Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Citation Poll

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[edit] Citation format poll

There has been confusion and conflict over some source citation verifiability issues, including the examples in Wikipedia:Verifiability. Some clarification is needed. (SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

This poll confuses several issues. In particular it uses "URL only" when it really means inline only; there is a URL only problem for the References (and External links) section as well. It is also trying to promote one particular technique for handling inline and full citations. --David Woolley
The examples are using inline URL usage, but description applies to any situation where the only information about a source is a URL. URL-only has less info than URL-with-access-date, which has less info than URL-with-title-with-access-date; extend for author, publisher, or any additional citation info. (SEWilco 08:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] This poll is biased and misleading

This poll is biased and misleading. The editor presenting it has been blocked [1] for improperly using his footnote method against or without consensus. He is currently the subject of an RFC see [2] and is the subject of an arbitration case partly involving his pushing of footnotes, see [3]. By initiating this poll, he appears to be attempting to garner after the fact support for his case. - Vsmith 12:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Note: this poll is highly misleading. SEWilco has been blocked, and has had an RfC and RfAr opened against him, because of his campaign against Harvard referencing and embedded links in favor of footnotes. The examples he gives below are incomplete and misleading. WP:V and WP:CITE both say any of the three citation styles are acceptable. What's important is to persuade editors to cite any sources at all; if we try to dicate that they must use footnotes, they'll just ignore us. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with SlimVirgin and Vsmith that this poll is misleading, or at the least is very confusing and poorly formulated. What exactly is the point of these polls? The binary choices offered in no way fairly represents the range of options available for citing references. older≠wiser 17:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Bkonrad et al. For this reason I will not be voting in the options below and do not consider myself bound by them. For example if an article is taken from BE1911, and then a couple of other details are added from other sources. I would not consider it necessary to put a citation on every sentence that came from BE1911, as one "Template:1911 PAGE NAME" in the references is sufficient, but I would footnote additions or corrections to the article which were from other sources (and not just style changes to the text). In the example I have given Q4 does not have a yes/no answer. I can construct similar examples which means for me the answer is not yes/no but "it depends" for most of the other questions posed below. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above; I've added a header to make this section rather more obvious. William M. Connolley 22:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC).

SlimVirgin neglected to mention that SlimVirgin is the person who blocked me. The block was because I converted numbered URL-only links to numbered WP:FN links, and added the titles of the documents using WP:CITET templates. I did this following WP:V and WP:CITE preferences for complete citations. You can read SlimVirgin's justification at User talk:SEWilco#Changing links to footnotes. SlimVirgin also is incorrect, as I support Harvard referencing. What is important is more complete citations, as we're building an encyclopedia and not a collection of 404 links spattered around text. I also am not dictating footnotes must be used, and am supporting Wikipedia's accepting any minimal citations which a user can provide and the expectation that someone will improve the weak citations. SlimVirgin also neglected to mention that the RFAr is improper. (SEWilco 02:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
SE, you didn't know what Harvard referencing was until very recently. The RfAr is not improper, and nor is the RfC. Your behavior around this issue has been highly disruptive for weeks and this "poll" with its absurdly loaded questions is the latest example of it. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've known and used Harvard referencing for decades. You're the one confused between the appearance of references and the reference themselves. Talk:Harvard_referencing#Recent_edits My Wikipedia activity has been disrupted for weeks due to interference which violates common sense and Wikipedia policies. (SEWilco 06:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC))

Neither the RFA or the RFC is yet complete. Further, the aim of an RFA and an RFC is not to destroy the reputation of an editor (oh my god: he had an RFC against him.. barely human :-), nor as a basis for personal attacks against that editor. They are designed to allow us to get back to actually producing an encyclopedia. The poll should be treated as a good faith attempt to build consensus. If you feel the examples are incomplete, please give us better examples in the comments below or within your own vote. Specifically I you could consider an example in which direct links are combined with comments for long term maintainability. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q1: Are more detailed citations preferred over less detailed ones?

