User talk:Vinoir/Archive 1

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[edit] Sources

Hi, please could you cite your sources! The population data you're adding for Norfolk settlements does not correlate with the ONS/County Council data and there is no way to verify that your amended figures are correct. Joe D (t) 13:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The KLF & 23

A WikiCookie for Vinoir in recognition of a job well done on KLF related articles (but don't stop just yet!)

Nice little edits, thanks! --kingboyk 13:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

And thanks too for your kind words on my talk page, very much appreciated! --kingboyk 11:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well well well, a new article too - Last Train To Trancentral - and a very nice one at that. Are you on the KLF mailing list per chance? --kingboyk 11:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. No, I'm not on any KLF lists, but I am an enthusiast, inspired by the progress that's been made here. I'll be in touch at Talk:The KLF. Vinoir 19:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I must say you've done an extraordinary job with the new KLF articles, and Justified and Ancient is perhaps your finest work yet - it has the facts, citations, context, a review (mostly but not entirely positive), a snippet of lyrics but not too many - in other words, exactly what an article on a single should be. I feel really quite humbled as your contributions of put mine to shame somewhat! Have a WikiCookie on me. Nice one! --kingboyk 12:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Aww, that's exceptionally kind, many thanks indeed, kingboyk :) But your contributions are certainly great stuff, and for sure I would never have got started if it weren't for the order, structure and prose that you gave to these pages. --Vinoir 16:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Unfortunately this edit won't make any difference mate :-( The text after the | mark in a category membership is just a sort key, at the present time it doesn't affect how the article is named within the category. --kingboyk 16:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see, cheers for that! :) Shame. --Vinoir 16:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, tis a shame. Maybe should be a feature request/bug submission. --kingboyk 16:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What Time Is Love?

Are you still working on that article or can I have a play with it? I think I'm gonna split it out, it's way too busy with 2 infoboxes and 4 sleeves (sadly). --kingboyk 17:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Be my guest - I agree, there's just too much happening down that RHS of the screen! --Vinoir 17:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

PS, there'll be a little link-fixing to be done after the split, but I'm happy to do that. By the way, according to Lazlo's discography, the "Neon" version appeared on an album by that artist. In a separate WTILS article it might be worth briefly mentioning such facts to balance against claim that KLF were responsible for all the versions. --Vinoir 17:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KLF Research

Hey, whilst you're doing a journal search, would you see if you can find a Hansard reference for [1]? (the "It's Grim Up North" graffiti incident). --kingboyk 19:07, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Madrugada Eterna

...is Spanish for 3am eternal is is not? Hmm... no, it's "Eternal Dawn", same same... [2]. So, a wikilink wouldn't be appropriate but a mention of this info would. --kingboyk 16:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm

Do you think User:Postmastergeneral might be a certain Mr J Cauty? Look at his contributions, and there's the name (stamps of mass destruction etc). Don't call his bluff, of course. --kingboyk 01:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yikes, I think it might be. Why not? Well, you know, if it is him, then one of the very best things that could happen in life is that he says, "music is free" and offers us complete KLF tracks to have on the Wikipedia pages :) --Vinoir 01:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer it if he sent me a copy of The Black Room and the Waiting video, quite frankly :P Or, tea with Bill and Cress would be nice. --kingboyk 01:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be unthinkably good! When I was doing my postgrad stuff here in Norwich, my office-mate Ben was gardener to The Man's parents. I never really pressed him on it though. If I were sent anything, it would have to be a record I haven't heard since I was at Radio 1 roadshow, 1992, Great Yarmouth. After Jim Rose circus sideshow had done their thing, I got bored and wandered off. I heard enticing musical strains eminating from a side door of the nearby leisure complex, and walked through. It was a large function room, completely empty except for a table at one end, on which sat a record deck playing a white label of a mix of "What Time Is Love?" that I haven't heard since, including through filesharing, though I'm not suggesting it's necessarily anything unknown, because I haven't heard everything. It was damned good, Bello's "What Time Is Love?" was looping frenetically and the whole sound was quite full but it wasn't the acid mix. I shouldn't've been in the room, obviously - it must've been part of some after-roadshow thing - but I could've just nicked the bloody disc then and there! Surreal but true tale. That's the track I'd like to hear again. Do you know which version it is? --Vinoir 01:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Not off hand, no, but I've probably got it. I'll give my WTIL? versions a spin later or tommorow and see what I can come up with. As I probably said before, I've got pretty much everything MP3-wise (and a fair slab of vinyl/CD too).

