Talk:Viking Age/Archive 1

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Definition of Viking

It is written: During this period, Scandinavian warriors and traders, called Vikings.

Before removing viking, I ask for 1 single written source indicating that a scandinavian tradesman was called vikings. (History records dating from the actual time, not 1900 misinterpretions) Dan Koehl 14:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article states "The Viking longships were uniquely suited to both deep and shallow waters," which is not true. The boats vikings used is extremely less known, but it can on good grounds be belived that they used the normal longship developed by scandinavian boatbuilders, and primarily used in the scandinavian defence navy, the leiding.

The map below states viking territories, which wasnt viking territories. The country of Sweden as an example, was never, ever viking territory. Dan Koehl 10:44, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

partly agree. That's why I added the cleanup notice. However, if we include extortion of taxes (Danegeld) in Viking activities, Sweden was very much "Viking territory" under Olof of Sweden, dubbed "the Tax-king", who took huge amounts of silver from England to Sweden. You may say, it's piracy on a small scale, but it's imperialism on a large scale, though :o) dab 10:51, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sweden, as a country, was not viking territory, (Source????)

Olof as king was even expelled from the throne by democratic election of the thing, and he had to go to Västergötland and stay the rest of his days. The swedes elected a new king. If, Olof was so rich, and so powerful, and a "viking", or "wiking-king" in possesion of this "wiing-territory", he would surely have remanined in power, which he didnt, because there was no viking terroritory there at all, it was run as everywehere else in sweden.

I am very glad, you are starting to joke, a little bit though, and that you prably see how I am trying to get both angles of the comlicated topic viking "a chance to speak", but foremost, that a visitor to the Wikipedia can get a balanced, modern view of this topic, fed with neutral information, so they can establish their own opinion based upon facts.

The map is still completely wrong, may I remove it?

Dan Koehl 11:54, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In what sense the territory of modern Sweden ever was "Viking territory" entirely depends on the definition of "Viking", which is given in the intro and "Etymology" section of Viking. Olof "inherited the throne of Sweden and became its sole ruler". Just because he had to abdicate, you conclude he was never in power? what gives?? "Sweden, as a country" did not yet exist. History of Sweden: "During the 12th century, Sweden gradually became a unified Christian kingdom". During the Viking Age, there was no "Sweden", only Swedes. dab 12:20, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It gives, Dab, that sweden was swedish territory. Nothing else. Kings came and went, but he territory of sweden, was swedish. Not viking territory. The only exception when sweden was not swedish territory, is during the union with denmark. And 1520 it became swedish again.

Of course it was not called sweden, why on earth should we use an english name for our country? The name was Svitjod. The text on the article Stitjod states: Svitjod or SvíÞjóð, is an ancient name for Sweden. It appears in Beowulf as Sweoðeod, and in Jordanes as Suetidi.

Another written source is tacitus.

As I already told you, and which can be validated by sources, is that we effectively defended our country against vikings, and therefore it was never a "viking-territory".

Do you argue this? Do you argue our history? Why?

Dan Koehl 12:37, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It depends how you wish to determine what makes a land viking. First of all Varangians are commonly considered a type of viking - a sub-category if you will.

It follows from logic that if some vikings/varangians come from a specific place - then this place is home to, among others, vikings. Logically: a viking homeland. It may also be a Christian land or a Swedish land or a Varangian homeland - it may be a lot of things. One thing you certainly could call it is: Viking.

My point is: There isn't any certain definition. Quite a few of the vikings that raided the British isles and French coasts came from the inhabited parts of Sweden - and if we accept Varangians as vikings it's certainly not entirely without merit to call Sweden a "viking homeland".

Celcius 07:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that this entire discussion is missing the simple fact that to be a viking was a profession, like being a smith or a shepherd. There is no such thing as a viking homeland. It would be like saying 'the blacksmith homeland'. Just because the sea raiders of Scandinavia have a proper noun attached to their profession does not make their work much different from, say, the similiar sea raiders who had a merry time plundering Britain and other nearby lands during the time of the Roman Empire from their homes in what is now Frisia. The difference lays in the degree to which each group became known to other peoples, not the actual profession. P.MacUidhir 16:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no correct use of Viking, only uses.