Yes
  1. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Dalbury(Talk) 10:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. Yes, but note the objections above. This question is designed to mislead. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. Jkelly 17:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  6. nobs 18:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  7. yes, detailed citations are possible in several methods; they should be used in every article Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. Yes, although I stress the word preferred, not demanded. That is a very leading question. Hiding talk 20:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Yes. --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. Yes. Of course. JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  11. yes.--JK the unwise 09:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. Yes. The question is somewhat leading in the way it is phrased, but more information is usually better than less information. --Allen3 talk 17:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  13. Preferably in Harvard style. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  14. Yes, unless extended to absurdity. Shimmin 14:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  15. Of course. I'm not sure how absurdly far this can be extended — what goes too far? A photograph of the book cover? Let's be a bit rational here. :) Johnleemk | Talk 11:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  16. Yes. -- Polaris999 22:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No
  1. Andrewa 01:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC) Badly phrased question. Citations should have neither too much nor too little detail.
    comment: I cannot answer this question because I am not sure what is meant here by "citation." If you mean what I think the word means, my answer is no. For example, Harvard system citations just have author's last name, year of publication, and page number. I think that is adequate and more information would be distracting. If by citation you mean the references that go at the end of the article, my answer is yes. However, I believe this is stated quite clearly in our Cite sources policy already.
    • By citation I mean the description of source material, such as the title of a book from which a quotation was extracted. I use the term "citation" to avoid the double meaning of "reference" of referring either within or outside a document. (SEWilco 05:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
    Agree. The question is deliberately misleading. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Bizarre question. Citations are supposed to contain the information needed to look it up - no more no less. Dan100 (Talk) 23:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Is "Lord of the Rings" less detailed than "Lord of the Rings by Tolkien"? Is "Lord of the Rings by Tolkien (animated film)" even more detailed? (SEWilco 05:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
Abstain/Comment
  1. I agree that this is too poorly worded a question to answer with a simple yes/no response. Courtland 00:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q2: Are detailed citations preferred over URL-only citations?

  • Are more detailed citations preferred over URL-only citations?
    • Is "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest. [4]" preferred over "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest [5]."?
    • Citation for first example above:
      1. ^  World Climate Conference 1979. Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No. Retrieved on November 17, 2005.
Yes (first example preferred)
  1. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    # Dalbury(Talk) 10:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. A footnote is recognizable as a footnote. A green bracketed number is not immediately recognizable as an off-site link. Jkelly 17:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. nobs 18:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. such direct links are not verifiable. The content may be changed without any trace; the link may go broken; a porn site may turn up in the same location. Direct links, whilst useful for creating citations from, are not citations. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  6. Aye, I prefer the first example, it allows for more information regarding the source or reference. I would also argue that external links not be removed if found to be dead. Hiding talk 20:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  7. Andrewa 01:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. I prefer the first over the second under premise that I had to choose between the two. The first is the lesser evil for me. Disclaimer: I'm a bloody WP newbie. – Adrian | Talk 08:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Yes, of course. JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. Yes, and it is exceptable for an editor to come in and change it even if they haven't done any other work on the article.--JK the unwise 09:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  11. Yes. --Allen3 talk 17:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  13. Courtland 00:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  14. Polaris999 22:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No (second example preferred)
  1. Second example preferred so long as it is accompanied by a citation in the References section, just as the first example has to be accompanied by a footnote in the Notes section. These questions are misleading and unacceptable, and the examples given are incomplete. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    But does this not lead to two URL links having to be maintained. On in-line and another in the references. As they are not tied together in any way doesn't that lead to potential problems with future maintenance? --Philip Baird Shearer 18:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    There's no requirement to repeat a live link in the References section. What's important is that the full citation information be supplied. Then if the link goes dead, people can still find the article. It's the same when using a footnote system to refer to a link. If it goes dead, it goes dead regardless of which citation system we use. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. No, I much prefer the simple in-line links. Editors are far more likely to use that style too. Of course, there's nothing to prevent other people changing the style afterward (which begs the question of what is this poll about?) Dan100 (Talk) 23:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Question confuses multiple issues
  1. the question confuses inline only with URL only. Inline only is usually better than out of line only, as one only has to check one source to verify a claim. Full cite is better for an out of line reference than URL only, because it eases repair, looks more professional and allows one to quickly decide whether one trusts the source. Both inline and out of line is better than just one, as one has a catalogue of links and a place for full citations. --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. As per User:David Woolley. DES (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Courtland 00:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. Very minor nitpick, but I prefer the citation style (for the full citation) as given at Wikipedia:Cite sources/example style. Otherwise, agreed with "yes". Johnleemk | Talk 11:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q3: Are URL-only citations considered temporary?

