Talk:Victory Christian Fellowship

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 10, 2007. The result of the discussion was nomination withdrawn.

This article was edited to make it more accurate and encyclopedic. Varsha Daswani 02:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The entry of Victory Christian Fellowship was reverted back to changes made on January 31, 2007, including an explanation of the connection between Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha Campus Ministries, with two third party sources.

Should you wish to discuss how to further improve the entry, please post your comments on this talk page rather than reverting the whole entry without including verifiable third party sources.

The external links to Maranatha were also removed for the following reasons:

  1. The Maranatha-Every Nation Timeline is not verifiable or a credible third party source. It is an anonymous blog.
  2. The Rick Ross Archive on Maranatha is irrelevant to the Victory Christian Fellowship entry on Wikipedia.
  3. Maranatha Exposed: A Blog of a Former Member is an anonymous blog and is therefore not verifiable or credible.
  4. Cults on Campus: Maranatha in the News is irrelevant to the Victory Christian Fellowship entry as well.

Since Wikipedia is a community, we hope we can use the talk page in reaching a concensus to create a great encyclopedic article.Varsha Daswani 04:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason for the revert was your wholesale deletion of the fact that the inital outreach was a Maranatha outreach. And this 2 nd revert is because your rewrite is much like a VCF broichure and not encyclopedic at all.Osakadan 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Osakadan seems to be vandalizing the Victory Christian Fellowship entry by inputting information not relevant to the page. None of his entries improve on the article. It also slants the topic towards Every Nation, not focus it on Victory Christian Fellowship. Please cite more reliable third-party verifiable sources before making other edits to this entry. Please also discuss your changes on this page. Iskongbayan 09:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not vandalization by any means. VCF was a major part Of Maranatha, and Maranatha was indeed controversial. Ever since I first included Maranatha in the page, VCF began deleting the reference as they try to downplay it.

VCF is also a major part of Every Nation and no discussion on VCF is complete with discussion about Every Nation. In fact, the head of VCF is a major player in Every Nation.

Perhaps you should call for mediation or list specific passages here that seem biased here and we can work on a compromise together.Osakadan 10:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


Victory Christian Fellowship was definitely a part of Maranatha, which is why it is included in the revision I have made on this entry. However, Maranatha was dissolved in 1989, and Victory Christian Fellowship exists independent of that. The entry of Victory links to Maranatha, which is relevant, but the other information, links, and references are irrelevant to the page.

Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of Every Nation, which is why the connection is explained in this revision. However, the entry of Victory should talk about Victory specifically, not go in detail about Every Nation--which should be done on the Every Nation page. The Victory entry should give the reader an encyclopedic, reliable, verifiable, neutral, and objective view of what Victory Christian Fellowship is.

The anonymous, unverifiable, and dubious links have also been removed once again. Include in this page information relevant to Victory Christian Fellowship, and let other information on Every Nation or Maranatha be in their own pages.

I hope we can achieve a concensus for this entry as well.Varsha Daswani 13:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the references to Maranatha and EN are minor. As they are such a large part of the history of VCF, they certainly warrant more than having their names mentioned in the article?

In 1984, Steve Murrell, Rice Broocks and their team of sixty-five students went to Manila for one month of outreach and evangelism. The initial outreach led to a congregation of 150 primarily college students, with expansion to more sites in Manila, and around the country.[3] This was under the auspices of the controversial group, Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). Under the leadership of Bob Weiner, MCM's mission was to bring students to know Christ, training a new generation of leaders. Such were their tactics that they were banned from a number of university campuses across the world. [4][5]

What are your objections to this paragraph? It is fact that Maranatha were controversial. It is fact they were banned from at least 3 university campuses. VCF cannot simple disavow their association to these controversies.Osakadan 13:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osakadan, you're saying that Maranatha is a large part of Victory Christian Fellowship. What's your proof for this? I'm new on wikipedia, but I think you're violating some of the pillars and content policies of Wikipedia. No original research is one such policy. Please cite credible sources to your contributions to this page. I saw on your talk page that the Victory Christian Fellowship entry is not the only one you have been trying to slant. You seem to have an agenda against Every Nation, or maybe against Victory Christian Fellowship. Please explain why this is. Your entries reflect a bias, which goes against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you on this. Iskongbayan 08:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Just an VCF person. It is a fact that even they do not deny. VCF was established from an "outreach" of MCM. IT existed as the Philipines branch of MCM until they disbabded in 1989.

