Talk:Vietnamese phonology

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[edit] comments/suggestions?

I have, so far, been the main contributor to this page. It is very unfinished and my research is very preliminary. So I urge you to read at your own risk.

I dont know the Vietnamese language. I, simply, enjoy the way Vietnamese sounds to my ear, and I wish to know a little more about the precise phonetic description of this language's sound system. This page is really just some notes to myself. I thought perhaps others plugged in to Internet might be interested in reading my notes, so I am providing them to this community (but hopefully a little more cleaned up). Since I have a background in linguistics, I may not provide enough explanation for some readers. Please ask for better explanations if the material is not clear.

I have not actually read all of the materials listed in the bibliography. In fact, I do not have all of these works. But I do have the majority of them.

I would be interested to know what native speakers have to say or anyone else who has comments, suggestions, questions, answers, etc.

One thing that I am concerned with is whether or not this article is becoming too specialized and therefore not suitable material for an encyclopedia.

Another thing I predict is that this article will become too big. We may need separate the phonology stuff from the orthography stuff. There already exists a small Vietnamese alphabet article.

Peace. — ishwar  (SPEAK) 04:32, 2005 Mar 28 (UTC)

[edit] On Phomenes

A lot of work has gone into it. Good on you. I did change one fact - that about "v"s not being pronounced in HCMC. That's not exactly true. It's a Mekong Delta thing to pronounce their "v"s as "j"s- the city siders generally pronounce their "v"s quite well.

There's one problem - which will need some work to address. The U with a hook (ư) is pronounced as /ɯ/, not /ɨ/. Basically, you take your /u/, and flatten the lips. The /ɨ/ sound occurs in Russian (which I tried to learn some years back), and that sound does not occur in Vietnamese.

(I live in HCMC, and have been learning the language.)

It's a tough thing to work out the IPA for a, â, ă and ơ. There's no standard trascription for these letters. Having an "Endnotes" for this "controversy" is a good idea, but maybe it belongs on another page.)

Anyway... well done! Tphcm

[edit] re /v/

hi. thanks for your comments. although i dont doubt your observations, perhaps "generally pronounc[ing] their 'v's quite well" is a bit more complex. i note that your observation is contrary to the some works i have read (e.g. Thompson 1965, Nguyễn 1997). i list some relevant bits:

Thompson (1965:85):
"Bas-Annam. The general characteristics of Đà-nẵng speech apply for the most part to the balance of the territory of south central Viet Nam.... Somewhere not far north of the Saigon region [v] disappears; it is replaced by [j], which everywhere from Huế south resembles English y in you, yes. An early picture of this area is presented in Cadière 1911. The correspondence of Cochinchinese [j] to [v] of other dialects is discussed historically in Maspero 1912 (pp. 41-42, 70-74)."
Thompson (1965:89):
"The lenis oral consonants in Saigon [v, th, r, l, g, h] are very noticeably more relaxed than their Hanoi counterparts. In addition there are a few other differences. Saigon [v] appears only before the semivowel [j] (4.22) and is itself palatalized in anticipation...
"vợ [vjợư̯] HN [vợư̯] wife
"The initial cluster [vj] corresponds to Hanoi initial [v]. Actually, this is a spelling pronunciation on the part of educated speakers in Saigon: the majority of the Saigonese (including many educated people) pronounce simply [j] in these forms. Some, then, add a [v] before the [j], knowing that the form is spelled with v. There are a few who pronounce a [b] sound before [j] in the same form; this sound is also lenis (quite unlike the sound heard in bài lesson)."
Thompson (1965:93):
"The clusters [vj, kw] seem obviously secondary introductions into the system based on knowledge of the spelling of the words involved; less educated speakers have simply [j, w] in these forms, and educated speakers, too, often use them in less careful speech.
"vừa [(v)jừâ̯] HN [vừâ̯] to fit, suit"
Thompson (1965:97):
"Although initial [w] is not distinguished from [v] by being preglottalized, the fact that [v] occurs only before [j], where [w] does not appear, places them together in a /w/ phoneme, as in Hanoi speech. (For those speakers who have a lenis stop before [j] this [b] clearly belongs to the /w/ phoneme, in place of the [v] just discussed). The semivowel [j] is seen to fill the empty position in the laminal column...."
Thompson (1965:98), in a chart of dialectal correspondences:
"ORTHOGRAPHY v; HANOI v; VINH v; HUE v; DA-NANG v; SAIGON (v)j; TRA-VINH j; "
Thompson (1959:459):
"/w/ Lenis labial oral nonsyllabics [sic].
Initial before /j/ : [v] palatalized.
/wjɑ`/ ‘and’
Before /y/, and after /i y u ʌ/ : nonsyllabic [u].
/wyŋ/ ‘Huân [family or given name]’, /twyŋ`/ ‘week’; /ˀiw/ ‘cherish’, /kyw`/ ‘sheep’, /ɑuw˜/ ‘sleep’, /ˀtʌw/ ‘unspecified location’, /ˀʌwŋ/ ‘gentleman’
Before syllabics other than /y/, and after /e a/ : nonsyllabic [ᴜ].
/kwen/ ‘forget’, /kwɑ/ ‘to pass’, /ɑwɑj`/ ‘outside’; /new´/ ‘if’, /ˀawŋ/ ‘bee’
After /ɛ ɑ/ : nonsyllabic [o].
/hɛw/ ‘pig’, /ˀtɑw/ ‘sick’ "
Thompson (1959:466):
"Note that aside from /ˀp ˀt wj/ all clusters have /w/ as second element.... The clusters /wj kw/ tend to disappear in less careful speech; the resulting forms are the same as the corresponding popular forms. Since these clusters are distinguished in the official orthography but are not present in the popular speech of the dialect area, it is reasonable to suggest that in the educated dialect of Saigon they represent artificial restorations under the influence of the written language.
/wj/ is replaced by /j/   /ja`/ ‘and’ "

