Talk:Vestigiality

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Vestigiality was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: May 26, 2007
Please note that vestigial structures need not be useless. Vestigial structures are anatomical structures .. which are considered to have lost much or all of their original function through evolution.
Peer review Vestigiality has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
Charles Darwin This article is part of WikiProject Evolutionary biology, an attempt at building a useful set of articles on evolutionary biology and its associated subfields such as population genetics, quantitative genetics, molecular evolution, phylogenetics, evolutionary developmental biology. It is distinct from the WikiProject Tree of Life in that it attempts to cover patterns, process and theory rather than systematics and taxonomy. If you would like to participate, there are some suggestions on this page (see also Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information) or visit WikiProject Evolutionary biology.
B rated as B-Class on the assessment scale
High rated as high-importance on the assessment scale
To-do list for Vestigiality: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Focus more on vestigiality as a whole rather than structures only - behavioral and physiological characters that are vestigial need to be given proper attention.
  • Go into more detail in examples given (fewer, more detailed examples are better than a large list of brief example)
  • Add more non-human vestigial structures to its section. Non-animal examples (plants and (microbes?)) are needed.
  • Review the concept of "junk DNA" which was thought to have no purpose. Recent research has indicated that "junk DNA" may be used to encode important information!
  • Discuss the concept of vestigial organs from a creationist point of view.

/Archive 01 - 18:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

/Archive 02 - 18:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] GA proceedings

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Vestigiality has failed, for the following reason(s):

Good content, but the bullet-pointed list of examples should be converted to normal prose. Worldtraveller 10:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to say that i think the list format was far superior to the prose. To call it a list is probably incorrect, rather subtitled paragraphs. In the 'list' format the content is clear as the eye scans the page. This is not the case for the prose. My gut instinct would be to keep the bullets despite the failure at the good article nomination page. David D. (Talk) 02:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with you in this case which is why I brought it over to Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes where I was told that having it in lists was actually acceptable. I actually left a message on Silence's page to see what he thought before I went ahead and reverted it.--SomeStranger(t|c) 09:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I can see two reasons to remove the bulleted list for the "human vestiges" section. (1) Each entry in the bulleted list is a full paragraph long, making it already "prose-ish" in girth. (2) There are only four entries on the list, now that the vestigial reflexes and so on have been delistified. I could see an argument for a list if there were, say, 10 items on the list, or if each entry on the list was only a line or two long, but the current format doesn't really seem like an effective or standard use of listing. How about we enlarge the "non-human" vestiges listing (I'd say we should have 15 at the minimum), and use a list for that, once it's long enough? -Silence 20:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Okay, I see your point, let's go ahead and revert it to the version you created where they were in pure prose. I will set to work on the non-human structures again later. That one source I found has a list of about 50. :)--SomeStranger(t) 21:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

I see no problem with the bullet list; this is GA, not FAC. Great content, fully cited, licensed photos... we have a winner. Kafziel 16:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted 26 May 2007

I've delisted the article for the following reasons:

  • It isn't stable - there are several items on the to do list, and it has recently been moved to a new location. The article most importantly needs to reflect this change by focusing less on the 'structure' on more on the concept - vestigiality can be seen in behavior, metabolic pathways, organs etc. Underlying this are genes that are no longer so useful for their hosts. Whether the new name is where the article shall permanently reside also needs to be discussed.
  • More citations are needed, in particular the human appendix example.
  • It could still be better written. The examples section needs to go into more depth on some specific examples, not just list a bunch with one line sentences. A few detailed examples including structures, behaviors and cellular and biochemical vestigiality are needed.
  • See the to-do list for other details. Richard001 05:18, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] wrong information

the whales pelvis are really bones which have anchor points to muscles that whales use during sex and giving birth they need them becasue they are large animals the human appendix has a funtion and is part of your immune system and humans need thier tail bone for walking with more ease and has nerves going out of it