You cannot just delete a history section. You can question things but yu cannot just delete a section outright.

Declasre your interests. Are you part of VCF?Osakadan 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the only one needing to declare interests here right now is you, Osakadan. I'm not the only person on W who sees your posts on this entry as acts of vandalism, slanting the article to your specific bias, and it is obvious you're willing to break W rules to do so. What's your agenda in all of this? Other people from your previous posts (not just on this one) have been trying to point out errors in your corrections. Please discuss your potential edits here first before reverting the article again to the version you're trying to espouse. Iskongbayan 02:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

As there seems no one else discussing this here, I would suggest these are VCF people.


What is your source for saying that Victory Christian Fellowship was a "major part" of Maranatha? These are weasel words and have therefore been removed from the entry.

The history includes the connection of Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha, as well as Victory and Every Nation. Other information on either of these two organizations does not belong in this entry.

This entry was made more encyclopedic to reflect without bias what Victory Christian Fellowship is.Varsha Daswani 04:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to thank Seraphimblade for pointing out that wikipedia entries should not sound like an advertisement. However, I think the vision statement is essential in this article to best define Victory Christian Fellowship. I have attached a reference from their website where the same statement could be found.Chickywiki 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the issue there is that we should never have a slogan in an article-especially unquoted, that makes it look like it's in "our voice" rather than "their voice". I'll quote it for now, but usually what should be done with slogans is to create an infobox on the side, with some basic information. I think there's a specific infobox layout for churches (I'm not sure, I always manage to misformat the damn things so I don't use them much), but if not, the corporate one would probably work too-"number of employees" can just be tweaked to "congregation size", etc. There'd be a specific spot under that for a slogan/mission statement. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. As a beginner in Wiki, I'll definitely look into that soon.Chickywiki 03:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Some edits and additional information tend to lean on one side too much. It makes the article look like an expose of sorts and, I believe, is far from Wikipedia's goal to maintain encyclopedic entries. Concerned parties might want to consider other media to express this information in a proper manner. Also, please don't forget to post your reasons for major edits on this article to keep everyone on the same page.Chickywiki 04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sourcing

While the cited sources do speak of this "Marantha" group, I see no mention in either of a Victory Christian Fellowship. Reliable sources would be necessary which specifically speak to a link between the two groups, or the information cannot be included. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree to this. Should the Maranatha - Victory Christian Fellowship link be inputed again, the sources should be reputable and this portion should be explained in NPOV.Chickywiki 04:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert Wars

It looks like this page is currently in a revert war, and the people who keep reverting it to a slanted article that's not about Victory Christian Fellowship don't even bother to discuss their views on this page, nor provide credible sources for their edits. Instead they provide content not relevant to the topic (Victory Christian Fellowship, Osakadan, not Maranatha or something about To Reach and to Rule). Wikipedia is not the place to air conspiracy theories. Please stop reverting without giving your reasons. Please cite more credible sources. And please follow Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. Iskongbayan 14:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

W is a place for verifiable, NPOV articles--please keep it that way. Please also explain your points for discussion here before making changes in the entry.Varsha Daswani 00:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


Fact 1 - VCF was established under the auspices of Maranatha.

Fact 2 - Maranatha was a controversial group. And as the establisher of VCF deserves more than a psaaing comment.

Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Ever Nation. With this in mind, again, more than a passing mention is warranted.

