Talk:Vilnius

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Contents
Vilnius
View of Vilnius from Šeškinė
Location in Lithuania and Europe
Coordinates :
52°31′07″N, 13°24′30″E		 Time zone :
UTC+1/SummerUTC+2
Coat of arms Grand Coat of arms
Coat of Arms of Vilnius
Grand Coat of Arms of Vilnius
Basic information
Area 402  km² City
Population 553,904 (2005)
 ???? Urban Area
Density  ????/km²
Elevation  ??34 - 115 m
Government
Country Lithuania
Subdivisions 21 Subdivisions
Mayor Juozas Imbrasas
Governing Parties Liberal and Centre Union
Website www.vilnius.lt

[edit] Further article development

It is time to improve this article. M.K. 23:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

For progress and active participation see Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/General sandbox (talk also)


I suppose the content ouline could be something like this:

  • History → already there, just maybe shortern & refine, add citations.
  • Geography and climate
  • Demographics
  • Law and goverment → explain municipality, sister cities, institutions of central gov located in Vilnius, etc.
  • Economy and infrastructure
    • Economy
    • Transportation (public, rails, airports, streets, highways)
    • Media
    • Health
    • Utilities (optional)
  • Education
  • Culture
    • Parks and museums
    • Architecture and arts → include art festivals
    • Religion
    • Tourism and sites of interest
    • Nightlife
    • Sport
  • Footnotes, references, see also, etc.

Objections? I used Boston, Belgrade and Vancouver for inspiration. Renata 23:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, Media? V. Tower; LRT other stations what else? BTW, I think we need an image of Vilnius in infobox as Paris, Berlin M.K. 10:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Check the articles on featured cities at WP:FA#Geography and places and see what they have that is missing here.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I made some sort of pattern for further development of the article. M.K. 13:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking better already :) Am having some sort of weird writer's block that will hopefully go away soon. When it does, would like to separate religion into sub-sections: Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Orthodox, Islamic, and other - there must be Buddhists and pagans too. Religious tolerance is a strong point of the city so IMO deserves extra treatment. Novickas 14:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you will recover soon. Some Šližikai could help or šimtas gramų :) Btw, good suggestion to split religion into separate sections. M.K. 16:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the Šližikai, they might make her sleep, the šimtas gramų might be better. Dr. Dan 18:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Dose calibration has been performed by Lithuanian relatives, with the determination that 50 grams makes the Lithuanian language flow more freely, 100 grams induces nesamone. No analagous data with regard to English-language production. Novickas 18:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Lol, I must have spent too much time in the East under communism, because 50 grams would only "prime the pump". Dr. Dan 19:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Renata, is this infobox, which is present in article, can have additional images? M.K. 16:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Not at the moment. It's easy to fix, just that where to put the map and COA? You know, to avoid image clutter. Renata 18:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Just made some sketch much info needed also some more lined to. M.K. 23:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No, no, no :) It mixes two different things: municipality with Vilnius. Vilnius as such has no political power. Zuokas is mayor of municipality, not Vilnius. Vilnius also has no area defined: only municipality. I guess I need to write a nice section on the whole city/city municipality mess... Renata 02:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes yes it is just a sketch :) I had to fill lines with something to avoid empty spaces, plus I was never good in municipality affairs. M.K. 10:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)P.S. some numbers are wrong in infobox too.

The new infobox is very nice, I'd like to see it in the article ASAP.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think we should add an "famous people from..." section to this article. Many famous people have their roots and strong ties with Vilnius. For ex. French writer Romain Gary. --Karolis-lt (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images which will be used

for infobox?

Synagogue

they seem not as good as other alternatives, especially in the terms of colour reproduction (see Vilnius Old Town, Šnipiškės, Antakalnis, Žirmūnai etc.) Iulius 10:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

yup, your images are the best, please produce more! M.K. 12:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
so there they are Iulius 12:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Superb castle hill shot!!!!! BTW, do you participating in miestai.net? M.K. 12:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
No. More than that :D Iulius 13:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
So this means your are one of masterminds of miestai.net :) M.K. 18:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
No I am not related to it in any way.Iulius 18:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
A, I see. M.K. 17:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The image of downtown Vilnius at [1] would IMO be a good candidate for infobox, except that it's low-res. Maybe someone could try to reproduce that shot? Novickas 18:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

We have winter now in Vilnius, besides it is raining... Having in mind the impressive focal length such image requires, the task seems too impossible. Iulius 10:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of good info sites