So, basically what Thompson is saying is that generally southern-ish varieties dont have a contrast between [v](/[b]) and [j] unlike the northern and central varieties and in Ho Chi Minh City there is a situation of literacy affecting pronunciation and perhaps somewhat marginally the sound system. Thompson further analyzes this marginal [v]/[b] as an allophone of /w/ occuring before /j/.

Thompson's fieldwork was done during the 1950s. Several have noted that in big cities, such as Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, there has been a certain amount of mixing of varieties. So I would speculate that you may be observing (1) stronger influence of literacy (assuming, of course, that more Ho Chi Minh speakers have become literate since the Vietnam War) and (2) more influence of northern/central varieties on the Ho Chi Minh variety. Anyway, just a guess! It would be interesting to note if all speakers that you observe having [v] are literate and/or of the same socioeconomic background. I would also be interested in knowing if [v] is still as palatalized as Thompson describes.

There have been several phonological works written in Vietnamese which I havent seen (and probably will not be reading). There are a few PhD dissertations on Vietnamese phonology scattered here & there. These are all more recent than Thompson. They may have something on this. Also, Thompson's grammar explicitly does not claim to be a comprehensive study of Vietnamese language variation: he very pointedly states that there is little work in this area (as of 1965). (if you dont have this grammar, i could provide a biblio with references in Vietnamese). peace — ishwar  (SPEAK) 09:41, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

[edit] re /ư/

ok, my short answer: i dont know. traditional description is following Thompson (who is generally very accurate). what i remember from Han's studies in the 60s (i dont have a copy, just looked at them) is that she indicates that this vowel is central, not back. her evidence is the average frequency of the 2nd formant as measured with a spectrograph. but, i dont remember how she calculated F2. maybe she just reported it without any weighting of F3. (if you arent familiar with acoustic phonetics, the value of F2, i.e. the second formant, is generally a rough indication of horizontal tongue position. a high F2 indicates an advanced tongue & a low F2 indicates a retracted tongue.) there are a few researchers now that transcribe or otherwise indicate this vowel as central (i'm speaking of Brunelle & Pham). but, as i have mentioned before, i am not a Vietnamese linguist so i havent read all that much. i personally want some more data. anyway, i will read more & report back here. peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:27, 2005 July 31 (UTC)

[edit] re ǎ & â

Great article. I have two observations. This one is about the lax/tense vowels. The main difference between the short vowels and ǎ & â and the long vowels a & ơ is in their phonation. The long vowels are tense (using modal phonation), while the short vowels are lax (lax/slack phonation.) IPA uses a small circle under a phoneme to mark lax phonation. Vietphone (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re th

I am pretty sure th consonant is glottalized (glottalic egressive), regardless of southern/northern dialect. I think what you have pointed out as glottalized consonants: b, đ, plus th and maybe even kh, would become "pharyngealized" in emphasized speech, (whether they are ingressive or egressive seems to correlate directly with whether they are voiced or voiceless.) I mean, in emphasized speech, sometimes I can hear a pause or a RTR schwa between these consonants and the vowels that follow. (RTR = retracted tongue root.) By "pharyngealized" I mean the airway is not just closed at the glottis, but closed with tongue root closing the pharynx. For instance, the Vietnamese word thi sounds different from English word tea, not just in consonant... in emphasized speech, even the vowel sounds a bit different because of the tongue-root retraction. Anyway, too technical. I wish there is another place where people could talk more about Vietnamese phonetics in detail. Thanks for your hard work. The points I am raising may be too technical to be included. Vietphone (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