Osakadan 04:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

We're back to the same question-can you attribute that assertion? If so, it belongs here, else it does not. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 04:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

If that line of thinking was to be followed strictly, none of the page should be here as nothing i verifiable outside of VCF's own webpage.Osakadan 04:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I am beginning to think along those lines, as I am having a very difficult time finding independent sources. I will continue to look, but if you believe no independent sources can be found, you may wish to nominate for deletion. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the "Marantha" information, as the cited sources are unreliable, and even if they were, mention no link between the "Marantha" organization and this subject. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I've requested a third opinion. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Fact 1 - Murrell is also present of the parent organization Every Nation. - You removed this.

Fact 2 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this.

The quoted sources about maranatha are not unreliable. They are links to newpaper articles.

If you are going to delete reference to Maranatha you also need to delete all reference to self-sourced material. You cannot be selective.

Many people are members of multiple organizations. Unless a reliable source claims that this means the two organizations linked, that is really not relevant. Let's go through this, source by source. I see no newspapers in the sources. Did find one, but apparently the link was malformed.
3: Claims to reference the Wall Street Journal, actually links to Blogger (and the blog linked to there is nonexistent to boot). Even if it did, Blogger is certainly not a reliable source.
4: Again, links to a nonexistent Blogger blog. I was able to find the actual article here using Goog0le, but no mention of Victory Christian Fellowship.
5: Does mention Marantha, but appears to be a partisan source (see WP:ATT for cautions), and again, does not mention VCF or a link between organizations.
6: VCF's homepage, no mention of a link between that organization and this "Marantha".
7: Does support a single sentence (the organization's size), but nothing about any link with Marantha.
8: Web forums are not reliable sources. That aside, again, no link is mentioned.
9: No indication that this video or anything in it has been fact-checked or peer-reviewed, so regardless of what it contains, it is not a reliable source.
You have to have a reliable source for information, and it has to specifically mention what you claim. It is not appropriate for us to engage in original synthesis or speculation on what a source might mean, we must go with what it actually says. Additionally, sources must be reliable. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

That an article no longer exists online does not invalidate it as a source. This is exactly the same as quoting a book that is out of publication, or not available in your local library.Osakadan 08:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

True, but regardless, Blogger doesn't count. Your new source does explicitly state the connection between the organizations though, so I withdraw my objection. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 08:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The links were actually to rickross, a repository for articles on cults. It is current offline due to server problems.

RickRoss.com is temporarily unavailable Thank you for visiting the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI), which is one of the largest databases about destructive cults, controversial groups and movements available through the Internet.

RI is a nonprofit New Jersey corporation that has been tax-exempted as a educational charity by the United States Internal Revenue Service and serves information to the general public at no charge.

RI can be contacted by calling (201) 434-9234 or by emailing ross.institute@gmail.com

Right now the site is closed for installation on new network servers with a much higher capacity to meet the needs of the more than 20,000 individual visitors that come to the site each day.Osakadan 08:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the new source (the magazine article) does explicitly state that the two organizations are connected. My main problem was that the cited sources hadn't stated that the two were connected, but the magazine does. (That magazine appears now to be gone, but Google cache is a wonderful thing. :) ) Given that we've got someone to attribute that claim to, it's certainly appropriate to include it. (Though I would question the need for extensive information about Marantha in this article-it looks like there would be sufficient source material for a separate article on Marantha, I would think it would be better done that way, and this article merged into it.) Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 08:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There is already a page for Maranatha Campus Ministries but I think a few sentence reference about VCF's founding body is VERY appropriate.