• If we have a look at a medieval use of Viking, the Old Norse víkingr meant a "pirate", and there was a distinction between common folks and Víkingr. However, in practice, for non-Scandinavians, this distinction was hardly relevant. It was one of the main uses of the leidang and one of the king's duties to gather as many "ordinary Scandinavian men" as possible to go pillaging abroad. For the people on the receiving end (Curonians, Englishmen, etc) it was of little interest to distinguish between ordinary Scandinavians and Vikings.
• The 20th century use ot the term Viking is "Viking Age Scandinavian". This is not incorrect because it is a common extension of the term Viking and an extension that people expect to see in a Wikipedia article.--Wiglaf 21:41, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I think I should just notify you (if you haven't already noticed) that all edits to this page before Calcius's, on Aug. 26, 2005, were made in 2004 and have no participants any more, so you will probably not get any replies. It fooled me once too. Ever since 2004, the article was stuck with a "NPOV"-tag, which I removed a few months ago, not seeing anyone who disagreed with it any longer (please see the article history for exact date). Fred-Chess 21:25, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

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"Sweden":

"Svitjod" = "tribe of the Suiones". Early Swedish Kingdoms: "In those days the kings were warlords rather than kings as we understand that title today, and what was to become Sweden, Norway and Denmark in a modern sense, were a number of petty kingdoms whose borders changed constantly as the kings killed each other. "

tired of cranksitting: dab 08:28, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cranksitting? Sorry I dont know the definition of this word. If its an insult, it passed by me...

Dab, you are refering to the viking age. (beginning at between 793 and 800?) During this time the german emperor recieves an offical visit from 2 diplomats from the King of sweden, requesting a bishop for (the already existing) christian society in the town Birka. The town Birka was under protection of the king. This is recorded in documents. The bishop Ansgar arrived in 829, and a chirch was erected, although it was probably one existing before. You may call this king petty, or bananas or whatecer you may choose, but his castle and the envoronment for his central administration is exccavatad, therefore fully proofed of its existence, as well as one of the selected World Heritage Sites. Nowhere, is there stated that this was viking territory. In year 800 this territory was defended against attacking vikings, with and without success.

I see now that you try to proof that sweden was a viking territory during the viking Age, by means of stating that our kingdom was petty etc. Well this might be true, but a destiny we share with many other countries during this time. That our kingdom in year 800 was not the same type of kingdom as today, is no proof that your map stating sweden as viking territory is correct, that pseudoscientific.

You have not named a written source for the statement in the map that the kingdom of sweden was viking territory.

Would you find it correct if I put a map on the page of vikings with some green paint on the areas of the present switzerland and claim that as viking territory (and when you change that start an edit war?)

Cite from Wikipedia:WikiProject History: Verifiability is an important tool to achieve accuracy, so it is strongly encourage to check facts.

You seem to be interested (although confused about) scandinavian history. Would it be possible to make a step towards a direction of cooperation rather than a silly war, with insultments and theaths of making revertings of what I write? Dan Koehl 09:11, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Started Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Scandinavia, Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Sweden, Wikipedia:WikiProject Vikings in order to get structure. My suggestion is to aviod humiliations, edit wars and threats, and try to focus how to bring the articles to a better quality in connection to those projects.

Dan Koehl 11:39, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What does a church and a castle have to do with determining a viking land? Knud the Great was Christian and even visited the Vatican - he was most certainly still a viking nonetheless. "Viking" does not refer to religion.

A substantial part of the viking influence on sorrounding countries and cultures emanated from Sweden either in the form of small Swedish fleets raiding Ireland, England or France and mercenary bands hired into Danish or Norweigian fleets in addition to the massive Swedish Varangian influence in the Baltics and Russia.

This is why Sweden can be described as a Viking homeland or Viking territory if you wish.