What a strange scene that was - if it were an SL1210 you should have legged it with record and player :P --kingboyk 01:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you have a look at [3] and see if you can narrow it down? (i.e. exclude the versions you have, and those which were never on WL). Can you remember anything else about it other than MC Bello and it's not the acid mix? Was it a 12" or a 7"? (If it's a 7 it might be the "techno gate mix") --kingboyk 02:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC) P.S., Jim, if you're reading this, I also need an original KLF Comms CD of the WTIL Story. Cheers mate.

Cheers for that. It was a 12", but not "techno gate", "power", "wanda-ful", none of the Moody Boys versions, and nothing off WTIL story. I haven't heard "techno slam" but I remember thinking this version sounded funky. --Vinoir 02:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Just listened to "techno slam" and there's no MC Bello on it. It's more of the "original white room" sound. --kingboyk 02:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If you want me to help you on this you'll have to help me out! Give me a list of the WTIL? versions you don't have, and I'll try and find the one you're after (assuming I have it. The only WTIL? mixes I know are missing are "cease fire mix" and "Rhythm Stick Mix" which are both DJ mixes (those old DJ-only mix compilations, not KLF Communications). In other words, if it was a KLF Comms WL I should have it). --kingboyk 18:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much. It's got to be 1990 onwards (because of MC Bello's appearance). Having consulting the discography, what it boils down to is that I don't have any DJ mixes. From the remaining possibilities, it is either "cease fire", "DJ Hyperactive & Ron Staley", "What Time Was Love", or "rhythm stick" - everything else was released too late. --Vinoir 16:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not "What Time Was Love", which is just noise (it's from a CND album and I think it's the noise of a/"the" bomb). The only WTIL DJ mix I have is the "Powerhouse mix", which seems to fit the bill sonically? Could it be that? --kingboyk 18:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll check it out... --Vinoir 19:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me know if you can't find it. --kingboyk 19:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Please turn your email on. --kingboyk 20:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Vinoir 07:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Man

Do you have this album? If you do, I believe that the liner notes list the personnel. Could you add it to the article please? Cheers. --kingboyk 19:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC) (P.S. I also recall that Drummond's contributions aren't actually listed so best put him down as "Guitar, vocals"?)

I don't unfortunately have the original of this, but I'll see what I can find on-line. --Vinoir 07:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If not, it can wait until I go home, where I have an original (CD). --kingboyk 07:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! :) --kingboyk 18:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KLF interview footage

If you haven't already, I suggest you follow the download link I added to The KLF article and grab the intervew video clips (and the other goodies on that site). I've no idea of their source but they're really great viewing. It's a casual chat with Bill & Jimmy when they're in the studio working on The White Room, and they're both quite lucid. It's good to hear Jim talking for a change, too! --kingboyk 02:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The KLF discography

Have you seen my improvements to that article? It now has a nice section on KLF Communications, 4 general references and 16 footnotes :) Once we have chart data I'll ask the reviewer to come back and have another look. --kingboyk 21:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's fantastic. Good work again. I'm popping into town tomorrow and will verify release dates if I can. --Vinoir 23:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Only the "year of release" is included in the record collector price guides. --Vinoir 09:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I don't suppose you recall how much they value 1987 at now (for example)? I was thinking of adding a line or two about collectability, and I suspect values have plummeted from their peak? --kingboyk 11:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I checked out two books: one by Record Collector, and I forget who the other one was by. Prices varied considerably between the two books. According to Record Collector, about £60 for a mint 1987 LP. Space and Chill Out both about £40. It claimed 3 copies of "Deep Shit" are known, and they were something in the order of £300, as was (roughly) the rarer of the "Magrugada Eterna"s and the see-through "WTIL?". The original "Grim" is pretty steep, can't remember how much, same goes for "3 a.m. TOTP". There was a bit in the front of the book which commented that really collectable vinyl is holding its value, but that rare vinyl in general has fallen in price. --Vinoir 11:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Thorpe

I've deleted that because it's a redirect pointing to a redlink (which is "so so" to start with) but worse of all it's in a category. Readers clicking a blue link in a category are entitled to expect to find an article there! :-) Please don't go overboard with the categorising of redirects in general, use a bit of discretion. Let me know when Moody Boys is blue and it's a simple job for me to restore the redirect page :-) (It's not actually zapped forever, it's still in the database). --kingboyk 04:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC) P.S. No bed to go to? Oh and check your email!