Please read the article. It records exactly what this article is about, with appropriate references. This is not the place to discuss things in general, only the improvement of the article. The article records the published views of people. Please go to somewhere else, such as talk.origins, if you wish to discuss these topics. Skittle 10:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
What he said was a fact, and this vestigial whale non-sense is a lie. Is he being sent away for critiquing and trying to improve the article, or because he is exposing a lie in evolution? Most if not all of this article should be removed, and as per the articles I linked to have been proven false many years ago. Why is this considered a good article?
A whale of a tale?
Your appendix ... it’s there for a reason
Embryonic development (tail bone)
--64.22.206.248 01:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If you had read the article, as I suggested the editor do, you would see that what he said is completely irrelevant to what this article is about. In particular, pay attention to the meaning of the word 'vestigial' in this article. Those AiG links really are laughable, and do not prove anything. Nor do they provide reputable sources that could be investigated. The other poster was not 'sent away', I said "if you wish to discuss these topics" and provided an appropriate place for such discussions. This is not the place to tell us evolution is a lie perpetrated by evil atheists worshipping Darwin, as AiG tries to :-) Skittle 02:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Then tell me why several living whales with developed hind limbs (including femora, tibiae and fibulae, and in some cases with digits) have been discovered ([1]). Even Carl Wieland, the CEO of Answers in Genesis, has admitted that this is a serious challenge to young earth creation models. Thefamouseccles 00:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed paragraph

"(It should be noted that his comment on nature not making rapid jumps is now considered out of date according Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium. However the majority of his argument still stands in modern evolutionary theory)"

I removed this for several reasons. Firstly, we've taken great care to cite as much as we can in this article, and this isn't fully cited, although that can easily be fixed. More importantly, it drops what I gather is still a disputed theory in as established, and I'm not sure it really belongs in this section. I'm not trying to get rid of the information, but I'm not sure it belongs here. Skittle 11:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

"Natura non facit saltus", as it is sometimes known, is well worth an article of its own; it was raised as an objection against quantum mechanics, for example. The German and Italian articles, by the looks of it, have a short article each on it, so I'd suggest just redlinking the relevant phrase.
I recently read a column on evolution in the economist which, while fairly unscientific, did portray this as an ongoing debate; I think it's been settled in physics, though.
RandomP 13:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
What if 'nature does not make rapid jumps' was piped to 'Natura non facit saltus'. If yuo know enough about this to make a stub, I'd be grateful, otherwise I'll look for somewhere else to send it. Skittle 13:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I know enough about altavista to translate the German Wikipedia article, I suppose. No references that I can see, though.
Help would, of course, be appreciated.
RandomP 14:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vestigal Structure

The clitoris in females and the nipples of males are NOT vestigial, for male nipples never had the function of nursing young, and the clitoris never had the function of a penis. Instead, these are anatomical traits that are formed in an embyro before sexual differentiation occurs. The paragraphs refering to these as vestigial should be removed!!!

The information on this page is very inaccurate. I have taught anatomy at the college level including at the graduate level for over 20 years and not one text book that we have used, or I have reviewed, agree with the section on human anatomy in this article. I have tried to correct this article but my corrections were removed. I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers. It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view.

