Talk:Vice President of the Philippines

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On Tolentino, I know that this could be controversial, but historically, he still was a VP of the country, though just for a moment. Even though there was the EDSA Revolution that deposed the old regime, he was still proclaimed VP of that old existing order (regardless of the truth of the electoral allegations).

Tolentino served as VP before the revolution, and that historically should be recognized, since Salvador Laurel himself became VP during that Fourth Republic himself after the same revolution, and not only the Fifth Republic. The Fifth only came into effect after the new constitution, in 1987 and Laurel got the VP position earlier, in 1986, after EDSA. Hence, Tolentino was a VP, and just because he was not recognized by the new regime should not mean that his name should be removed from the list. Hope that I clarified that. I don't want to be unfair to that old order kasi. :-) --Noypi380 16:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and indeed, it's an interesting question. The Batasan Pambansa proclaimed both Marcos and Tolentino, and Marcos and Tolentino did take their oaths, in private, although Marcos took his in public (for the 2nd time) before leaving; then Tolentino proclaimed himself afterwards... The thing is, on the day Marcos took his oath, Aquino took hers, too, and while using a modified version of the presidential oath, she ended up appointing Laurel, her Vice-President, as Prime Minister, even though it was for a very brief period, since the government became officially, a revolutionary one. I don't think it's unfair to Tolentino not to consider him a Vice-President, because by staying in office, the claims of Aquino and Laurel are the ones that endured, furthermore, once the 1987 Constitution was ratified, Tolentino accepted it, and even served as senator. Most of all, when he died and his family asked for, and was given, permission to be buried in the Libingan ng mga Bayani, it was for all his achievements except Vice-President, which was never mentioned in the official honors gven by the Philippine state. Perhaps to be fair, we could say, Tolentino was proclaimed Vice-President in 1986 but never got to serve. Gareon

Okay, :-) --Noypi380 00:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Please note the Office of the Vice-President website is wrong, Trias is not the first VP, unless Aguinaldo's official presidency is dated to Tejeros, which it is not. Tejeros was one of the protogovernments prior to the first recognized (by Filipinos) national government, the Malolos Republic. I strongly suggest this be clarified. Gareon 08:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Done, I corrected that part, Mariano Trias was never a Vice President of the Philippines. --Noypi380 15:05, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

1 Mariano Trias
2 Consensus
- 2.1 Sources
3 Peer review

[edit] Mariano Trias

First he needs an article. Second, he seems to have been recognized as a Vice President by today's government. So even if technically he didn't become a VP, but he is recognized by the government (as evidenced by the OVP website), then does he automatically become one? --Howard the Duck 09:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I feel so because he has done the capacity of one. ¡Viva Cavite! --Justox dizaola 09:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, an article would be good, but unsure if he really is a VP of the PH. Let's wait for Gareon, although I expect him to disagree that he is a VP of the PH, and so do I. :) --Noypi380 15:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason I asked the question was because I'll panning on nominating List of Vice Presidents of the Philippines as a WP:FL, and with the reference there posted is at OVP site, and Mariano Trias is listed as a VP. The question here is where we could get a citation that Trias isn't a VP, not just our interpretation of historical events. --Howard the Duck 01:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, here I am, to disagree. It isn't about the contributions of Trias, but rather a more basic question: which do we recognize as the first formal Philippine government? The consensus seems to be, the Malolos Republic. Therefore, everything that came before, was a preparatory government, but not a government per se, though it may have fulfilled the functions of a government. If Malolos was the first Republic, and thus, government, then Trias could not be the first VP. He served in that capacity prior to Malolos: because if you accept all the previous governments as formal governments, we'd have to renumber our republics, beginning with the Biak-na-Bato Republic; and then you would have to consider the claim that Bonifacio was our first head of state, reordering the list of our presidents. Ditto for government ministers/secretaries: if you based it on Malolos, your first cabinet's clear; if not, how far back do you go? The Katipunan? Tejeros? The confusion in the VP website is caused by simply lumping together everyone who bore a similar title, ignoring the official chronology. Even government historians can be sloppy and make mistakes.Gareon 03:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

But can it be said that the present government accepts Trias as the first VP? Also, what we need here is a citation (website, book, etc.) that Trias isn't accepted as the first VP by historians. --Howard the Duck 04:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Haha, can we say Gareon is the book? :) Answering the question, that won't be necessary, the 1935 constitution, which has the first ever VP provision in the history of the state, is more than enough. :) --Noypi380 04:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