The Moody Boys is now blue. The Tony Thorpe redirect is back (not sure what you mean for it to be still in database, is it okay to have restored Mr Thorpe in this way?). --Vinoir 13:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine! I mean, I could have restored it with a couple of mouse clicks - it's stored in a deleted articles table rather than zapped - but it was just as easy for you to recreate it :) --kingboyk 14:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Song samples

Have you uploaded at the maximum bitrate Wikipedia say is acceptable for fair use? I'm guessing you have - in which case there's nothing we can do about it - it's just that they sound tinny :( --kingboyk 14:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I found nothing at Wikipedia:Media#Audio or related pages to offer guidance, curiously. :-. However, at the moment I'm being cautious, because there's going to be around 20-25 samples uploaded when I'm done, most of them are over 30 seconds long (just how it seems to work out each time), and I'm thinking of the future: I guess we'll soon be submitting for FAC, and the whole lot will be under the microscope and subject to criticism by "fair use" Blue Meanies.

The bitrate can be pushed up by the software I'm using. I'm happy to upload higher quality samples either fairly imminently or in the future, if you reckon we can get away with it. --Vinoir 14:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, you know what? The 1987 sample still sounds weedy. I'm guessing it's because 1987 is weedy in the beat box department, right? :) --kingboyk 13:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

'Fraid so. Or my bootleg 1987 CD is weedy. Either way, "she cannae take any more, Cap'n", everything's on maximum here. :) --Vinoir 13:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

To clarify my thoughts: 2xLast Train, 3xChill Out, 3xEternal, 3xWTIL, 1xWTIL Story, Tammy, It's Grim, Doctorin', Build A Fire, All You Need, WKTJ?, Kylie. How does this list seem? --Vinoir 14:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll reply tommorow (hopefully), and will also check out some other articles to see what they do in regards to length and bitrate. It was just that on some of the samples I downloaded the drums were really weak and I didn't get a feel for the track. (I'm not critising your sterling work by the way - it's merely a case of bitrates). FAC status - yes, I think so. The KLF article in particular has come along better than I had dared imagine :) Catch u later or tommorow mate! --kingboyk 14:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Basically, my choices are the tracks I've already mentioned in the talk pages... the only two I feel particularly strongly about are the Brits version of 3am and the original All You Need Is Love both for the main article. It might be nice to have a sample from the demo version of the White Room, too, in that album's article? (Born Free, Build A Fire or Church?). Your new IGUN sample sounds great, but it's a bit big... as promised, I checked out a Beatles sample. It's about 60kbbps but sounds better than ours (I don't think dance music downsizes well). The interesting thing though is that it's mono... now, if we were to use that IGUN sample at the same bitrate as now but in mono I'm thinking it might be half the size yet still sound good....??? --kingboyk 17:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I've deleted Category:KLF fair use music samples for you. --kingboyk 14:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Nice one, thanks for that :) --Vinoir 11:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Moody Boys

Stunning job mate! Absolutely first class. --kingboyk 14:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much old bean! :-) --Vinoir 14:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?)