"I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers" Good! They should be using this site as a starting point to direct them to other sources, which they should use as references. Your last comment makes it rather clear to me why your edits were removed... Skittle 21:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view." -- With your position as a lecturer, I would haved assumed you would not come here to make sweeping generalization of "Darwinists". I guess I was wrong. Please come here to help correct mistakes, that's what a wiki is for, however I'm pretty sure we can do without these sort of attacks, although I understand you were "offended" by the mistakes being done here. Actually, I think a section here for "commonly mistaken or disputed organs" would be in place, because it's not only on Wikipedia I have encountered this claim. So you shouldn't just teach your students to steer clear of Wikipedia, but to always use multiple sources for verification. This applies to just about any scientific article. -- Northgrove 08:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Since I also teach A&P, I thought I would weigh in on this. It does not matter what one believes about human vestigial organs, but what the empirical research says. If students started their research with this web article on vestigial organs, and they did their homework, they would find that most everything in the section about humans is wrong. Then they would conclude that Wikipedia is a worthless resource. I should note that one study found that Wikipedia was more accurate then the Encyclopedia Britannica. In this case they are correct. The 2003 edition, volume 14 page 1082 claims that humans have “more than 100” vestigial organs which it defines as “organs that are useless, degenerate”! I would love to see a list of 100 vestigial organs. I checked my college A&P textbooks, and not one of the 15 I looked at listed a single structure as vestigial. All gave the proper use for each organ and structure that this article listed as vestigial. Evolutionists may claim that some are vestigial in humans, but I know of no anatomist that does. The scientific research is very clear on this topic. Do research on each of these claims and you will be surprised.

I believe you are confusing anatomical and evolutionary definitions of vestigial. From a biological point of view, a structure is vestigial if it has lost its original function; of course, it may have gained another (indeed, we would expect truly useless organs as you suggest to be lost to natural selection). To the earlier poster, I agree with Skittle: I am not certain why you would ever allow term papers to cite Wikipedia as a source; in general, encyclopedias are inappropriate references for such works, I believe. — Knowledge Seeker দ 22:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy Disputed / NPOV

I am placing {{NPOV}} and {{disputed}} on this article. As per comments above, in the very least, the factual accuracy of vestigial structures is in question. The examples given, supposedly have been proven wrong years ago, and that needs to be investigated! Taking the possible errors into account, this article seems to assume they are fact. The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking. There needs to be a better balance, and the article shouldn't assume one position. --64.22.206.248 01:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Let us please not turn this into another evolution vs creationist/intelligent design debate. All science is based on current evidence and is not written in stone, subject to change at any time. This article is not trying to impose some dogmatic world view, it is simply explaining what the current evidence suggests is true. If you are coming from the creationist school of thinking, you should most likely discount the entire idea of useless organs, as explained in the criticism section of this very article, making this a non-issue. 76.185.184.143 04:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking." Do you know any reputable, scientific sources that are not? If the examples given were "proven wrong years ago", please show us the sources for this so we can improve the article. Also, please be sure that you are using the same meaning of 'vestigial' that is used in this article, and by biologists. Skittle 17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well you guys are obviously biased, because as implication goes from your comments, you are not going to accept any creationist sources as "reputable". But you could probably say the same of me, so we're even. I did give you the wrong source for the whale issue. Here's the right one [2] (scroll down to Vestigial legs?). Here's a quote...
...However, these so-called ‘remnants’ are not useless at all, but help strengthen the reproductive organs—the bones are different in males and females...
No, the article doesn't impose anything except for what the authors put there. I'd argue that current evidence shows that this article is incorrect. There's nothing wrong with that. Does it prove evolution is wrong? No, it just shows that these particular examples of vestigial organs do not hold up to scientific scrutiny, and therefore are not valid.
What am I advocating for this article? In the very least it needs additional information explaining the other views of these examples of "vestgial structure". And we need to take out statements that assume it's fact, and say that "this source thinks it's a fact". Is that too much to ask? It's not balanced as it is with most of the article being pro-vestigial, while only mentioning a criticism and not giving more detail on it. --64.22.206.248 02:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Really, read the article. "these so-called ‘remnants’ are not useless at all" has nothing to do with the article, because as explained at length in the article, vestigial does not mean 'useless'. Also read the controversy section explaining that this has always been the case. With sources. Thank you. Skittle 14:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
i really don't think wikipedia could handle having to put "this source thinks it's a fact" on every disputed page...the fact that there are citations implies that it is the "belief" of a certain source anyway.Scholarus 21:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some more references would be nice

As just one example, the article says, "The vermiform appendix is a vestige of the cecum."

