Talk:Victoria Wood As Seen On TV

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Good article Victoria Wood As Seen On TV has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Acorn antiques.jpg

Image:Acorn antiques.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 16:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use images

Beyond the above it seems there are several other images on the page that require fair use rationales.--Opark 77 10:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I've now given several fair use rationals for each image, and significantly reduced the size of some of them. - bingo99 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the thumbnail sizes for the images as 250px is much too big and by not forcing the size, users can view the thumbnails at whatever size they have selected in their preferences. I'm a bit concerned about the amount of FU images in the article (though not the rationales). Obviously as an article on a sketch series there is likely to be more discussion about sets and props than, say, a soap opera, and having the image will enhance a reader's understanding of the topic. However I would suggest removing a few more images (perhaps Image:Susieblake.jpg and Image:Kitty1986.jpg?). I have already removed Image:Victoriawoodmonologue.jpg (the purpose would be better served as a short audio extract), Image:Victoriawoodsinging.jpg (same) and Image:Victoria Wood DVD.jpg (there is little reason to show what a widely-available DVD cover looks like). Brad 15:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article assessment

I have rated this article as B class because the majority of important sections like critical response, production etc. are included and as mid importance because the awards recognition and longevity of the show distinguish it from other articles about television series. I think this needs a serious copy edit before going on to peer review - there are several sentences I could not understand.

These categories are arbritrary and are subject to review by any editor who feels confident to do so. Please note that a more formal assessment by other editors is required to achieve good article or featured article status. I used criteria from the television wikiproject guidelines here, article about TV series guidelines here and the assessment guidelines here.--Opark 77 10:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice Opark. I've significantly changed the article, following your advice. I've also removed the blog and Wikipedia sources and the info they provided and changed the citations significantly so they're in keeping with Wikipedia:Citation templates. Any chance of another look? - bingo99 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but it looks like this article needs a lot or work. Looking at Recurring sketches, this one is used to support "She was often dressed in a multi-coloured suit in the manner of her hero, Max Miller," but all it says it that she contributed towards a statue of him. Nothing about being her hero, or her outfit. The acorn antiques section says it's the best remembered, but that seems to just be an opinion of whichever editor wrote that, and is not supported by a reference. Same with "It soon became something of an institution in Britain." The later part of Acorn has better references, but I don't know if Comedy Zone is considered reliable. I don't see how this ref supports 'Famous lines spoken by Blake include "We'd like to apologise to viewers in the North. It must be awful for them."' The two sketches sections kind of continue like this. A lot of the refs are to transcripts that show that she said it, they don't show that those were the important lines of the sketch. Your best bet would probably be to condense all the sketches into a few paragraphs that use the best references. Stuff like Two Soups was "awarded this 27th best comedy sketch of all time." You could probably move the long versions of the sketches to their own page, or something. That's what I've come up glancing at the sketches section. - Peregrine Fisher 21:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Peregrine for taking the time to look over the article. I've taken what you said into consideration and made many changes. The Max Miller reference has been removed. Acorn Antiques being the best remembered item from the show and the notabilaty of the "viewers in The North" line I've now had referenced now from this article from the British Film Institute: http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/1232556/index.html

I've replaced the Comedy Zone citations with this one from Channel 4 itself http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/G/greatest/comedy_sketches/results.html

As well as other citations to back up the article. I've also reworded the "One-off sketches" section (formerly "Memorable One-off sketches") and cut back on quotations. To reduce size, the Acorn Antiques section has been shrunk, and I've moved the majority of the 'Documentaries' section to its own brand new page Victoria Wood As Seen On TV documentaries. Cheers - bingo99 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's looking better. Here are some statements that seem to be wikipedia editor opinions, and not backed by a reference. Maybe they are, but it's hard to tell because the references are at the end of the paragraphs. I don't know if they're supporting everything in the paragraph, or just the last sentence.
  • hardly reflects the ambitious and implausible storylines, which lampooned the staples of soap operas: love triangles, amnesiacs, sudden deaths and siblings reunited.
  • The show also featured many sketches, some fondly remembered,
  • A recreation of 1960's Coronation Street
  • It's a sketch written with a detailed knowlege of this soap opera's past
  • Filmed more naturalistically than the rest of the show
  • predate the more low-key style of humour of The Royle Family and People Like Us by over a decade.
  • Wood singing bittersweet songs accompanying
  • The best remembered tune from the show
etc. Basically all the stuff that sounds like opinion.
Also, I don't know what kind of blog "Corrie Blog" is, but blogs are usuall not considered reliable. Good luck. - Peregrine Fisher 04:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


Thanks again for the response. Okay, some changes, some citations.

