Talk:Vespa

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ADDITION OF EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE MAIN ARTICLE: If you want to add an External link to the mian article, then place a link to it here on the discussion page under a separately created section so that we can discuss it. This page is prone to attracting External Links, and the rules of wikipedia state that only those links that ADD VALUE to the article should be included - see WP:EXT. However, we recognise that some people who can add a lot of value to the article also want to add their favourite link, which can on occasions have high commercial content. So, create a discussion here first, and lets go from there!


Contents

[edit] Vespa Name

The name Vespa, also referes to the sound of the wasp, and the old 2-stroke engines. Comment: This may be true for many users, but there are no sources indicating the engine sound as a reason for the original choice of name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.198.254 (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pick-Up

didn't vespa make a 3 wheel pickup?

True, Vespa also has been producing three wheel pickups . These vehicles are called Piaggio Ape and are still in production. In fact, until today they are an important asset to small businesses. Capable of passing through the narrowest streets, they are the perfect means for transporting all kinds things in the typical Italian villages and cities.

[edit] Engine Cooling

The article says, "...but a blower was soon attached to the transmission to push air over the cylinder's cooling fins (the modern Vespa engine is still cooled this way)..."

Actually, cooling is accomplished via a finned flywheel which is attached to one side of the crankshaft. (This comment is not mine, but instead moved from the main text of the article.)--Seanh 02:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Your finned flywheel is almost certainly the blower mentioned in the article...For current models I found Ram air with secondary air system. I also found a liquid cooled model.--Scribner 08:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

As would be suspected, the number of external links is again picking up. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised - when I sectioned the external links section, I purposefully made it fairly easy to add your favourite website to the list. However, as always some unregistered editors have added their sites in the wrong place. If we apply wiki rules to the letter, then only non-commercial websites which add information can be linked to - so goodbye all the BBS and other great information on commercial websites. I also think from other articles, that removing all such sites is both impossible and not practical - people who run these sites are often the best source of creating/improving articles. What does anyone else think? Should we limit it to say five BBS fourms, or should we vote on which ones to keep - both things which have occured on other articles. Rgds, - Trident13 10:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be no rhyme or reason behind what sites are deleted and what sites stay. There are some sites still listed that have no value other than "I ride a Vespa and this is my daily blog" and some that have a good deal of useful information are deleted. --Rally180 01:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I deleted any site that is not in English, because this is an English-language article, and I deleted the VIN site and another site because they didn't load up (at least not in my browser). If they work for you, re-add them and put something like (Note: you may have to use browser name for this site to work). I deleted the "I heart Vespa" site (as I have done in other articles) because the last time I checked, the only content on there is the sale of T-shirts. I was tempted to delete the blogs and message boards because they're usually not accepted as relevant external sources on Wikipedia, but I left them for now because then there would be almost no links left. I was also tempted to delete any links not specifically about Vespas, but left them for the same reason. If I accidentally deleted a site that is relevant to Vespas (and in English), feel free to re-add them Spylab 12:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Trident13 that we should stick to editing guidelines and keep non-commercial websites, blogs, and forums that provide useful information about the Vespa. Amidst all of the junk on the web, there exist several great resources for would-be and current Vespa owners and collectors. I agree with Spylab that links to commercial, off-topic, or unrelated websites should be removed. I would also add that websites that discuss the topic of "scootering" and contain only passing references to the Vespa don't seem to fit in this article. There are still at least a few websites that are consistently removed and then re-added that contain no Vespa-relevant content in English. -- lemworld 04:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
OK editors - here's what I have done:
    • Looked at my last consolidation of the external links, and noted comments above. I think we have to accept some fan/dealer sites because they do add information here which would take up a lot of space/time for us to add little value to the article as an encyclopedic entry. If they add value/insight, then they can be added under wiki rules
    • I have kept some non-English sites here, because if you have a pre-70's bike you probaby can read enough Italian to be able to buy parts which are only now available from Italy. The italian forums add a lot of information to the understanding of older bikes/readers of the article
    • Culled the remainder down to what I viewed as essential - please feel free to cull some more if you have commented on this page/forum first. I found one that says: "I have added a link at wiki to get some more members, because if I don't this BBS will close down." I guess he's closing down...
    • Added a warning, only visible in the edit text: "WARNING TO ALL - add your commercial, BBS or spam website here without first registering at Wiki AND discussing in on the Discussion page of this article, and it WILL be deleted. You have been warned"
    • Noted my last edit as the reference edit on External Links - if in doubt, reference from this edit on external links
    • Request semi-protection of the article, therefore not allowing anon's to add such spam sites
    • If this doesn't work, then I think once we have all agreed a reasonable list of external links, we should ask to fully-protect the article from editing for a period, to stop these forums/commercial sites being added. Rgds, - Trident13 05:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vespa Owners