A list of sites for this article (Novickas 17:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Yup M.K. 17:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question: Vilnius vs Vilnius city municipality

This comes up so often... And it needs to be addressed now. For a long time I have insisted that city and city municipality articles would be two different things. However, I start doubting it's usefulness because of the confusion and the fact that in reality those two are not that different. I don't really know how to properly explain the difference... So, what do ya think? Should Abc city municipality simply redirect to Abc? LT Wikipedia did just that. Renata 10:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal, at least with regard to Vilnius; if the only difference between the two is the town of Grigiškės, population 11,000 (about 2% of the total), and "a few rural areas", this discrepancy could be noted in the Geography section. Novickas 17:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I really do not know that is better in this situation. I also thinking, maybe we need some sort of General sandbox in WP:LITH, there we can discuss and have a article sketch instead experimenting on real article? The same general sandbox we can use for other articles when big contributor team is involved. M.K. 17:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Sandbox sounds like a good idea. But don't know enough about them to create it. Novickas 17:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
My problem with it, is that it's too close to the lead. The importance of Vilnius being the historical and present capital of Lithuania is paramount. Its other functions can be explained in detail, lower down in the article. Or if it's not too much trouble to do so, in seperate articles. In any case, it's much better now than it was previously. Dr. Dan 18:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/General sandbox our experiments with this article should go here. M.K. 18:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Names

Shouldn't the historical names of the city be in the article itself?--Hhielscher 01:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

They should. It's a masterpiece of propaganda to use the historical name Wilno as a Polish name for Vilnius, introduced only in 1920. Xx236 14:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but it was discussed in the archives and several users who are activly maintaining the article find names in other languages apparently offending.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This issue seems to have stabilized in the Kaunas entry, shall we copy that? Novickas 22:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

That's perfectly acceptable - see also WP:NCGN which supports such solution.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe that any historical article should inform about the changes of the names or institutions, because it's a part of history. I have added the Latin name of the Vilnius University. The name Vilnius didn't dominate during hundreds years, so the article misinforms. The history of Wrocław by Davies and Moorhouse includes many names of the city, how can the truth be offending? Xx236 07:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Another good example is Lviv: the article exhibits, besides the current Ukrainian name, its historical names in German, Polish and Russian, Tsf 13:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Those Polish editors insisting upon this "academic necessity" can lead the lead the way by adding all the non-Polish toponyms to Polish cities and towns on English WP. Dr. Dan 13:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
We already did it years ago, back in the times where there were only two Lithuanians in our wiki community (AFAIK only Linas and Linas Lituanus, I might be wrong on this one though). Check Talk:Gdansk archives to see the details. //Halibutt 13:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello everyone. According to the convention in force (WP:NCGN), this article should have a separate Names section briefly discussing (or at least listing) "relevant foreign language names:, that is the names "used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". I think this solution would be much better than the present state, when the article simply refers to a generic table in another article. However, I know that this issue turned out to be somewhat sensitive in the past, so I am asking here whether there is anyone objecting inclusion of such a paragraph. It would be nice if you could also explain your reasons. Tankred 00:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello, the inclusion of selective name made reverts dues to several reasons among other and "this should go first", this "should be included also despite that it is not used in en". Besides there was argument about this and the contributors made clear that such link to alternative names is good solution [2]Sadly they already forgot this. Besides you should look to Warsawa and Cracow articles, they do not have even this link... M.K. 10:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tankred's rationale and have created a Names section in accordance with NCGN. If knowledgeable editors could expand upon the section to explain the etymology of "Vilnius", that would be appreciated. The reason why the Warsaw and Kraków articles do not have such sections yet is because no one has made them yet; be bold! I have no qualms about making such such sections in the future, but others are welcome to as well. Olessi 23:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. And bet you a case of wiki-beer you will not see a revert war over such sections, nor mega-long discussions about why they are bad :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The name Wilno isn't foreign, because there exists a big Polish minority in the city. Xx236 07:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Not foreign" language is official language in that country or region. AFAIK Polish isn't official language in Vilnius or Lithuania, so yeah, it IS foreign. 213.226.167.200 23:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

When you buy the Wikipedia you will define basic words. At the moment standard definitions and standard logic are obligatory. My guess is that the best name for nonofficial is nonofficial, not foreign. Xx236 (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the establishment of Vilnius University by the King Stephen Bathory in 1579

The statement is false - Bathory didn't establish any Vilnius University but Almae Academia et Universitas Vilnensis Societatis Jesu. And he was a king in the Kingdom and a prince in the Duchy, as written in Vilnius University. Xx236 09:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The article should be edited in the workshop until it is ready for release.