  • hardly reflects the ambitious and implausible storylines, which lampooned the staples of soap operas: love triangles, amnesiacs, sudden deaths and siblings reunited.

Okay, cut that

  • The show also featured many sketches, some fondly remembered,

Okay, cut "some fondly remembered"

  • A recreation of 1960's Coronation Street
  • It's a sketch written with a detailed knowlege of this soap opera's past

The citation is from Neil Brandwood biography that discusses the sketches accuracy, as well as the praise it got for this from ex-Coronation Street star Doris Speed. The detailed knowledge should be obvious though from all the names of ex-characters (with links to their Wikipedia pages) in the quote.

  • Filmed more naturalistically than the rest of the show
  • predate the more low-key style of humour of The Royle Family and People Like Us by over a decade.

Okay, cut those

  • Wood singing bittersweet songs accompanying

Changed bittersweet to "self-penned". (that she writes everything in the show is cited elsewhere)

  • The best remembered tune from the show

Here's a quote to back that up

"Victoria debuted her tomboyish pudding basin haircut and what has become her most popular song,, the mammoth, fifteen versed 'Barry and Freda, better known as 'Let's Do It'." Victoria Wood - The Biography, Neil Brandwood

etc. Basically all the stuff that sounds like opinion.
Also, I don't know what kind of blog "Corrie Blog" is, but blogs are usuall not considered reliable.

Okay, its gone.

Cheers again - bingo99 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey bingo. I've given the article another look. I've removed some links from the headers as per WP:MOS. I think the main thing that needs improving now is the high number of stub sections. There are many sections of the article that have a header but are only 2 or 3 sentences long - you need to either lose the headers and discuss each aspect in prose (which would improve the flow of the article) or expand these sections.--Opark 77 08:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've now removed a lot of the stub sections and put them all into one section. The article has also been cleaned up a lot by LBM and myself today. - bingo99 15 September 2007 (UTC)

As Opark 77 says, converting the bulleted lists into paragraphs (prose) would really help this article. Basically
  • Continuity announcer - Susie Blake starred as a snobbish and arrogant television continuity announcer,
Should be converted to something like this, without the bullets
  • In "Continuity Announcer," Susie Blake starred as a snobbish and arrogant television continuity announcer,
The article is definitley getting better. - Peregrine Fisher 02:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've changed the description of the sketches so it's now in a prose style - bingo99 04:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Regular cast members section should probably be turned into prose as well, juding by the articles in Category:FA-Class television articles. - Peregrine Fisher 04:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've now turned the cast section into prose - bingo99 17:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I have taken on Victoria Wood As Seen On TV for review under the Good Article criteria, as nominated on the Good article candidates page by Bingo99. You'll be pleased to hear that the article meets none of the quick-fail criteria, so I will shortly be conducting an in-depth review and will post the results below.

Where an article is not an outright pass, but requires relatively minor additional work to be brought up to GA standard, I will normally place it on hold - meaning that editors have around a week to address any issues raised. As a precaution to prevent failure by default should this occur, if editors are likely to be unavailable over the next ten days or so, feel free to leave a message on my talk page so we can arrange a more convenient time for review. Regards, EyeSereneTALK 18:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

I have now reviewed this article under the six Good article criteria, and have commented in detail on each criterion below:

1 Well written FAIL

1.1 Prose

The prose is generally good, flows logically and is pleasant to read. There are one or two 'see below' comments that could perhaps be removed, but no real concerns here ;)

1.2 Manual of Style

Only a couple of minor issues with this:

  • The lead needs to comply with WP:LEAD; it should not be an introduction to, but a summary of, the article (able to stand as a mini-article in its own right). Ideally this means a brief mention in the lead of all the main points covered in the article body.
  • The 'External links' section should come after the 'References'

2 Factual accuracy PASS

The article is well-referenced, and there are no significant omissions in the citations. The sourced used are compliant with WP:RS.

3 Coverage PASS

Coverage is comprehensive and remains focused throughout.