Good news! 1987 got "Good article" status (despite it having a few formatting errors I've just noticed). --kingboyk 08:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

That's good news indeed. I've nominated Chill Out now. It'd be nice if there were one more picture we could add to the article, but I'm not sure what. --Vinoir 09:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Email

Man, why don't you get a Yahoo account? It's 1GB of storage free of charge and you're not tied in to any ISP (and I know from experience the one you're with is dreadful!) Anyway - the point of this rant is :) - I sent you an email but it bounced as over quota. Let me know when it's clear :) Cheers. --kingboyk 11:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that - I've got 50MB on that account but I've been a bit lax with it of late. It's cleaned up now mate. Many thanks for the Brits version, it's been a long time since I heard that! Bill comes in a beat too late on the second verse. --Vinoir 10:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You know what - I thought I'd got 50MB but actually it's 5MB. That's crap! --Vinoir 03:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You ever called their support dept? Call it in the evening and they put you through to India. Hopeless. If I was you I'd get a Yahoo or Gmail account. --kingboyk 03:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Tried to send you the list for the 3rd time but you're over quota again! [4] :) --kingboyk 04:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Underground magazine

Have you ever heard of the above? It's such a generic word combination I can't find owt on Google. They had some things to say about AYNIL, but I'm reluctant to cite a magazine I've never even heard of! [5] [6] --kingboyk 11:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've never heard of it, but I'll investigate. The All You Need Is Love (The JAMs) article looks good! --Vinoir 12:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

It has worked out rather nicely, hasn't it! I like it how we can take the little bits and pieces we've already written, and then really open up... expand on the subject, provide more context and commentary. It's a satisfying piece of work that took me several hours to complete. And your contribution? Wiki-linking motherfuckers! Bah! --kingboyk 13:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC) (tongue firmly in cheek)

lol :-D --Vinoir 13:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: "Justified and Ancient" etc.

I'm glad to hear that my advice was constructive and that it will help the articles improve. For neutrality, I suppose that what I wanted to point out was that it's very difficult to make an unbiased article with one or two people writing it and that sometimes the article can stray a bit from being encyclopedic. I wasn't necessarily trying to say that their viewpoints were wrong or anything, it's just that I felt the article as an article was a bit off from NPOV.

I'd be more than happy to look over your articles before resubmitting them. I suggest not submitting all three at the same time. You may have noticed by the fact by how long each review was that I started losing the interest of giving an extremely detailed review of each one. When I did "Ancient and Justified," I wasn't aware the other two were similar and I gave a detailed review. The other two I didn't do as much because I kind of just lumped my opinions of the first article into those as well. My point is, I think that it's better to have them separated so that the articles can be evaluated individually instead of as "those articles."

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing how the articles progressed! As I said in the first one, I'm amazed by the rate of them and how well they are developing. Keep up that awesome work!
posted by User:Thunderforge

That's a good bit of advice. When there are some more listed, we'll have to move some of ours further back in the queue, so that they don't all get to the front at once again. --kingboyk

It's not bad advice if it leads to more passes. I'm not sure it's altogether fair that one reviewer takes three articles from outside their experience. --Vinoir 01:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree with you there. I think some basic understanding is required, which is why I wouldn't dream of reviewing Abstract algebra. But there we go, it's not the end of the world. --kingboyk 02:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Vinoir, do you fancy reviewing an article off the list? I can offer you such cut choices as Field theory (mathematics), Abstract algebra, or the eminently more satisfying Mandy Moore! ) --kingboyk 01:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, go on then. I'll take Abstract algebra. I did have a look at the maths ones the other day with a view to reviewing, but was too tired to enter the "zone". Your prompting has nudged me though... --Vinoir 01:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I should've gone for Mandy Moore... :) --Vinoir 03:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You write beautifully. They can't argue with that! Seems like a fair, well explained review. Good work! --kingboyk 04:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Vinoir 00:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quick!

Quick, have a look at this! Your very own JAMS-mobile, rofl! --kingboyk 02:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow, good spotting. You know what, I'd've loved that. If this were November instead of April I'd've been in the market for a camper and would've gone for it. --Vinoir 02:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I was at klf.de trying to find a scan of Pete Robinson's Justified and Ancient history booklet. That was in their news section. Check your inbox for something else I found. ~~(Oh, I've also found another site with press clippings, including a nice piece from 1987 - [7]).~~ --kingboyk 02:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Forget it, I think they're all in the Library of Mu. --kingboyk 03:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic, I'm now downloading. It's like Christmas, this. I wish I'd got good KLF things to give you in return mate. And cheers for the Brits mpg too, I'll get that on-line soon. --Vinoir 03:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you get the "wants list" I sent you? And, I don't suppose you have the Omnibus documentary do you? --kingboyk 03:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't have your "wants list" or Omnibus, I'm afraid to say. Please resend your list (sorry to be a pain) and I'll gladly have a look. Do you have much of the vinyl, just out of curiosity? --Vinoir 04:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I have most of the UK CD singles (if not all apart from Doctorin'), a UK White Room CD, UK Shag Times CD (Ebay), Waiting for the Rites of Mu, US Chill Out and White Room/J&A, a few bootleg CDRs. As for vinyl, quite a lot of it but I forget what... a bootleg 1987, Whitney, WKTJ, WTIL Echo & bunnymen, mmm... a few other bits and pieces but I forget what. I have one of the DJ mixes on vinyl too (a KLF megamix). --kingboyk 04:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't resend the list yet by e-mail, I had problems downloading the mash-up and so the mailbox is still full while I download again. --Vinoir 04:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doctorin'