There are two articles and two discussions. What is the idea of this double-job?Xx236 12:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Editing in non-main space is very bad for two reasons. First, very few editors will know about it and I have seen many such projects stalled and forgotten for years in various non-mainspaces, wasting whatever effort the originators put into it. Second, if such a project goes on, it will either waste efforts of most editors who happily edit the mainspace article, not knowing about the project, or at the very least will require a merger.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HOW MANY SISTER CITIES HAS VILNIUS?

In article is writen: "Vilnius has 14 sister city". Then, below, there are 17 cities in list with flags. Then I went to VILNIUS CITY MUNICIPALITY official city guide www.vilnius.lt/new/en/gidas.lt and found only 13 sister cities. How many are there?

[edit] Ethnic Lithunians were being forced to leave the city and the use Lithuanian language was banned in public

  1. Source please.
  2. Many educated Lithuanians left the city to take posts in Lithuania. Strange lack of knowledge.Xx236 13:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The number of ethnic Lithuanians

Which city has more ethnic Lithuanians - Vilnius or Kaunas?Xx236 13:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic composition ca 1920

I removed the highly questionable:

Poles alleged that ethnic Lithuanians constituted only a small minority, and that Polish speaking Lithuanians and Lithuanian Jews still made up a majority of the population of the city.

The definition of ethnicity of the population was then - and apparently still is, at least here - a matter of a controversy. Poland claimed tho Polish-speakers to simply be Poles, Lithuania claimed them to be Lithuanians who temporarily lost their original language. The latter, quite controversial thesis was apparently repeated in the text above. Contrary to the underlying suggestion were the Lithuanian Jews (Litvaks) using Lithuanian - it was rather Yiddish, Russian or Polish. My proposition is to use more neutral terms "polish (or Yiddish) speakers" without trying the highly controversial definition of the underlying ethnicity. --Arts2 08:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you read or reread Unton Sinclair's The Jungle for a better understanding of the issue. Even though the work is "fiction", you'll get a feel of how wrong you are about ethnicities and linguistics within the first chapter. Please remember that these people were not Szlachta either. Dr. Dan 20:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic composition now

Poles - 18.7% Vilnius or 19.4% Vilnius city municipality? Xx236 (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This place is for discussion

Xx236 (talk) 14:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the former Soviet NKVD school

It used to be a militsia school. The comment, if true, would be useful rasther in the article about the university or in a historical one.Xx236 (talk) 10:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wilno being the name of Vilnius in Polish

The phrase says that some foreigners came to the city called Vilnius and imposed their exotic name Wilno. Xx236 (talk) 08:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It really did happen exactly this way. Since 14th century there are known Russian and German quarters in the Lituanian city, and no mention of Polish quarter. Furthermore - Lithuanian speaking territory was not only around Vilnius city, but also a big part of modern Western Belarus. The situation changed abruptly in 19th century, during forced Russification and Polonization. Or would you imply that Gediminas was living in city Wilno? --Lokyz (talk) 11:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

If you claim that Gediminas was living in the city Vilnius, would you please quote a source (probably in Latin or in some Eastern Slavic?)? No English language site gives such a source or at least I haven't found one. The article contains a link to a Lituanian site [3] where VILNA is written.

The situation changed during a long period when Ruthenian became replaced by Polish as a language of GD.

Who exactly committed the forced Polonization in Russia? The tsars during a brake between executions and deportations to Siberia? What was the most popular language in the city before the Polonization? Name an academic source it was Lithuanian. It's interesting that Polonization of Lithuanians in Sejny failed. Were Sejny Lithuaninans better than the Wilno ones?

The sentence Wilno being the name of Vilnius in Polish refers to 1922. The name Wilno was used hundreds years before 1922, so this sentence misinforms a reader. Xx236 (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population

I understand the population of Vilnius has declined, due mainly to out-migration, since independence. Perhaps a Lithuanian editor could supply statistics on this? Sca (talk) 19:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Forced Lithuanization of Vilnius - big success

According to http://www.delfi.lt/ 60% of Vilnius inhabitants are ethnic Lithuanians. It's allegedly the highest result in the history of the city.Xx236 (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since when? Since establishment or since complete Polonization in 19th century? --Lokyz (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You read Lithuanian, don't you? Xx236 (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you ?--Lokyz (talk) 11:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Instead to check my statement, you change the subject. This place is to discuss the article, not me.Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)