I have a small quibble. In normal usage, I've never heard the southern dialect being referred to as "Ho Chi Minh City dialect". It's either "Saigon dialect" (tiếng/giọng Sài Gòn) or "Southern dialect" (tiếng/giọng nam). Do any of your more recent references refer to it as "Ho Chi Minh City dialect"? DHN 04:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

hi.
using Ho Chi Minh City variety is just an arbitary editorial decision. older work refers to it as Saigon dialect. older still: Saigonese. as far as i can tell more recent works used Southern variety. i have seen Ho Chi Minh dialect somewhere, but this is not used in the majority of what i have read. i choose this because of the city's name change and because someone else on Wikipedia used HCMC dialect. if you (or anyone else) would prefer to use Saigon, then please change it.
as a linguist, i dont really like the word dialect due to all of the negative associations this word carries, regardless of this widespread use in popular writing. variety is a more neutral term (this term is common in linguistics).
so, i am not so interested in labels, just the phonology. you can make this editorial change with no objection from me. peace — ishwar  (SPEAK) 15:59, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

[edit] nh and ch

Hi. The article says:

In the Saigon variety the codas nh and ch do not exist.

Does this mean that these are pronounced differently? If so, how? I only speak a little Vietnamese and I'm not a linguist, but I've always had the impression these codas are always pronounced, although not always in the same way. Beautiful article. If it's somewhat finished, I may translate it to Dutch – as I've done with the main article on Vietnamese language already.

David Da Vit 11:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

hi. the Saigon variety does not have syllables ending in /c/ or /ɲ/. the proto-Vietnamese sounds that have remained in the North have merged with /t/ & /n/. so,
  • orthographic ch & nh = North /c/ & /ɲ/ = South /t/ & /n/
  • orthographic t & n = North /t/ & /n/ = South /k/ & /ŋ/   or   /t/ & /n/ (depends on environment)
  • orthographic c & ng = North /k/ & /ŋ/ = South /k/ & /ŋ/
using orthography here is confusing, so this should be clarified in the future (actually it simply needs to be written in the first place!). a helpful note is that the syllable-initial consonant letters represent mostly the southern varieties while syllable-final letters represent mostly the northern varieties. (no Vietnamese speaker will make all the contrasts that are suggested in the writing system.)
i dont think that the article is even halfway finished. (i havent even finished responding to one editor's comment up above). it doesnt have a phonological processes section yet. the discussion of tone is very empty. there is an 8-tone analysis that needs to be presented. Vietnamese tone is very complicated. i havent had time to figure it out yet. i am not saying dont translate, i think that you should (Vietnamese is a very nice language, after all). but it will have to be a living translation, just like the article is slowly growing. but, better yet, you can always go to source material which is listed in the article.
anyway, thank you reading. please offer suggestions if you have any. peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:14, 2005 July 31 (UTC)
Okay, I see. This clarifies a lot. I'm watching this article and one day I'll certainly translate it. It will indeed be "living" as you say, just as the Dutch article on Vietnamese language is living as the English version is being elaborated. And as for using the source material listed in the article: there isn't much material about Vietnamese language here in Belgium (where I live) and Wikipedia is one of the better sources I've discovered so far. Peace tot you too. David Da Vit 11:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some requests

Hi, the article looks great! But it would be nice if there were some discussion of how the sounds of the northern dialect map onto the sounds of the southern dialect and vice versa.

  • What do Southern /ʈʂ, ʃ, ʒ/ correspond to in the North?
  • What does Northern /z/ correspond to in the South?
  • Is the orthography pandialectal, or are words spelled differently in each dialect, based on pronunciation? What letters stand for which phonemes in each dialect? (We have this information for vowels at the very bottom of the page, but we don't have it for consonants at all.)