The article is getting a bit long, so before it gets a "too long" tag, I was thinking of stubbing a few sections. Firstly, the Riders section - a good list which is a bit too long. Secondly, most motorcycle articles move the models section list to a stub. Thoughts? Rgds, - Trident13 11:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps we're getting too good at this article stuff?

I was doing the monthly culling of the external links, and noticed that this website has referenced us here at Wiki as having the best list of real/fictional riders! I therefore assume that the anon editor 71.255.194.222 who added them as the "official" Vespa blog, and their sole edit on Wiki - was pulling our leg on that occasion. Keep up the good work all - no wonder why we are being hit by loads of anon's to get on the external links list. Rgds, - Trident13 04:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spaceballs

Please, why no link to "spaceball spaceballs"? Thank You. [[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 16:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Done - excellent suggestion! Its the external links not the articles additions we want to manage. Rgds, - Trident13 18:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Much like many of the other pages on this website, even knowing that it's there, it's yet difficult to locate.

Maybe someone would invent software that would simplify it all.

"*Spaceballs - the character Princess Vespa of Druidia is blatantly based on the Vespa in the Mel Brooks movie"

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 23:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] http://italy.culturaltravel.net

Sorry if I mess this up but I'm fairly new to the art of Wikipedia. I have a non-commercial site that I think would be of great interest all all Vespa owners. So I'm hoping I've followed the procedures correctly and that everyone gets a chance to view and approve it. Please let me know if you have any questions. Best regards, Warren Quietleader 21:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the value to the article BUT I like the content and its certainly non-commercial. Gets my vote for retention. Rgds, - Trident13 20:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sip-scootershop.com

Hello, i listed the link to one of the largest vespa communities Community and even though there is a commercial site behind the community is very well visited and a great source for everyone into Vespa. Beside the community there are user blogs and galleries and I see no reason why the link was deleted. I added the link again and would be happy if you keep it. Thanks. Sipsepp 07_01_07

And I removed it again - sorry! Having speedy delete tagged your article on Sip-Scootershop today (and see it later removed), I am still not convinced of the value of this link above those we already have, and the large amount of commercial content. Rgds, - Trident13 20:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Junk?

What about junk Vespas? It seems worth mentioning that some less-than-roadworthy vespas are making an appearance on city streets due to the renewed popularity in vintage bikes. I'm guessing that some nonzero number of folks interested in a vintage scooter would come across the Wikipedia page at some point, and it has (unfortunately) become a significant issue in vintage scootering. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.144.133 (talk) 05:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

This article is about Vespa's as a whole and not set up as a buyers guide. It will lead to opinion and not 100% fact. --Rally180 06:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] star/stella translation

As an employee of genuine scooter company/ Scooterworks, i can authoritatively say that the Stella/Star cross translation is a bacronym invented by outside sources after the fact, and is unverifyable. Rob Hodge 24.12.75.116 03:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The original statement was misleading. The change from correlation to translation made is a fact worthy of note that you may have missed. Star in italian is stella is quite verifiable. Employee of Genuine is nice for you to tell us, why not get an account, revert your assumptive error and edit stuff that is not only directly involving your employer, but other things you may have a more nuetral bias in. I'll leave your removal of the simple fact, if only to keep far far away from 3RR. --Unixham 01:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have knowledge of the stella beyond the average joe, including knowlege of just about everything that's ever been published on them. I could go to town on this section since it's vastly simplifying LML's lineup into the one model that sounds most similar to stella. LML manufactured at least 7 different models based on the PX, just within the last five years. i've got printed parts manuals for each of them on my bookshelf next to my desk. In reality, there are vast differences between the star and the stella and the star is probably one of the two LML models that stella shares the least in common with. the Star was the bargain basement model. no disc brakes, no battery, no oil injection, three port instead of five port, no reed valve, different cowls, floor mats instead of rails, six spring clutch instead of 7-spring clutch, and a host of other differences. The stella is as much a star as a P125 is a T5. i could go over how the stella name was come up with but that'd be original research since it's never been published, and therefore inadmissible in wikapedia. while linguistically stella does mean star in italian, to put it in this article in the context it was used in is misleading because it implies that star and the stella are identical, and they are not. 68.166.82.115 22:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could we not create a replicas section within the article? OK, so one model has six springs versus seven on its clutch - still looks 90/95% like a vespa on the skin above, plus this ignores the fact that these replicas are/were licensed from the Vespa factory. We are an encyclopedia, not an authoritive guide to Vespa maintenance. Rgds, - Trident13 09:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vespas in pop culture - is there a point?

