Talk:Vespasian

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This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.

Originally the passage I copied from the 1911 EB read as follows:

"He went with Nero's retinue to Greece, and in 66 was appointed to conduct the war in Judaea, which was threatening unreast throughout the East, owing to a ubiquitous tale in those parts that from Judaea were to come the future rulers of the world."

After some further reflections, I realised that this might appear to some readers as pushing a under-handed agenda of promoting one view of the contents of the article on Jesus Christ. This was not my intent: I reserve all opinion on the historical facts of this personage, & am not interested in presenting them here. The author of the 1911 EB article -- who is my source about this -- was merely recasting the statements of Suetonius, who actually reports that there was a story to this effect in circulation at this time. Or so our manuscripts say. -- llywrch 03:59 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)

Contents 1 Name 2 Corn 3 Vespasian tax on urine 4 POV

[edit] Name

The article says: "originally known as Titus Flavius Vespasianus". But Titus Flavius Vespasianus redirects to Titus, not to Vespasian. Please clarify, disambig or error. mikka (t) 21:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

They both had the same name. I've disambig'd it. --Nicknack009 21:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Is "Imperator" really part of his official name? I thought that was his title.Student7 17:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

In Latin there's precious little difference between a name and a title, especially for Roman Emperors ("Augustus" and "Caesar" are good examples of this). Lots of emperors used the words that we think of as their titles, including "Imperator", as names. Binabik80 17:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corn

This page links to the disambiguation page Corn, but I'm not sure which sense is intended. Can you help? Thanks. — Pekinensis 15:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the word to "grain" since it obviously wasn't referring to maize. siafu 15:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

But might it not be referring more specifically to wheat? — Pekinensis 15:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It might. Unfortunately, I don't know for sure, so I put "grain" which can't fail to be accurate, if imprecise. If you do know it to be wheat, by all means change it. siafu 15:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course this is fine if we don't know, but I'd imagined I was addressing the original author and that they would know what they had meant. Perhaps that person is gone now. Thanks — Pekinensis 22:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vespasian tax on urine

On the urinal page there is a note about Vespasian:

Parisians referred [their street urinals] as vespasiennes, the name being derived from that of the Roman Emperor Vespasian, who imposed a tax on urine.

Is this true, or just an another misunderstanding like Caligula and the horse?

Talamus 00:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The tax was on public lavitories. It is true and mentioned in Suetonius, but more in the light of a joke than as an act of tyranny. RBobicus 21:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that Vespasian actually invented the public toilet, and that in France public toilets were referred to as vespasiennes as recently as thirty years ago (and may be still, for all I know). My understanding, which doesn't come from a reliable source unfortunately, is that Vespasian invented the public toilet for the purpose of collecting human urine for the tanning of leather, and that this much easier urine collection made leathers much more affordable to Romans. I thought I'd put that into the discussion in case anyone else has a citable source on it! Songflower 21:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well there were privately operated public toilets in Rome a couple of centuries before Vespasian. You had to pay to use them, though. Binabik80 17:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The last section really needs some NPOV cleanup. Tell us who said he was a great emperor. Nippoo 19:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Michael Grant, Gibbon and H.A. Mattingly come right to mind. I see your point about the final section though. It looks like there are a lot of unsourced statements there.RBobicus 21:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have duly flagged it so. Sources for these opinions need to be found. Daniel Case 03:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Who said Vespasian was a great emperor? Firstly, his son Titus, who deified him (of the earlier emperors only Augustus and Claudius had been deified up to this point), but he would say that, wouldn't he. Secondly, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus uses phrases such as "mighty reputation" (Suetonius, Vespasian 8), and consider Suetonius Vespasian 12; "In all other matters he was from first to last modest and lenient", and Vespasian 16 lists his "one serious failing" as avarice. Sue. Vesp 17; "Vespasian behaved most generously to all classes", Sue Vesp 22; "nearly always ... good natured".

In modern authors, I would add Garzetti, in 'From Tiberius to the Antonines: A history of the Roman Empire AD 14 - 192' translated by J.R. Foster. For example; pg 226 "... the hope that the civil war ... had finally completed its destructive cycle, but also by the weariness of Italy and the words of wisdom and peace which came from the new Princeps. The reality did not belie the expectations." Page 227; "With the fading of the bloom of the urban emperors ... the Princeps who now followed brought with him, ... the new element which, grafted onto the old, still standing trunk, was to ensure the exuberant continuation of the empire at its political summit." Ibid; "The administration was once again the saving element ...". Pg 228 "Thus it is right to equate the reign of Vespasian with the first decisive change of direction in the empire. ... the Roman imperial state resumed, after this first crisis, its still prosperous progress ... ". Pg 239 "... more disposed to live in harmony with a Princeps who embodied the ideals of its own Italian and provincial origins." Finally, on page 257 the concluding sentence about Vespasian is "By the last few years of the reign, abroad as well as at home, the most stable and well-ordered security system ever enjoyed by the empire had been organized."