Hehe... you were right to remove that claim that the BBC banned Doctorin'. According to this, Radio 1 played it 14 times in the week of release! :P --kingboyk 18:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Crikey, Piering did well with that one! However, the ban that I cited Drummond about was for the original All You Need Is Love.

Whoops! :P --kingboyk 05:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What an absolute cracker that Divide & Kreate mash-up is! I listened to it eight times in succession on headphones. Corking stuff, ta! :) It takes three versions of 3 a.m. Eternal! I'm very surprised that whoever is responsible was able to isolate the parts so well, actually - how could Drummond's rap be lifted so cleanly?! --Vinoir 00:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I know, it's very clever - I was amazed that they even worked "London by night all alone" in there. And isn't Bill's rap with Motorhead's guitars simply awesome?! I saw a blog thread saying that KLF vs ENT could have been one of the greatest punk combos of all time, and I think on that evidence the writer isn't wrong. It (3a.m. with ENT) is quite possibly their finest hour. (I'm rather partial to IGUN too, which was of course a candidate for an earlier planned Black Room). --kingboyk 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Mashed by a true fan, I think. I'm a big fan of IGUN too, and America. Big bad metal would've been a good move for them. My favourite will probably always be Chill Out though. "Blue Danube", "808Bass" and "Bunnymen" are also superb remixes. --Vinoir 11:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at divideandkreate.com. I'd recommend downloading their remix of "Jolene", it's top notch. --kingboyk 08:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An interesting thread for you

[8] Down the bottom, in case you don't get that far: "compare Coler & Richardson's output by themselves (one novelty single of the theme to computer game Lemmings) to Cauty (eg The Red Red Groovy, 1987: What The Fuck Is Going On?, A Huge Evergrowing Brain That Rules From The Centre Of The Ultraworld, Fuck The Fucking Fuckers) and Drummond's (eg Peru/The Lonely Spy, Prime Mover, The Man, 1987, Gimpo, The Blizzard King) output without them, and claims of "the engineer did it all!" start to look more than a bit feeble. They were employed for their technical ability, not for their powers of creative instigation." --kingboyk 16:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acid Brass

Do you think you could add a brief mention of 2K to the Acid Brass article? I tried but couldn't find a wording I liked. --kingboyk 10:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Bump. More important now (and easier as we have an article to link to :)) --kingboyk 19:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Done, in a flabby kind of a way for now. I'll see that Acid Brass gets a makeover at some point. --Vinoir 09:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abuse of edit summaries

Dear Sir,

It has come to my attention that person or persons operating under your user account posted the following edit summary:

"There is no reprise in "Eclipse" really...as a matter of fact it's in "Time""

Very droll!! <smiles> --kingboyk 21:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh-heh, nice to know such whimsies don't go completely unnoticed... :) --Vinoir 21:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justified & Ancient

I promoted J & A to good article status, hits all the right buttons. Had no idea how much KLF stuff was already at GA until I updated the lists, good work fella. Deizio talk 20:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That's fantastic news. Thank you very much. The progress with KLF articles is every bit as much credit to kingboyk too. We're chuffed with what's happening, and cheers again for your favourable assessment of Justified and Ancient. --Vinoir 15:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Have you checked your user page today? --kingboyk 15:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Certainly have, mate, and was then replying on your user page. It's a funky decoration, and I'm chuffed to bits, thanks muchly! --Vinoir 15:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)