Celcius 07:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

KEEP, this article gives a good overview of some aspects of the Viking age. "Swedish" viking era history is not very well recorded. I belive the map in question is an excellent illustration. HAa

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Aptiva: The "iceland" part of this article is pure BS. Iceland was named Iceland by a man called Hrafna Flóki, he settled here with his livestock and family in the summer, however, he didn't prepare well enough for the winter(which can be rather cold here in Iceland) so he lost all of his sheep and more. When that happened he was naturally very mad, as soon as the summer came, he moved back to norway and told everyone this was the land of Ice or.. Iceland. Greenland however was discovered some time after Iceland (and was discovered by an Icelander) by a man called Eiríkur Rauði, When he found his new country he was desperate to get people to move there so he gave it an attracting name, "Greenland" the name was just to attract settlers

South America

The fllowing text was added to the article, which I think is questionable, and as such lacks sources other than a few books top coroborate the claims. It needs at least some secondary sources that agree with this. --KimvdLinde 17:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

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There is a very substantial body of physical evidence to the effect that Vikings settled vast tracts of Bolivia and Paraguay during the three centuries from about 1000 AD. The academic community appears resolved not to admit the pertinent archaeological findings to the historical record. This is not because the academics fault the evidence, but because they cannot admit the evidence without recognizing the archaeologist responsible for discovering and excavating the various sites, a fugitive Nazi war criminal. The locality was found and researched initially by Fritz Berger, an aging mechanical engineer from the Sudetenland who had allegedly been a drifter for many years in Brazil. Between 1932 and 1935, he collaborated with the army of Paraguay against Bolivia during the War of the Chaco. His whereabouts from 1936 to 1940 are not known except that at times he explored terrain in the Brazilian State of Parana adjacent to Paraguay under the pretence of prospecting for petroleum. He had no knowledge of geology and found no petroleum, but it at least explained his interest in the region. Whether Berger was a drifter or an agent of one or other of the German espionage services is unknown, but the latter seems likely.

In about March 1940, Berger contacted Major Marcial Samaniego of the Paraguayan Army, an engineer officer with an interest in local history, and as a result of certain information which Berger provided, the two men set up a body known as Agrupacion Geologica y Arqueologica (AGA) which used a company of sappers to excavate the locations in which Berger had expressed an interest. In the opinion of Paraguayan officers, Berger was either psychic or had access to a fund of accurate secret information enabling him to identify certain locations of special interest to historians researching the Viking period. In 1944 an announcement was made to the world Press regarding certain finds AGA had made, but in view of the lack of response, AGA was dissolved in 1945. Berger remained in Paraguay excavating at the various sites until his death in 1948.

In 1975, a professional team comprised of archaeologists, engineers and runologists petitioned the Paraguayan Minister of Defence, General (formerly Major) Marcial Samaniego for Paraguayan Army assistance to dig in the Cerro Cora region and elsewhere. The archaeological work was perfomed under the auspices of the Instituto de Ciencia del Hombre of Asuncion and culminated in a book El Rey Vikingo del Paraguay published in 1979 by Hachette. This article is a synopsis of the book. Its author, and the expedition leader, was Professor Jacques de Mahieu (1915-1990), a French anthropologist. During the Second World War, de Mahieu had served as an officer with the SS-Division Charlemagne and as a result of his activities had been sentenced to death in France on 14 counts of war crimes. For this reason he had fled to Argentina at the cessation of hostilities. It is simply because the modern scientific community cannot recognize a Nazi war criminal as one of its own that the evidence relating to the Viking occupation of Paraguay in the period 1000-1300 AD is considered "contaminated" and thus continues to be deliberately ignored.

Location The original site investigated by AGA is an area of low mountainous upland, jungle and scrub known as "Cerro Cora". It lies on the 56th parallel of longitude about twenty miles SSW of the twinned towns of Pedro Juan Caballero in Paraguay and Ponta Pora in Brazil.

The Post-Columbian Historical Tradition

Large scale silver ore mining in the pre-Inca period, begun about 1000 CE, has been proven scientifically by carbon-dating material found in Laguna Lobato at Potosi in Bolivia. Findings published in the journal Science on 26 September 2003 confirm a major technology for its time partly destroyed later by extensive Spanish plundering. Mark Abbott of the University of Pittsburgh stated that the Potosi silver industry was "up and running from about 1000 AD" but who was responsible for it, and where the pre-Incan silver went, "is a mystery."

The first post-Columbian expedition across South America from the Atlantic westwards to the Andes was in 1521 before the Spaniards established themselves in Paraguay. Alejo Garcia, a Portuguese in the service of Castile, survived a shipwreck off Santa Catalina, Brazil and from natives ashore he learned about the inland territory of "the White King", the owner of immense riches in silver and gold. With three companions, Garcia crossed the Guayra, the region separating the Atlantic from modern Paraguay, along a track in perfect repair. There is no doubt about this account, for in 1542 the Spanish explorer Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca wrote a chronicle confirming it in all details.

