? Just list the damn exceptions, OK? I have no idea what you're getting at with fingerboards; all the ones I've seen and dealt with are glued w/hide glue, just like you're spozed to. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 06:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course the FB is stuck to the neck with hide glue. Anything else will be cause for foul language in the back room when it comes time to pop it off. Planing a fingerboard, new or not, may reveal fissures that were hidden. One way to fill those is with ebony dust and CA glue. That's wood stuck to wood. No idea what all the exceptions are, so no list for you. Different makers do things differently, and they don't always share their techniques publicly. ciao. __ Just plain Bill 14:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

p.s. not trying to be cute, just don't assume that what I know is necessarily mine to share. Other glues used include CA, epoxy, white glue, and yellow aliphatic carpenters' glue. Those last two are sometimes used to join the center seams of tops and two-piece backs. This use is disparaged, but it happens. __ Just plain Bill 15:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey old bud, don't go away, check this out: I just thought of one more to mention: Knilling recommends "a bead of Gorilla glue" (polyurethane glue) for sticking their Perfection Pegs (4:1 planetary-geared pegs, which are actually pretty cool; work fine, look to last a long time) into the pegbox. I find they work just fine cranked in all by themselves with a drop of moisture, but the manufacturer recommends something modern, sticky, and untraditional all the same, for your entertainment. __ Just plain Bill 08:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

BZZZZZT! Not a wood joint. But hey, thanks for playing.

You've only been able to give trivial examples, all of them either repair- or maintenance-related, of non-hide glue usages. Interesting, but doesn't address the issue.

I'm going to be redoing this section soon, attempting to sort all of this out. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Two things here: you seem to be confusing "construction" with "making." As it says right at the top, this article is about anatomy, or construction in the sense of structure, how the parts fit together, not necessarily how they are put together for the first time. Repairs become a permanent part of the construction, since no violin is ever frozen just as it leaves the hands of the maker.

The other thing: the whole "wood/wood" quibble is not what the article says. Right now it says "glue joints are held with..." not specifying the material of the joined parts. If you want to apply hand-picked definitions so that you can be right, go ahead, but it won't do the clarity of the article any good. The already-mentioned center seam of the plates being made with PVA glue is hardly a repair issue (until the joint creeps or opens and must be remedied) and is most definitely wood to wood. __ Just plain Bill 02:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)