But how can we explain the Trias isn't a VP when he appears on the roster provided by OVP.gov? --Howard the Duck 05:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Since wikipedia is NOPV, it might be fair to restore the previous para. we had: that, i think, helped explain the issue. the thing is, since the vp was made so irrelevant during martial law, no real resources have been devoted to studying the position. and until someone files an inquiry with the nhi, it's all he said, she said. Gareon 08:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a NPOV issue but a verifiability issue. We don't need to disprove that he's VP, because he's pre-1935. It is up to the historians to prove that he's VP, none that I know have done so, although yes checking nhi would be best. The site of the Office of the VP does not also prove Trias was a VP, rather, it proves that the web site has dubious reliability. Until a better source is found, we should not mention Trias in the list, because if we do, we would just confuse the reader more. The list already is the most accurate possible in my opinion, hope to see it as a featured list soon. :) --Noypi380 15:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the OVP website's history of the vice-presidency, the first name mentioned with regards to Vice-President is the name of Mariano Trias. Probably they have something that can prove he's the first Vice-President? --Sky Harbor 12:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

That's the problem, we'd have to disprove by citing somebody credible (like a book or some historian) that Trias wasn't a VP, and it should be mentioned in this and on the list article. otherwise, the list article wouldn't pass FL. --Howard the Duck 12:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

i don't know if a newspaper column would suffice: http://www.inq7.net/opi/2004/jul/08/opi_mlquezoncol-1.htm Gareon 13:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

That's great, now to convince everybody, we'd need another one. --Howard the Duck 13:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Wait... it says there Arturo Tolentino isn't counted too. --Howard the Duck 13:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Now I'm confused..hahaha...but quoting from the article, The second mistaken inclusion is that of the name of Arturo Tolentino. Tolentino cannot be counted as veep because the country rejected the official Fourth Republic proclamation of Marcos-Tolentino as the winners of the 1986 snap elections. Dubious reliability again. If that is the case, it's like saying that Jose Laurel was not a Prez, coz the commonwealth did not recognize it. Or the Spanish never came and colonized, when for a moment, it was not recognized by the Portuguese in the 1500s due to conflicting claims. We need more sources, more sources. :) --Noypi380 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Note. Notice this source saying that Trias was 1899, not 1897, is in fact, wrong. Be wary of unreliable sources. :) --Noypi380 15:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

the phil. daily inquirer's opinion section is classified as a source of dubious reliability?Gareon 15:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, :0 I didn't see that... :) thought it was an English tab (MQ3 wrote it too) hehe. :) --Noypi380 02:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

it's not that, i was genuinely curious if newspaper articles don't count :) Gareon 05:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Opinion articles are ok too. --Noypi380 11:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

On second thought, we might not find any sources other than the official site. If that is the case, let's just start making consensus. Who agrees to use the OVP site (again, coz its the official source) as the basis of the article and list? This would mean that Trias would be mentioned as well (to NPOV it we have to say that he was not a veep at independence, etc) But IMHO, an excellent source other than the official site would be best. :) --Noypi380 15:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

i think the portion pointing out trias being the first filipino to have the title of vp, but pointing out this was before the establishment of formal government (1st republic) would settle it. do not in the case of laurel, he was not recognized as president until macapagal, five administrations after the war. the particular circumstances of 1986 led to a pretty incontrivrtible refusal by the public, the ulimate judge in such things, that the marcos-tolentino proclamations were void. so again, the best that could be said is that while tolentino was sworn in secretly, and then attempted to take his oath as acting president, both were never recognized by the public. it belongs in a grey area as one regine was abolished and replaced with the present republic. i mentioned elsewhere we should look at how france handled a similar situation with the vichy puppet regime and the free french government in exile under de gaulle. The simplest is: afree first, which is the first government? Malolos? Or earlier? If it's Malolos, then Trias wasn't the first VP. If it's earlier, is it the Biak-na-Bato Republic? That would make Malolos the 2nd Republic; was it Tejeros Convention? Then Trias is first VP, Biak na Bato becomes 2nd Republic, Malolos the 3rd Republic, Laurel's the 4th Republic, 1946 the 5th Republic, then after the Bew Society we had the 6th Rep. and are now in our 7th.Gareon 15:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that clears it up for Trias and Tolentino, is that ok with the rest? Howard, what do you think? Can it be a featured list already? --Noypi380 02:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