Could we get proof for that, please? That it is homologous in shape, attachment, or position to the cecum has little bearing on whether it is related by DNA to the cecum. Until and unless someone can demonstrate that the DNA which codes for the cecum is related by X degree or in Y way to the DNA which codes for the appendix, statements like this are just wild speculation. That is, let's see some evidence that the DNA for the different organs is homologous and not just the structure.

Here's a reference to consider:

"... homologous structures need not be controlled by identical genes, and homology of phenotypes does not imply similarity of genotypes." - Gavin deBeer, formerly Professor of Embryology at the University of London and Director of the British Museum (Natural History), Homology, An Unsolved Problem (London: Oxford University Press, 1971), p. 16

Evidence, please, evidence.

Erik Eckhardt 03:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Darwin's view

I've added this small paragraph to the history section:

Darwin however still often refers to the use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity, which mixes a form of Lamarckism with the theory of natural selection. In the final chapter of The Origin of Species he describes the process: "This has been effected chiefly through the natural selection of numerous successive, slight, favourable variations; aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts".

Does this represent Darwin's view reasonably well? I'm not sure exactly what views he held regarding the inheritance of aquired traits, but he seems to believe to some extent in the conditions of an organisms life affecting its reproduction somehow, and in the quote above seems to imply that use and disuse of a structure will be inherited by the offspring. I'm not 100% sure on this interpretation, please feel free to remove it if you feel it isn't accurate. Richard001 08:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding Darwin's views here. Darwin never espoused any form of Lamarckism; his theory of natural selection, indeed, was in direct opposition to Lamarckism. Darwin certainly did believe that "the use and disuse of structure have some role in heredity", but this is not, in itself, Lamarckian. In Lamarckism, the use and disuse has a significant role on an individual level: if a specific organism doesn't use a limb, then that organism will pass this trait on to its descendent. In Darwinism, on the other hand, if a population doesn't use a limb for many generations, then the population's descendents are more likely to develop degenerate or re-adapted versions of that limb, and/or to develop more strong in their other limbs to account for this. In the former case, this change is the result of actually directly inheriting the change in an organism's characteristics over its lifetime; in the latter case, this change is the result of natural selection acting to promote the propagation of traits which are conducive to a population's fitness, in this case being traits that, in one way or another, "make up" for the costly disused limb. The effects of these two postulated processes might be similar in some cases, which seems to be where your confusion arises (as you mistakenly say that the "use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity" is itself Lamarckian), but the actual way this change occurs is what tells the two apart. The conditions of an argument's life do affect its reproduction: if they didn't, then evolution by natural selection would be just as impossible as Lamarckian evolution! Although Darwin's view on the hereditary mechanism, pangenesis, was eventually falsified, that view has little in common with Lamarckism: his hypothesis was that discrete units of heredity (cf. genes) called gemmules were shed by cells in the body to gather in the reproductive organs. -Silence 11:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
So what you're saying is Darwin didn't propose any inheritance of acquired characters at all? It was my understanding that this was what he meant when he kept referring to use and disuse. As I understand you are simply suggesting by use and disuse he meant that organisms who didn't use their characters effectively would simply disappear over very long periods of time due to the energy expenditure of maintaining them (and perhaps other factors such as cancer developing in an organ for example) lowering their reproductive success. He does mention this side of it, but only in passing.