Don't you think this section is rather trivial? Is it necessary in an encyclopedia? — hippi ippi++++ 09:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Could be argued either way - but like other style icons, the link between the two is now both blured and mutual. The mass popularity of the Vespa was launched on the back of a film, and filmstars of the 50's/60's used them around the sets and so the brand gained additional publicity. If your point was posed as "is it too big" I would probably agree with that (we could remove everything without a reference), but the list is attracting a large number of people to the article and introducing them to Wikipedia, and it keeps our trivia in one section. Having seen how the car project group have tried and failed to maintain their no trivia/no owners policy (or even define it properly), its something we could do but have to be practical with. We have "won" the trivia external links battle through a clear policy and diligence - I still gain a few scars occasionally managing it with others! If a clear agreement and policy could be defined by those who have added/police this article, I would be happy to support. Rgds, - Trident13 09:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The section violates WP:TRIVIA, WP:EMBED, and WP:IINFO. The fact that any given person owns a Vespa is trivial and not notable. What can be done is have a section showing that certain instances of Vespas in pop culture helped improve sales, but would need to be well referenced. As it is, the only such comment is on Roman Holiday, but is WP:OR as it stands now.--SeizureDog 17:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No reply, so I have removed the section again.--SeizureDog 08:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Look a little more carefully, there is a reply (or at least a concern about the removal) on this talk page, see Talk:Vespa#The list of films/riders" --Nick Penguin 21:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I removed 2 pictures today. One is the Russian scooter. It is not a Vespa nor is it a decent copy. The reference link calls it "a perfect Russian copy of the most famous scooter of the world!". It is as much of a copy as the Bajaj Chetak looks like a Vespa. I also removed the picture of the 2 vespa's. What are they? New when? I would like to delete the picture of the 150 as it is not a very good picture at all.--Rally180 05:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Good clean up. I might have tried to keep the Russian photo in some way, but you have a fair point. The picture of the 150 is poor, so happy to support removal. Rgds, - Trident13 09:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Primavera picture. Not a very good picture of a small frame. It would be nice if there were a proper primi picture to show the differences between a large & small frame. --Rally180 19:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Didn't Mods use Lambrettas as often as Vespas?

"Vespa was much more widely used in the 1950s and 60s, when it also became the adopted vehicle of choice for the UK youth-culture known as Mods."

Did Mods really prefer Vespas, or just scooters in general? If I understand correctly, Mods would ride either Vespas or Lambrettas, or maybe even Heinkel Tourists if they had enough money or BSA Sunbeams if they weren't yet clued in to BSA Sunbeams' quality problems. Respectfully, SamBlob 16:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The principal scooters ridden by mods were Vespas & Lambrettas not Heinkels & BSA's. Understand the huge rivalry between with the rockers that rode Nortons. Triumphs & BSA's. "I ride a GS scooter with my hair cut neat" The Who. --Rally180 21:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vespa Share program