The track followed the north bank of the river Paranapanema and crossed the great Rio Parana to a settlement marked on the oldest maps as Ivinheima. (IVIN - Old High German Iwa, HEIMA - Old German heim - country). This place is now known by the Guarani name "Yguarey" ("River of the Dwellers of Antiquity"). The iva was a tree whose red wood, tough but flexible, was used by the Norsemen to make their bows: in this region the Gyauaki Indians used the acrocomia-tatai palm for the same purpose. From Ivinheima the track crossed the mesopotamia and Cerro Cora ridge (the central location of this article) to San Fernando mountain on the east bank of the River Paraguay just above a settlement marked on the oldest maps as Weibingo: after crossing the river the traveller followed the path north west to Potosi. The name Weibingo comes from the Norse vej (path) and vink (sign) or vinkekl (angle) and therefore means either "signpost" or more probably "bend in the track", the point where the traveller, following the route from present-day Asuncion, had to turn left for Potosi in Bolivia. Neither Ivinheima nor Weibingo are names which might have roots in native Amerindian languages or Spanish.

On 6 January 1536 a fleet of about 14 ships under the flag of Castile arrived in the River Plate. This was a private expedition led by the wealthy adventurer Don Pedro de Mendoza. 300 sailors and 3250 soldiers of foot had embarked at Seville, including 150 Dutch and Germans, one of the former being Ulrich Schmidel of Straubing, Bavaria, an explorer of 18 years experience. Although listed as "a lancer", Schmidel was clearly a man of erudition, and it is probable that he was an agent of King Carlos V of Castile: he was received at court as "an adviser to His Majesty" upon his return. In Paraguay, Schmidel took part in one of the four expeditions from Asuncion to Bolivia, as his chronicle relates (Wahrhaftige Historien einer wunderbaren Schiffahrt, publ. Hulsius 1602). In Chapter 23 he mentions a stay at Weibingo, and in Chapter 24 a meeting near there with a tribe of natives, the Paiembos, from whom he solicited information regarding a people known as the "Caracarais". He received the answer that the Paiembos knew only what they had heard, that the Caracarais lived some distance away, that they "had much gold and silver", furthermore that they were "a very wise people like us Christians and had lots to eat."

In a recent newspaper article (La Nacion, Buenos Aires, 6 February 2006, p15/Sec. I), the President of the Argentine Academy of History, Don Juan Jose Cresto remarked, in connection with the foundation of Buenos Aires in 1536, that the true objective of Mendoza had been to reach the domains of the "White King" in the region of Sierra de la Plata (the mountain-range of silver) or Cerro Rico de Potosi, and this had been the reason why he had sent the main bulk of his force northwards.

In the 1930s, Major Marcial Samaniego was a young Paraguayan Army engineer officer stationed in the relatively unpopulated frontier zone of which Cerro Cora formed part. He had a passionate interest in ethnic affairs. Every night in his tent he recorded on magnetic tape the interminable stories told him by the aged local natives whose confidence he had won. His main aim was to preserve knowledge of the ancestral traditions likely to be soon lost with the onward march of civilisation and christianity. One particular extract of the Tupi-Guarani tradition - "The Great King of Amambay" intrigued him. He copied down: "In days gone by there reigned in this region a powerful and wise king called Ipir. He was a white man and wore a long blond beard. With men of his race and indigenous warriors loyal to him he lived in a large settlement on top of a small mountain. He had much-feared weaponry and possessed great riches in gold and silver. One day, however, he was attacked by savage tribes and disappeared for ever. That was what I was told by my father, and he was told it by my grandfather." All the Guarani tribes of Paraguay, Brazil and Bolivia recall this White King of antiquity. Major Samaniego was aware that indigenous traditions may distort facts but never invent them. The name Ipir has no meaning in Guarani, it is not a Guarani name and is foreign to the structure of the Guarani language whose words, with few exceptions, none of which end in -ir, finish in a vowel.