Surely the quote above (bolded) shows he believes this - it's added as a separate factor besides natural selection, and specifically says the effects of use and disuse are inherited. I don't know, perhaps I misinterpreted it, though he certainly seemed to portray a semi-Lamarckian system of inheritance to me. Richard001 10:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Coming back to this after reading the introduction of Descent of Man and skimming through Origin again, I found this quote: On these same principles, and bearing in mind that when organs are reduced in size, either from disuse or through natural selection. Surely what you're suggesting would conflict with the or in that sentence. Richard001 06:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an authority on Darwin, so you should be having this discussion with someone else if what you want is an in-depth, extensive dissection of assorted passages from his many works. All I know is that nothing I've ever read either by or about him has in any way suggested that he endorsed any form of Lamarckian inheritance, at all. If you believe otherwise, it's on your head to support this, and you will need infinitely better support than just an ambiguous use of the term "disuse" in order to provide such support. (You will also need to avoid any original research.) The quote you provide is insufficient simply for the reason that your interpretation is only one of many possible interpretations. I haven't read the passage in question, but, for example, he could have been using "natural selection" in the narrow sense of positive selection; more plausibly, perhaps he was not referring to inherited reduction in size when he mentioned "disuse", but rather was referring to the fact that an organ may reduce in size and functionality during a single individual's lifetime if it is not used. Thus Darwin was perhaps discussing both individual organ degeneration (through "disuse") and evolutionary organ degeneration (through "natural selection"). Again, this is just speculation, as I don't really have time to go into a long discussion on the matter; but I think it's pretty uncontroversial among Darwin scholars that Darwin was not Lamarckist (to the point where it seems ridiculous for you to be asking me to defend that view), so you should provide some documented secondary sources affirming your personal interpretation before, I think, we can take it seriously. -Silence 08:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
It just seemed the logical interpretation to me, though I'll remove the paragraph I added since you seem fairly sure about this and probably know more about it than I do. I'll ask for comments on one of the biology projects - I would like to get some clarification on the matter since everything I read in his books seems to support my view, though it's probably just the way I'm reading it. Richard001 08:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> This is an interesting point, and it's quite right that expert citations are needed to support what seems an unusual inference from the primary source. Browne's The Power of Place p 61 notes "While Darwin certainly allowed some place in his scheme for the direct effect of the environment on organisms – the inheritance of acquired characteristics that was popularly assumed to be the main feature of Lamarck's system – he always regarded the chief difference between them to be that he, Darwin, did not allow his organisms any future goal, any teleology pulling them forwards, or any internal force that might drive the adaptive changes in specific directions." Desmond and Moore's Darwin p 617 notes that later in life "Darwin was loath to let go of the notion that a well-used and strengthened organ could be inherited. For decades he had amassed evidence that tradesmen's physiques were passed on". Richard Leakey's commentary in The Illustrated Origin of Species goes into more detail, and I'll try to amend that article. The Origin p 108 notes "I think there can be no doubt that use in our domestic animals has strengthened and enlarged certain parts, and disuse diminished them; and that such modifications are inherited." In his RECAPITULATION AND CONCLUSION to the 6th edition of the Origin, p 421, Darwin evidently got it wrong – "species have been modified... chiefly through.. natural selection... aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts... But as my conclusions have lately been much misrepresented, and it has been stated that I attribute the modification of species exclusively to natural selection,.. I placed in a most conspicuous position—namely, at the close of the Introduction—the following words: 'I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.' This has been of no avail. Great is the power of steady misrepresentation; but the history of science shows that fortunately this power does not long endure." ... dave souza, talk 18:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm still confused why both of you feel its an unusual inference. Anyway, I've restored the section after finding a reference, which should quell any doubts. Richard001 08:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Dave souza was agreeing with you? I noticed that the Lamarckism article has an unreferenced section on Darwin & Lamarckism, would be good to fix it up with some of research and references you guys have gathered. Madeleine ✉ ✍ 23:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The only research I did was look in the index of Darwin until I found a page that had a statement explicitly pointing out that he supported the theory, but I'll be happy to add it to Lamarckism as well. Richard001 00:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The pic

The picture at the top of the article isn't very clear, at least not at its current resolution. It makes it look like the entire cecum is the appendix, because the labels are difficult to make out. 70.20.148.167 03:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vestigial structures vs. vestigial characters