[edit] Recent revert

The association between Marantha and Victory Christian is now sourced by a source which explicitly states that VCF started out as part of Marantha. Chickywiki, what part do you consider to be POV? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for taking so long in replying to your last message on this page, Seraphimblade. After your last revert, I checked on the sources Osakadan has provided to support Maranatha’s link to Victory Christian Fellowship and also reviewed on your discussion in this page. I do agree that this article should not dismiss its links to Maranatha. After all, Victory was birthed through Maranatha but it has long cut its association with the group (This point is often overlooked in this article, focusing only on Victory’s previous link to Maranatha but not giving the fact that it’s NOT ANYMORE LINKED to Maranatha of equal importance. Those who insist that Victory is still equivalent to Maranatha should prove this point through reliable sources, else it’s just WK: OR). You are also right when you said that the links provided do not mention anything about Maranatha and Victory being related. You’ve also mentioned something about a magazine version of the said link stating in words the connection between Maranatha and Victory. Would you kindly share this information as well just to keep us in the same page? If we are to retain this link as a reputable source for this article, I believe we should provide the magazine entry with the exact terms telling about the point we want to prove i.e., the relationship of Maranatha and Victory. Otherwise, a first time reader of this article will just be provided with a smorgasbord of information that is vaguely connected to one another.
I’m relatively new to Wikipedia but I think it is but appropriate for a writer to make sure that his or her sources are reliable and clear before publishing an article. The RickRoss.com site provided by Osakadan is currently down and I understand, under construction. As of the moment, it does not serve its purpose. Why not add it to this article as soon as it is accessible to the readers? That way we can get rid of clutter in this article and provide solid information without the loose ends.
It has been aded as a cached website.
To summarize my point, my concern is to provide our readers an article that will give them a cohesive idea about this topic and not just get confused by biases of an individual or a party. I suggest that all contributors in this article would actively look for reliable and reputable sources that are acceptable to Wikipedia rules to support this article. What do you think?
I have reverted the article once again into what I believe is a NPOV version. Let me know what you think about my suggestion. Thank you.Chickywiki 01:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
This source explicitly states the connection between VCF and Marantha. While they appear no longer to be publishing, it does appear that it undergoes editorial review and fact-checking, qualifying it as reliable. (I wouldn't tend to consider the Rickross site too reliable anyway, but I don't see any evidence of partisanship for the magazine in this issue.) Of course, if the organization now claims to disavow Marantha, we should certainly include that as well. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for providing this information. I will be reviewing it shortly. This will indeed be very helpful. I also appreciate your balanced point of view in this article. Keep it up! Chickywiki 02:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You said ""After all, Victory was birthed through Maranatha but it has long cut its association with the group (This point is often overlooked in this article, focusing only on Victory’s previous link to Maranatha but not giving the fact that it’s NOT ANYMORE LINKED to Maranatha of equal importance. Those who insist that Victory is still equivalent to Maranatha should prove this point through reliable sources, else it’s just WK: OR""

Actually, Victory didn't cut their links with Maranatha. The links disappeared when Maranatha was internationally dissolved and that is stated clearly in the article. No one is stating that VCF is now equivalent to MCM. Where has that been written?

And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky.Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the fact that Steve Murrell is the president of Every Nation is not being denied. There are links to the Every Nation entry that is sufficient to point out the Victory - Every Nation connection. Place your information in the right places. I see that you are also active in editing the Every Nation entry. Whatever your motives are, it would be better to state your points clearly using reliable sources. You haven't been explaining your recent reverts. I believe Varsha Daswani has provided credible sources. Have you checked on them? Please do. Thank you. Chickywiki 18:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unnecessary Name Calling