Sites Excavated by Professor Mahieu in Paraguay

1. Cerro Ipir

This mountain is no more than forty metres in height. It is a rocky hump with a central depression, covered over its lower regions with dense vegetation and above it with none, and thus called by the Guarani natives "Yvyty Pero" - Bald Mountain. Later it was renamed "Cerro Ipir" by the Paraguayan Government. There is a similar mountain with the same Guarani name 300 miles to the south, at the foot of which archaelogists have found some splendid runic inscriptions. Exactly where Berger gained the conviction that Bald Mountain was so important is not known, but he became convinced that the hill was a tumulus containing a subterranean palace built around the funeral chamber of a Viking king. Very soon afterwards he convinced Major Samaniego of the Paraguayan Army that he had found a very important site, and this led to the formation of AGA which contracted Berger as technical adviser. A shaft was discovered in the depression between the two humps of Cerro Ipir where Berger stated that gold would be found. Excavation work began and two gold items were reportedly discovered. All loose gold items and other valubable artefacts reportedly found have disappeared. Winter rains hampered the work which had proceeded no deeper than 18 metres by the end of 1941: by the end of 1942 a pneumatic drill had been brought in and a ventilation shaft sunk obliquely to meet up with the first. At 23 metres calculated from the head of the vertical shaft, the drillers encountered a continuous slab found impossible to break. The bits of the drill broke off one after another. Explosives did not even scratch the surface of what Berger considered to be "the roof of the subterranean palace". The witnesses stated that the material was undoubtedly artificial, and infinitely more durable than cement. A third attempt was undertaken in 1944 about 10 metres up from the base of the hill and an outer wall of the "palace" was discovered. It bore an indecipherable insciption, its characters eroded but definitely not the Latin alphabet. The strange cement of the wall impeded any further progress and the project was then abandoned. When the professorial team investigated the hill in 1977, at first glance archaeologist Professor Pistilli reported that nothing about it that suggested a tumulus as had been alleged by Berger. On further exploration, the 35-year old shaft and trenching were found intact but poorly preserved. After having seen a single rune on a wall, Professor Munk continued the excavation to the concrete inner wall. This was a whitish shade and contrasted with the reddish sandstone of which the ridge is composed. Munk confirmed that it was impossible to chip or even mark the material in any way with a pick or geologist's hammer: the interior sounded hollow. To determine whether the underground construction had the extension which Berger alleged, small explosive charges were detonated. It was noted that the vibrations radiated outwards at the same speed as in normal atmosphere to the 200 metre mark, the distance indicated by Berger, beyond that the compacted sandstone had a muffling effect. Efforts to find the entrance to the subterranean chamber were undertaken with teams of sappers, but could not be discovered.

2. Cerro Itaguambype The Cerro Cora range is a ring of mountains about five kilometres in diameter. It lies within a national park and a prohibited military zone. At one time in the past the area had been sub-tropical afforested jungle, but these trees have been felled and the terrain replanted with a stocky variety. A straight ridge to the north-east is Cerro Itaguambype (a Guarani word which means "fortress"). It is two kilometres long and 100 metres in height in relation to the interior plain, aligned north-south and on its crest has a path 300 metres long and three metres broad. At the south end of this path is a rounded raised platform and the ruins of a watchtower. About thirty metres from the south end of the path is an opening 20 metres wide leading into the interior of the mountain.

The base of Cerro Itaguambype is natural rock to which vertical walls had been added, or the natural rock had been tailored vertically. The walls are constructed of stone blocks of unequal size but fit into one another for a smooth surface. This method of construction is exactly similar to pre-Inca walls in Peru and Bolivia where the irregularity is a deliberate defence against seismic movements. Since Paraguay has no earthquakes worthy of mention, it seems logical to infer that the method must have been imported, for the native Guaranis never built in stone before the Jesuits arrived in Paraguay, while the Jesuits followed a different style of building and never settled the area. Professor Mahieu, who was not aware of the extent of silver mining at Potosi, decided that the men who built this wall must have learnt the technique in the Andes Altiplano and prior to the founding of the Inca empire, since the procedures were lost after the fall of Tiahuanacu by the Araucanos in about 1290. Professor Mahieu stated that the purpose of this fortified structure was not obvious. He was prepared to allow that the entire settled area of over a thousand square kilometres was "a cult site of some description".

(Under construction. Last entry 10.3.2006)