We only have this one article for vestigiality, but vestigial characters need not be morphological. What about vestigial behaviors and physiological mechanisms? Should the page perhaps be moved to vestigial character (or vestigiality) so as to afford a greater scope (or more accurate name for what the article describes)? Richard001 23:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There hasn't been any feedback so I decided to just move it. It turned out to be a bit of work, as all the archives, to do list and peer reviews needed moving as well, and there are many redirect pages. Hopefully this name will stick, though it could be moved back or somewhere else if needed. Basically we need to start with an article discussing vestigial characters of all forms, behavioral, physiological, structural etc. The only other options seem to be vestigial character or perhaps moving it back to the better known name but making it very clear that is only part of what the article discusses, though I don't think that would be the best option.
Note: Just to make it clear, though the article still mainly focuses on anatomical structures, the idea is that it will shift its focus to something far broader.Richard001 10:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Microbes

I mentioned microbes in the to do list, though I'm not sure if they actually have vestigial characters. There's no reason they shouldn't in principle, as they are just as capable of adapting to a new environment as any other species, however I would imagine that because they evolve so fast compared with the large eukaryotic organisms such characters would be gone very swiftly. Richard001

[edit] Bad Reference

I am removing all references to <http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/www/writings/Vestigial.txt>, as it is an inaccurate source in many ways. It claims that penguins have hollow bones (when every source I have ever read states that they have solid bones), and the references at the end are only relevant to single-cellular organisms. Disconformist 17:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Useful reference

You might find this review useful. TimVickers 17:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fong D, Kane T, Culver D (1995). "Vestigialization and Loss of Nonfunctional Characters". Ann. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 26: 249–68. doi:10.1146/annurev.es.26.110195.001341. 

Thanks Tim. I was looking for information on this subject in some textbooks yesterday and to my dismay I found some texts on evolution didn't even have it in the index, and others gave at most a few paragraphs to the subject. I'll work on it as soon as I have some more time. Richard001 21:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creationism section

It says here that creationists who believe in some sort of microevolution but not macroevolution need not be worried about vestigial traits. Why? Our own appendix is not only a vestige in us, but has been for a long, long time. We would have been treated as several different species during the change from whatever we were when it was functional to what we are now. This is an uncited comment and will be removed completely (at the moment it is hidden) if there is no explanation. Richard001 07:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Why do we even *have* a section on "controversy"? There is NO controversy, just a bunch of deluded idiots who refuse to acknowledge indisputable facts. Inclusion of this section in no way clarifies the article, and actually undermines it by creating a false sense of controversy. Unless someone can suggest a damned fine reason to keep it, I'm just flat-out deleting it. Mokele 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

For the origin of this section, I suggest looking at 2006 in the history as well as archive 2. The seeds of the section were in the article from the earliest days, with weasley definitions of vestigial being included. As the article grew, separate sections were added to gather information under and the "controversy" section ended up in that form as an attempt to finally remove any question of what scientists mean when they use the word, and what they have meant in the past. I still think some history of the term and information on the misinformation and misunderstanding that floats around would be useful. Skittle (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Reservoir for good bacteria'?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vestigiality&diff=prev&oldid=193744687 Discuss :) Just bringing this to talk page as clearly there is disagreement here, and however we decide it probably shouldn't include the phrase 'good bacteria'. Skittle (talk) 19:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