And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky.Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How enlightened and mature of you to resort to calling fellow contributors names, Osakadan. This is totally unnecessary and inappropriate. Pink collar girl 02:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
To quote Wikipedia, this is "written collaboratively by volunteers from all around the world." Accusing someone and doubting their intentions goes against Wikipedia's guideline to assume good faith. Instead of focusing on why the change is being proposed, let's look at whether it is correct. Otherwise, it is easy to turn it into a personal edit war, even though it will not help the Wikipedia entry. Osakadan, it is best to remain civil so we can come up with a neutral, encyclopedic entry.Varsha Daswani 03:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This being said (and generally, it's unproductive to speculate on anyone's motives), I would appreciate if Varsha Daswani would provide a rationale for the revert made to the article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the entry to the last agreed upon version as I understand this. This version is neutral in point of view and does not go into much detail on Maranatha or Every Nation. The reason there are separate pages for Maranatha and Every Nation are so that the information on these organizations can be provided there. Victory Christian Fellowship exists independently of Every Nation, though it is a member of it. I also have in my possession the Articles of Incorporation of Victory Christian Fellowship dated March 15, 1991, which shows that Victory Christian Fellowship has existed apart from Maranatha since that time. This document was issued by the Securities and Exchange Commission in Manila, Philippines. Since I am new in Wikipedia, I would like to ask how I can go about making this document available as a source and whether this is allowed. Please do enlighten me. Thank you!Varsha Daswani 06:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Osakadan, please explain your revert. Thanks.Varsha Daswani 01:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not honestly sure what the copyright law would be on such a document in the Philippines. In the US, federal documents are automatically in the public domain, but I'm not familiar with Philippine law. I also see no problem with including a short segment on Maranatha/EN and linking to their articles, though of course we should include the fact that they are controversial organizations. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. I also agree that straightforward and concise explanations of VCF's connections with these other organizations will suffice. Also, these documents issued in the Philippines are public domain as well. How do you suggest I go about using this as a source?Varsha Daswani 02:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
So long as you're sure they're legal for you to copy and publicize, you could place scanned images of them on Commons, and perhaps linked to a transcript on Wikisource. However, since such a source would be primary, it would still have to be used with quite a bit of caution-a filing showing a formal disassociation would certainly not prevent informal de facto affiliation from being present, so it wouldn't "disprove", per se, a previously-established affiliation. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Member Associations

I have added the other organizations that Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of: the Philippine Missions Association and the Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches, aside from Every Nation Churches and Ministries.Varsha Daswani 09:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Facts

Fact 1 - Maranatha was the group that established VCF and as such deserves more than a one sentence description. Fact 2 - It is a fact recognized by mainstream press that Maranatha was conttroversial. It is also fact that VCF did not leave Maranatha as such but that this happened when Maranatha was dissolved.At no point did VCF disavow Maranatha teachings but stuck around until the end. Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Every Nation. But you keep deleting this. And as a parent organization, the page deserves more than a one sentence reference to Every Nation. Fact 4 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this. Or are you denying that this was said? You should be proud if you believe it.Osakadan 08:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The NPOV entry I have reverted to clearly explains the connection between Maranatha and Victory, as well as Every Nation and Victory. VCF is a member of Every Nation, but it is also a member of other ministries and works locally and internationally as part of the Church as a whole, not just with Every Nation. That is why I have included the information with reliable and verifiable third party sources. That is also why links help--they connect the VCF entry to all the other organizations it has links with, and so there is no need to go on and on about those other organizations on the VCF page. If people want to read more about Every Nation, Maranatha, the Philippine Missions Association, or the Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches, they can go there directly. And last, the change of name of Every Nation and the quotation by Jim Laffoon has no relevance to the VCF entry--there is no need to explain the change of name of Every Nation here. This page is about Victory Christian Fellowship.Varsha Daswani 02:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to declare your interest as a VCF staff member Varsha?Osakadan 08:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think taking things on a personal level will help us come up with an unbiased, encyclopedic entry for Victory Christian Fellowship. As far as I have checked on the sources provided by Varsha Daswani, they are all valid and reputable third party sources. If there is a point you would want to make, backing it up with reliable sources will be most effective. Your explanation above is taken into account, but as repeatedly stated in this discussion page, we need to place specific information strategically - where they should belong. I believe links to Every Nation and other associations mentioned in the article are sufficient to support their link to Victory.How do you view this? I would like to know your opinion on this. Thank you.Chickywiki 08:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well...while we probably don't need four or five paragraphs on it, we certainly should mention that Maranatha is a controversial organization, and perhaps provide a brief synopsis of why. Just saying "Oh, it was part of this for a bit, then that for a bit" seems a bit of a whitewash. I'll see what I can do here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claims as opposed to verifiable, non-verifiable, self published "facts".