How about saying that the present regime recognizes Trias as VP, when he was elected at the Tejeros convention. Then, we'll cite the OVP website, then that'll clear matters. Other things (like Aguinaldo's term) won't have to be added because it is immaterial. Then we can say Trias was recognized (but did not serve) as the first VP and Tolentino was elected (after all he, was proclaimed the winner, whether you like it or not), but also did not serve. the OVP websote is clear about this, and we can't find other sources having a definitive list. And I bet the FL reviewers may not know about this. What we need is a carefully-constructed explanation.--Howard the Duck 09:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

With all of the conflicing sources, we have to sort them all out. And since each book/website has its own roster of VPs, then we should include anyone that is included in any roster. --Howard the Duck 16:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be difficult and I heartily agree consensus will help. But I also believe all the articles have to have an internal kind of consistency. So setting aside Trias's place in history, there has to be a broader consensus to settle the jarring details arising from the OVP website.

First, what is the roster of governments? the government determines the position. the recognized government determines the positions to be recognized as part of a continuum. if we use anyone included in any roster, your list of governments changes, with the Katipunan being the first government. So:

Revolutionary government under the Katipunan 1896-1897 then Government from the Tejeros Convention 1897 then Biak-na-Bato Republic and then Malolos Repubic: so in your roster of heads of state you have Supremo (and Hari ng Katagalugan?) and then the presidency of Aguinaldo at Tejeros, then again at Biak-na-Bato then again after the return of the Hong Kong Junta and then Malolos. And which Republic would that make Malolos? If it calls itself a republic, then it is a republic, so by that logic Malolos was not the first, it was the second or third, which makes the Laurel Republic the third or fourth, and after 1946 the fifth or sixth, and our present post-1987 republic the ninth or tenth... And you would have to reconsider the term of Aguinaldo -was it 1899? 1898? 1897?

If however one accepts the Malolos Republic as the first, then all that came before was a permutation of the revolutionary movement, and its leadership and titles more related to the revolutionaries' arrangements and not the government whose continuity we are tracking. Which means Trias was VP of a protogovernment and the first Filipino to bear that title -but not the first holder of a position of state, since we date all positions of state to 1899 (we are actually being held hostage by a lack of rigor by the official historians, which you can see in the so-called foundation dates of some government departments).

I think the distinctions made previously -Trias as first to bear the title but not the first actual VP of a Philippine government- was fine, helpful, and fairly reflects the complicated nature of the official history being dealt with. Just as by any measure, the 2nd Republic was legally de facto, but the Commonweath government was de jure: therte is precedent aplenty in international law and history for that.

Gareon 07:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

First, I think Trias derserves to be mentioned here and on the list article. Second, we have to explain that Trias (and even Tolentino) is recognized by the current regime but there is actually some dispute whether Trias/they truly belong there. --Howard the Duck 08:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

On the side, in the list there is an error. Guingona was not "appointed by Arroyo". Guingona was nominated by the president, it is Congress that appoints the VP based on the nomination. About the current roster, its perfect already, do we still have to explain more? (trias) No matter who is the source, the NPOV fact is that the VP post only began in 1935, period. So finished, nominate this for featured list already. :) --Noypi380 15:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it Guingona was nominated by the President, then it was confirmed by Congress? Either way, the footnote has to be edited.

But the fact is, Trias was included in the roster in the OVP website, the Official website of the Office of the Vice President. Why is he there, and why is he omitted on our list? We need a citation that says Trias wasn't a VP, and it has to be authoritative, so that the FLC people would pass it. Otherwise, they'll question why Trias is omitted. --Howard the Duck 15:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually "nomination" means that the guy is made eligible, and "appointment" means that the choice is made. It is not "confirmed", which is like saying that there are two entities that appoint, which is false. The appointing power is vested only in Congress, which has the right to reject the nomination. The nominating power and appointing power are separate because it is to serve as a check and balance. About trias, I'll look for a source. :) --Noypi380 15:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Alito could help us (lol), since the processes are basically the same. It is said there that "He was nominated as an Associate Justice by President George W. Bush on October 31, 2005 and confirmed by the United States Senate..." --Howard the Duck 15:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay :) --Noypi380 23:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)