My edit is correct - just because something has a minor remnant function does not mean it is any less vestigial. To quote this article itself: "Although structures usually called "vestigial" are largely or entirely functionless, a vestigial structure may retain lesser functions or develop minor new ones." The cocyx has muscles attached to it, gas exchange still occurs in the vestigial left lung of snakes, lungfish use their gills for nitrogen excretion, etc. That the appendix has a minor function does not make it any less of a vestige. If FiveRings wants to discuss these remnant functions, he should add them to the appendix article itself, not this article. The "examples" list is supposed to be just that - a list, not a detailed examination of each and every case. Mokele (talk) 21:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It's only a "minor remnant function" in humans living in modern society, who are biologically identical to humans living in situations where the appendix is useful (some are even still around today). This doesn't fit the definition. The appendix comment has a useful place in the examples list precisely because its vestigiality is still a common mis-perception. Hopefully Mokele will re-think her edit. FiveRings (talk) 23:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It being useful doesn't make it less vestigial. See the definition of vestigial found in the article and perhaps have a read of the, interesting, article Vermiform appendix. However minor or major the function, if it is not doing the original job it is vestigial. Skittle (talk) 23:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Second paragraph: However, care must be taken not to apply the label of vestigiality to exaptations, in which a structure originally used for one purpose is modified for a new one. For example, the wings of penguin would not be vestigial, as they have been modified for a substantial new purpose (underwater locomotion), while those of an emu would be, as they have no major purpose anymore (not even for display as in ostriches). Were we reading the same article? FiveRings (talk) 00:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Check the edit history: I wrote what you just quoted, so I'm more than aware of the difference between exaptation and vestigiality. The usefulness of the appendix as a refuge for beneficial bacteria is mere speculation, and has never been tested or examined to my knowledge. Furthermore, lack of beneficial bacteria doesn't kill people with diahrea-inducing diseases such as cholera - the loss of water, electrolytes, and nutrients do. If you're worried about growing your gut flora back, you're already in the clear, and the presence of a reservoir would merely speed recovery rather than prevent mortality. Until and unless someone actually tests the hypothesis, it won't be included in the article. Hypotheses are a dime a dozen; that's why nobody accepts them until they've been tested Mokele (talk) 03:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I provided a link to the published article. (A real controlled experiment probably wouldn't get past the human use committee). The question is if it provides an evolutionary benefit such that passing on the mutation is more than chance. If the hypothesis is correct, it does. And we all seem to have one, despite the obvious dis-advantage of appendicitis. That said, I would support removing the appendix from this article completely (including the picture). This issue is very new. More data will certainly be forthcoming. FiveRings (talk) 05:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I've read the article, and data doesn't require an explicitly manipulative experiment - just look at relative mortality rates of patients with intestinal diseases who have had appendectomies and those who haven't. It hasn't been done, and any good scientist will simply say 'well, where's the data to support it?'. As for the retention of the appendix, you incorrectly assume it's easy to 'lose' a trait. In actuality, almost all traits aren't the product of a single gene, but rather a complex pattern of activation of dozens or hundreds of developmental genes, making it probable that a mutation will have undesirable side effects. When looking at the evidence, I see absolutely no reason to remove the appendix from this article or to treat this latest hypothesis as anything but yet another of numerous attempts to find a significant function of what is obviously vestigial, so much so that it has become the effective 'poster child' of vestigiality. If more data does arrive, and if it supports the hypothesis, I'll change the article myself, but until then, there is no reason to either omit or qualify the listing of the appendix, especially since anyone who clicks on the link to the appendix wikipage will be able to read about this dispute directly and in much more detailed terms. Mokele (talk) 06:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The value of the reservoir is in isolated populations where everyone gets sick, not in crowded conditions where there can be community-based reinfection with new beneficial bacteria. Your proposed experiment would be meaningless. Yes, the appendix is the poster child of vestigiality. And, precisely BECAUSE there are dozens of theories about its use, it's the WRONG poster child. This should be opened to wider debate. FiveRings (talk) 17:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no wider debate without evidence. There are NO theories about it's use, because none of these hypotheses have been tested (required for elevation to theory status). That's how science works. I can propose a dozen hypotheses for just about anything, ranging from plausible to moronic, but they all mean nothing until they are TESTED. That there have been lots of proposals is irrelevant to this discussion - only data matters.
Until you (or anyone else) can produce actual empirical data for these hypotheses, there is precisely zero justification for claiming the appendix as non-vestigial. Sorry, but that's how science works: you need evidence to support a claim. Mokele (talk) 03:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue isn't how science works, it's how Wikipedia works.... FiveRings (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
You're wrong. Science is still working on this issue. Should wikipedia react to every utterance of a scientist prior to confirmation or acceptance? David D. (Talk) 07:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
But that's exactly the point. Science is still working on this issue. The matter isn't resolved one way or the other (and, given the nature of the organ, may never be). It's a lousy example. (More opinions please). FiveRings (talk) 18:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a text book example with one speculative paper that disputes it. I think we can live with this example until more is known. This is exactly the type of thing that happened when researchers claimed that Mendel's laws were broken by Arabidopsis. There was a rush to add it to articles and then it got proven incorrect six months later. Encyclopedias do not have to respond instantly. At most, reference the article, but to remove the example is premature. David D. (Talk) 18:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
There have been other papers published proposing other functions. I will grant that biofilms are flavor-of-the-month in biology research. (Mendel:Biology::Newton:Physics). FiveRings (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
David D's example is very good (and I remember that, though only vaguely, as genetics isn't my field). The problem is that the appendix is so famous that lots of people want to be "the person who discovered what it's for", and that's lead to a plethora of hypotheses, none of which have panned out. The number of claims is irrelevant without proof - I can find five times as many ideas about what's in Loch Ness, but until I see a corpse I see no reason to consider it anything but a big spooky lake full of bad-tasting cod (and whose hotels serve the worst ****ing coffee in the Western World, I should note). Mokele (talk) 02:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Can cod live in a freshwater loch? As for the coffee, what did you think the whiskey is for? ;) David D. (Talk) 04:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
My bad, I must've gotten them confused with carp. Sadly, at the age I visited Ness, I wasn't allowed anything strong enough to rid myself of the taste of that coffee. Mokele (talk) 04:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Scottish cuisine notwithstanding (and that alone is an oxymoron), the fact that the appendix is a perpetual target is, again, a reason it makes a lousy example. It's inflamed - remove it. FiveRings (talk) 06:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
It's only a target because, to be honest, most medical doctors have a half-assed understanding of evolutionary biology at best (and, to be honest, many of the more esoteric aspects of evolution which resolve this conflict wouldn't really help them in their profession anyway). The dispute over the appendix is a figment caused by this lack of understanding - we might as well get rid of evolution itself based on the constant attacks by creationists. Mokele (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Given the appendix is currently a text book example it would be far better to document the debate rather than prematurely delete it. David D. (Talk) 06:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