As for the pronunciation of final -ch and -nh above, it was said they're pronounced /c, ɲ/ in the North but /t, n/ in the South. But in Đinh-Hoa Nguyên's chapter "Vietnamese" in The World's Major Languages (ed. Bernard Comrie, Oxford University Press 1987, ISBN 0-19-520521-9), the author says they're pronunced /jk, jŋ/, so anh "elder brother" and bach "white" are pronounced /ɐjŋ/ and /bɐjk/ respectively. Is that a third dialect? Is it just a narrower transcription of /ɐɲ/ and /bɐc/? Is it a mistake? --Angr/tɔk tə mi 20:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the pan-dialectical nature of the orthography: In the early years of the 20th century when quốc ngữ was just becoming popular, everyone pretty much used their own orthography (Ho Chi Minh's revolutionary pamphlet Đường kách mệnh would be written as Đường cách mạng nowadays). After some conferences the issue was somewhat settled. However, the partitioning of the country in 1954 caused some differences to form: the North used an orthography based on the northern variety of Vietnamese while the South used its own variety. Some differences include bệnh (N) vs. bịnh (S), nhất (N) vs. nhứt (S), etc. After reunification, the Southern orthography gradually died out in favor of the Northern orthography. The orthography is not settled, however. There have been occasional recommendations to change it in favor of a more "scientific" approach: ph->f, d->z, đ->d, etc. Most of these never gained momentum, but some already have: the issue of i/y and over which vowel to place tone mark had been settled with textbooks favoring the i spelling (although everyone else use the y orthography) and placing the tone mark over the main vowel. DHN 00:21, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
hi. thank you for the comments. the correspondences will be written one day...
the analysis of Nguyễn is different from the analysis of Thompson. this is partly due to Hanoi variation (Nguyễn's speech is not the same as all Hanoi speakers). an article by Thompson discusses these different analyses:
  • Thompson, Laurence E. (1967). The history of Vietnamese final palatals. Language, 43 (1), 362-371.
(i have a pdf of this article if you are interested & dont have access to it...). the analysis of [c] as /k/ is supported by the funny distribution of [c] and by some phonetic data indicating that [c] is really articulated further back. there is a vowel [æ] which could be a realization of /ɛ/ or /ɐ/. Thompson notes that the glide [j] is not always present in his data. i dont have Thompson or Nguyễn's grammars with me right now, so i cant consult them.
i dont know what the status of /c/ is in all dialects. it was present in the Vietnamese of the 1600s. i need to get some info on other regions (i feel bad about their under-representation).
peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:09, 2005 August 1 (UTC)
I notice that Haiphong dialect is similar to Hanoi but it has the "right" r-, s- not same as x-, gi- d- r- not the same, and seems that tr- and ch- not the same. The endings -ch -nh are just [j]+velars.
There's finally a note about the final palatals. – ishwar  (speak) 19:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 8 tone

Would it be possible to hear (as briefly as you like) what you hope to cover under the Eight Tone Analysis? I'm using this article as help in my Vietnamese-learning (and it IS a help!) and I was wondering what further information might appear here... [philip]

hi. I dont remember exactly what it is (Vietnamese is not one of my areas of study). Basically, 2 of the tones in the 6-tone analysis are split up into 2 different tones each. The 8-tone is an older analysis that is assumed in traditional poetry & the like (before Vietamese was written in Roman characters). Recently, Pham's dissertation (2003) has presented evidence in support of 8 tones. If you are reading pedagogical stuff, then you probably will not encounter any mention of 8 tones. It would be harder to teach too because the current writing system only identifies 6 tones. You should also be aware that speakers in different regions of Vietnam have different numbers of tone (the north has 6, other places have less). None of this is in article, of course. peace – ishwar  (speak) 08:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this. It gets me somewhere! - philip

following Chinese, the eight system assumes the stopped syllable (with -p,-t,-c,-ch) to be separate tones. You may notice that those syllables only have sac and nang tone.

[edit] Comment: Imiraven

Imiraven 16:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Imiraven 06:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Writing that the letter "ă" represents the "ash" vowel is a serious mistake. It should be similar to the low central vowel [a] as in German "dann". Please check again.

hi. i believe that is what the article explains (i.e. that it is low central). can you point out where it says otherwise (because i cant seem to find it). peace – ishwar  (speak) 19:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Imiraven A sound similar to the ash vowel exists in Southern Vietnamese dialects and is represented by the letter "a", when it stands in isolation or doesn't stand before "nh."

[edit] Cleanup needed

There is a lot of good stuff here. All of it is pretty much relevant. However, I'd try to make it more consise. My ideas:

(a) Put the phototactics first. That would make a lot of the subsequent article make sense.

(b) Then make one table (not two) encompassing the consonants of Hanoi and HCMC. Add footnotes for which sounds only occur in one of the cities (e.g., "z").

(c) Then make two tables - one for initial consonants, and then one for coda consonants. A lot of the information is spread around the place. It would be nice to have it in one place.

(d) Then vowels.

(e) Finally tone.

(f) Finally, the rough appendix - showing the various symbols used by various authors for the same phoneme. Again, a little cleanup here would be good.

All honor and praise to "Ish ishwar", whose work made it possible.

--Tphcm 05:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

An example of this can be found here:

--Tphcm 08:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese-Vietnamese tone correspondence

Say what the correspondence between Vietnamese tones for Chinese loanwords vs. the Old Chinese tones is, if any. Jidanni (talk) 01:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)