4 Neutrality PASS

The article contains no evidence of POV or bias.

5 Stability PASS

The article history shown no signs of recent major changes and edit-warring.

6 Images PASS

All images used are appropriately captioned and bear a suitable license.

As a result of the above concerns I have placed the article on hold. This gives editors up to a week to address the issues raised (although in some circumstances the hold period can be briefly extended). To help with tracking, editors may like to strike through each comment as it is dealt with, or use the template {{done}} after each comment.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or are ready for a re-review. In any case I'll check back here in seven days (around 2nd October). All the best, EyeSereneTALK 20:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA pass

Congratulations on an excellent, albeit minor, copyedit on the suggestions provided; you had already got the article to such a high standard that there was very little left to do ;) I have now passed it as a Good Article, and listed it as such on the Good Articles page under Social sciences and society > Media > Television and Radio shows and series. For the record, Bingo99 (92), LBM (11), Carre (5) and Opark 77 (5) contributed significantly to the article (only editors with five or more major edits are credited).

Well done! EyeSereneTALK 14:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou EyeSerene for the congratulations and the time you put in you assessment, much appreciated - bingo99 03:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Well done to all the editors who worked on this article. I'm surprised I count as a contributor as all I did was meet Bingo's requests for input.--Opark 77 14:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh - all I did was fix a few problems I spotted when I came to do the review in the first place (and fixed a pesky cite template bug). Carre 14:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the congratulations - bingo99 03:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, well done all! My reasoning behind the unusually wide GA award box distribution (unusual for me - the most I've ever awarded on a single article before was two) was that the article had been brought to a very high standard before review. Admittedly, Bingo did most of the work, but there has been a commendable collaborative effort here that left me almost nothing to complain about. The article would not be in its current GA form without the contributions you all made, and it would be unfair of me not to recognise that. Bingo gets the smarties though ;) EyeSereneTALK 12:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

A request has been made for this article to be copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. The progress of its reviewers is recorded below. The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping.
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[edit] Getting this to Featured Article status

Now the article has been awarded Good Article status, I was looking for any suggestions to get it to the next level, Featured Article status. Any suggestions on how this could be achieved, hints, suggestions, changes, would be most appreciated - - bingo99 03:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The first thing I'd do is stick the Background section at the top, after the lead - it looks strange being there in the middle of the prose! I'd also check out the Radio Times Guide To TV Comedy in the lead; can't seem to see that mentioned anywhere in the main article. Carre 08:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. I've now Removed Radio Times quote from header, moved up Background to start of article. Anything else anyone can see? I don't want to rashly nominate this if there's still problems needing fixed or upgrades to do. - bingo99 17:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Um - I think the Radio Times thing is still worth mentioning, it's just you can't stick it in the lead without it being in the main body: can you do something like "critical reception and reviews" as a main header, shove the BAFTAs bit as a subsection of that, and the Radio Times Guide bit in another subsection, along with any other critiques you can find?
The article length may become an issue too - any way to split some bits off to sub-articles, and summarize them in this? I think that would be very hard, since it already seems to be summary style, but you are asking for suggestions! Carre 16:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Oooh, I had another thought... sheesh, I'm being helpful today! This article comes under the auspices of several wikiprojects; how about going for a project peer review, fixing what they come up with, then go for the project A-Class. After that, sling it at WP:LoCE, and finally to FAC. That's what I'm doing with my current on-going project, and it seems to be working. Carre 18:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've reinserted the Radio Times quote in another section of the article. I've also made the requests for peer review you suggested, cheers. - bingo99 15:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

How do you nominate for A-Class? - bingo99 20:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

A-class reviews are often done in-project by an assessment team. I'd look through the WikiProjects above and nominate on the appropriate page (for example, WikiProject Television's assessment request page is here, although as with all review processes it looks pretty backlogged). Regards, EyeSereneTALK 17:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I've re-read the article today and reassessed it as A-class for WP:TV. It comprehensive, well structured and well written. In its current state I'd be more than happy to support it at FAC so please let us know at WP:TV when it is nominated. I'm working through the WP:TV assessment backlog slowly but surely. Its an uphill struggle but we're only about 1 month behind with the requests at the moment.--Opark 77 13:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there any way to make all the Wikiprojects A-class in line with Wikiproject Television? - bingo99 04:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)