Ok, here's my general POV, in summarized form: The appendix is the 'poster-child' of vestigiality, and while numerous claims have been made about it's function, none have ever been supported. Furthermore, it's merely an example, albeit a prominent one, in this article, which is supposed to be about vestigiality in general. Given both of these, as well as the fact that the various hypotheses are detailed in the vermiform appendix article, I see the present state as the closest to ideal - This article isn't bogged down with needless qualifiers and disputes, and interested readers can find out more on the organ's individual page. In terms of accuracy as well as style, readability, and presentation, I think the current state is best. Mokele (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

And so the appendix controversy rears its ugly head again. This should be documented. A single sentence would do it. FiveRings (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I've added a bit which highlights the appendix and the total lack of data about any known function. However, I suspect there will continue to be careless edits made; at least it's not suffering the sort of infantile vandalism seen on other pages, though. Mokele (talk) 03:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Softened and tightened wording. Made 'hypothesis' a link for good measure. FiveRings (talk) 04:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I noted today that The Penguin dictionary of biology (10th edition, Thain & Hickman) says it's not vestigial. Richard001 (talk) 05:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Call me a cynic, but based on the name I suspect that book has large type, lots of pictures, and possibly pop-up illustrations. Anyhow, such a book would constitute a secondary source at best, thus inferior to direct reference of the primary literature. Mokele (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, the caricature of the dictionary you paint is fairly absurd, but I agree that biological dictionaries aren't very good sources. I often go to one when I want a good definition of a biological phenomenon, but I'm usually disappointed with what they give. Richard001 (talk) 07:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I usually just use Google; nine times out of ten I find a page or paper that explicitly defines whatever term I'm unclear on. Mokele (talk) 17:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)