Re posted from the talk page of Trident13

I am new to this whole thing and I was reading all the warnings about external links. My wife (who suffers from Lupus) and I run a Vespa rental business in Miami and we also have a Vespa-Share program and our members are called "Greenie's." I think we are the only Vespa-Share program in the country identical to the Car-share programs that exist in NY, Chicago, and Boston. I wanted you to take a look and let me know what section (if not a section of it's own) this info should go in based on this articles large scope of info. Again I am new to this and yes this would be a way for us to drive people to our web site and yes we would benefit from it if people became members but I think our service is the only service in North America and we all have to do our share to reduce our carbo-emmissions. Let me know what you think of the link and if or when I can add it to the article? Q Fortune
Hi! Thanks for your message re the Vespa article. I have had a look at your website, which perhaps at present looks a little bit under developed. I looked around it, but can't find out the scale of your present operation - how many bikes do you have? I would say at present most of the main contributors would see your addition of a link as "spam" or failing WP:EXT - perhaps if it included some information about and why vespas? To start a debate on whether to/to not add a link, I have posted your piece on my talk page to the articles talk page. However, if you want a quicker and more likely positive outcome, and you like Vespa's and think you could add information to the present Wikipedia article before you add your link, then most of our best contributors are also commercial operations owners, some of whom have links at the bottom as a concession. Add some information on Vespa's, build up a consistent edit record, and go from there. If you have any questions, come back to me. Best Regards, --Trident13 13:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it is a commercial endevour. I think it has more to do with ride-share than a vespa article. If there was something noteable other than the use of Vespa's then I say include it. Just my opinion. --Rally180 21:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The list of films/riders

Thankfully, Rally180 reverted an edit by a well known editor, and reinserted what was seen as a "trivia" section. I kind of understand where this editor is coming from, but have always personally had the perspective that if you don't appreciate how important films and star-riders were to the development of the Vespa as a global icon, you probably don't understand Vespa or its communal/comeraderie culture. I think the section is getting a bit long, but I don't want to lose the information contained within. Anyone have any thoughts? Rgds, - Trident13 14:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think a good start would be attempting to merge the list of Fictional Characters that have ridden Vespas and the list of Films featuring vespas, since these lists are (or should/could) be virtually the same. And perhaps trimming some of the famous vespa riders section down only to entries that have a citation, that might help raise the quality of these sections and still retain the information. EDIT Perhaps it would also be useful to tell readers what these "famous people" are supposed to be famous for, since I don't instantly recognize all of them for their fame. --Nick Penguin 22:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I have attempted to cleanup this section, but only by representing the information contained therein; I would ask that other users help find citations for these facts. Any "Famous Vespa riders" that had no citation I have removed, and I leave the following list here for others to find citations for --Nick Penguin 22:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference issues

There are lots of wonderful references at the end of this article. HOWEVER, only 10 of them are linked within the main text. This seems to be an error--because as it stands now, most of the article appears completely unreferenced. I don't know how to fix, unfortunately.Williamroy3 (talk) 20:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Woops! Sorry--In fact it turns out that much of the article is indeed unreferenced, and that the bulk of the references are for the "Famous Vespa Riders" section. This seems very not good. This article is full of material that cries out for references. Williamroy3 (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Haruko2.png

Image:Haruko2.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture no picture picture no picture

Is there any reason not to have this image in the article? I find it reasonable to have at least one picture of a current model in the article. However, for greater visual variety, perhaps the 1998 and 2008 pictures could be moved further apart?--Father Goose (talk) 00:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Following my own suggestion, I've moved the 2008 picture to the "Current models" section, and moved the whole "models" section above the "popular culture section", as it is higher-priority information.--Father Goose (talk) 00:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Just FWIW, a picture of just the Vespa without the distraction of the guy riding it would be better - the cropping isn't ideal either (looks like there's a bus or something behind him, so it's been cropped "short"?). FlagSteward (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorporate or splinter the pop culture lists

I'm just passing through, but as a general comment - the article looks great, with a bit more referencing you'd probably get a WP:GA - until you get to the "famous people with Vespas" list. Which reads as a "sort of famous people whose buttocks have touched a Vespa" list. Lisa Rogers may have many achievements, but contributing to the mystique of the Vespa is not one of them. The trouble is that any list like that is pretty much fundamentally flawed because everyone starts adding their pet favourite. Much better to avoid a straight list and incorporate into the history sections a handful of people who have genuinely contributed to the development of the brand. Ditto with the films - I'd be tempted to shift most of them into a new article "Scooters in popular culture" or some such. While those articles often get non-encyclopaedic, Champagne in popular culture is an example of one that gets it "right" IMO. Incorporate or splinter out that stuff, add a few more references, and you should be on for GA. FlagSteward (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)