Not to be rude but I am presuming you are a not a native speaker of English and do not understand the intricacies of the English language. While "claim" may be ladden with negative connotations in your mind, I suggest you find a good dictionary and study the true meaning. I then suggest that you the study wiki rule on self-published resources.

And are you ready to declare you interest as VCF staff yet?

Osakadan 07:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

If there's disagreement over the term, how about we attribute the statement? There is also the problem that the statement might age and not be updated (what if VCF opens ten more churches tomorrow?) How about something to the effect of "As of March 2007, the organization's website states that it operates..." This would attribute the claim, and solve the issue of aging the information, but would also address the concern that "claims" can carry with it a negative or doubting connotation (which it does). Standard formal style is to use "states" or "says" for a straight attribution, and "claims" only in cases where the claim is actually, verifiably in dispute. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I can live with the suggestion but it does mean that the page will be peppered with a lot of repetitive use of 2 words. Thank you.Osakadan 08:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that's kind of poor grammatically, that reads as though the website does the operating. How about "The organization's website states that as of 2007...are operated by Victory Christian Fellowship"? Also, some variation on attribution can be used there, while maintaining neutral terms. "According to", "X says", and so on. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good but do notice that I used a number of words besides claims. Hate repeating such things.

Additionally, I should note that I am not here to attack VCF. My desire is to state the complete truth and make materials available that were kept to themselves by VCF leaders until wikipedia and factnet came along. Though not completely convinced, I applaud them for disowning MCM beliefs. The problem is that in a relatively young organization, that material has never been readily available to new members. They deserve full disclosure.

Other concerns include:

Why do EN people keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also head of the parent organization? Very relevant

Why do they feel the need to distance themselves from their prophets own words about God giving them a new name? Are they trying to distance themselves? It is indeed relevant to anyone thinking to join VCF. Many churches believe such things. It is up to the people to decide if they agree with such things. Providing that information here gives such opportunity. Osakadan 08:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, one moment...we're not here to "make materials available" if they've not been published in a secondary source or otherwise verified. (The same does apply to using too much material from the organization itself, I do understand your concerns there.) As to the affiliations, that's a tricky one. In many cases, we don't comment on the previous affiliations of leaders of an organization, but we certainly might bring it up if a new CEO somewhere had previously been the head of accounting for Enron. However, in that case, I would certainly imagine we could find plenty of secondary sources that bring it up as well. Have any secondary sources published anything about the affiliation? Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
They are actually primary source materials referencing VCF/EN "quotes" and I believe allowed as such. Many are VCF/En materials. They choose to reference such materials for their own statements/claims. Others are artciles that I have previously referenced.Osakadan 09:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Osakadan 09:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments."[1] All sources I have included are reliable and published, not expressing my own opinions. I know what the connotations of your choice of words, Osakadan. And what is the relevance of my being a VCF member? Does that make a difference if I want to make this a verifiable, neutral [2] entry on Wikipedia? It is also inaccurate to use VCF and EN interchangeably. They are two separate organizations, as VCF is a member of EN, but operates independently under it. So as I have mentioned before, info on EN should be on the EN page, not VCF.Varsha Daswani 14:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

And further to the use of claim. Some definitions.

  • an assertion of something as a fact: He made no claims to originality.
  • a statement of something as a truth.

You seek to mislead people here Varsha. My changes are not original thought but referenced statements. And you know that. And are you attempting to be disengious? We both know that you are, or have been, more than a VCF member. Declare your interest as a staff member! And you know I have not used VCF and EN interchangeably. They may well operate independently but we both know that Murrell is head of both organizations and this is very relevant to this article.

Your claim to want to make this article npov is laughable. Your first ever posting was to remove all reference to Maranatha.Osakadan 17:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Varsha Daswani, Iskongbayan, Chickywiki, Osakadan, Pink collar girl, please stop by the EN Talk Page. Seraphimblade will be mediating the EN article and made mention of the Victory Christian Fellowhip page. Please indicate your comments or thoughts on this on the EN Talk Page. Thanks. Thelma BowlenTalk 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)