  • Is the use of URLs ("inline links") as supporting material to be tolerated as being only temporary citations, and is it encouraged they be replaced by more complete citation information?
Yes, URL-only links should be replaced
  1. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. WP:FAC seems to think that they need fixing. Jkelly 17:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. nobs 18:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. always direct links should be improved to have citaton information. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  6. Yes for out of line references; weak yes for inline references when there is also an out of line one.
  7. Andrewa 01:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. Yes, especially of a print one can be substituted (e.g. PubMed abstracts) JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Yes, and it is exceptable for an editor to come in and change it even if they haven't done any other work on the article.--JK the unwise 09:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. Given the choice between a URL-only citation and nothing, I will take the URL. A URL can be changed into a proper citation by another editor. --Allen3 talk 17:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  11. Courtland 00:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. Fredrik | tc 17:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  13. Polaris999 22:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No, never replace URL-only citations
  1. I'm probably misunderstanding the question, and possibly doing so on purpose, but no, URL-only citations are no more temporary than any other citation, or time itself. Hiding talk 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. SEWilco is deliberately asking a loaded question. When embedded links are used as sources, a link to the source is added after the sentence or paragraph it refers to, and the full citation information is meant to be added to the References section. When footnotes are used, a numbered link is added after the sentence, and the full citation information is meant to be added to the Notes section. Therefore, when used correctly, both styles of citation (embedded links and footnotes) provide the same amount of information. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. No, external links are often helpful. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
False dichotomy
  1. Is it possible that there might be a position somewhere between "always" and "never"? Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 17:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Maybe somewhere between "should" and "never". Such as not being changed until someone improves them. (SEWilco 02:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
  2. If a better source or citation is available then is should be provided. For some facts, a URL is the best possible citation, suich as what a particular group posted on its web site. For many facts, a URL is a perfectly acceptable citation, and there is no particular need to replace it. DES (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Without more information, such as the title of the page, the source may be lost when the web site is rearranged. Even a group's self description may be moved between pages "About", "About us", "Company", or "?phpid=1134". (SEWilco 20:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
  3. Ditto DESiegel. While it's hard to think of a case presently where an online source would be superior to all others, it's not too difficult to imagine this may change in the future — which is not necessarily too distant. Even if the website is rearranged, that's what the "retrieved [date]" is for. Johnleemk | Talk 11:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Comments
  1. While hard citations should be preferred, URL-only citations are sometimes all that are available to an editor. -- Dalbury(Talk) 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    please could you explain further; almost all web pages have titles and those should be copied. If something lacks Author / Title and date information it can hardly be seen as a source to be cited (although it might be a legitimate external link of course - a company's home page, for example). Do you have any examples of what you mean Mozzerati 22:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    When I've been adding full citations I have found that it is not uncommon for even high quality sources to lack authors or dates. Sometimes you can substitute an editor for the author, but sometimes, you have to use just the organisation, e.g. a BBC News obituary can only be attributed to the BBC. It is mainly only academic papers that can have full citationd, but there is acadmmic material that doesn't, particularly if it is more in the form of database entries. Corporately generated material often subsumes the individual into the corporate identity. Recently I was filling in references for an unsourced article about a place and I used the A to Z street atlas of London. It had neither a publication date, nor an author that I could find, but did have an ISBN, so could be uniquely identified. --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia does encourage editors to supply whatever citation information they have, on the expectation that someone else will improve a poor citation (as with everything else in Wikipedia). (SEWilco 02:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
Eh?

This is easily the weirdest poll I've seen in a while... what's actually the point? No-one has say over the style used when the url is first added. Nothing is stopping anyone from changing the style later. Dan100 (Talk) 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Except stupid edit warring, I now see... how lame. Dan100 (Talk) 00:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q4: Is it desirable to identify which statement uses which source?

Yes
  1. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Yes, but there are several ways of doing this, ranging from handling the references section as an annotated bibliography to using very detailed footnoting. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    # Desirable, but I can foresee a lot of resistance to it. -- Dalbury(Talk) 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Highly misleading question. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. My understanding is that there is no consensus about how to do so, but that it needs doing. Jkelly 17:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. Desirable, but not absolute. On occassion it may be necessary to place a footnote closer to the beginning of text rather than upon completion. But clarity should be encouraged, nobs 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  6. specific facts should always be traced to a specific source. Page references should be included wherever possible. I recently spent over a day searching for a single reference for a fact I myself had put into an article! Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  7. aye, but again, it's a misleading question. Hiding talk 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. yes, but it is even more important to get people to think in terms of sources rather than "see alsos" at all. --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Yes, but a) we need to first concentrate on getting editors to provide sources in any form, and b) the footnote method is not the only method that fully accomplishes this goal. Harvard-style citations will do this also. DES (talk) 16:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. Yes. The real question is what is the best way to do this. --Allen3 talk 17:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  11. Obviously, this is a basic of citing. It's a bit like asking "should you breathe to stay alive?" Dan100 (Talk) 00:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. Shimmin 14:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  13. Courtland 00:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  14. Ditto Dan100. Johnleemk | Talk 11:43, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  15. Polaris999 22:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No
  1. This requires very close editorial attention, and should be performed by the regular contributors of articles. In other words, they have to tidy up their own mess. JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes
  1. Andrewa 00:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC) (And I think that's what a lot of the qualified "yes" votes really mean. We don't want all Wikipedia articles to look like PhD theses!)
  2. Not if it results in to many refs. Ref's at end of paragrapths are good enough.--JK the unwise 09:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I intentionally used the word "statement" to avoid indicating a specific type of text section. (SEWilco 14:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
Comment

I have an example where a editor changed a footnoted, eyewitness, first person account, to a third party who was not even present to the context. nobs 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q5: Are references linked to citations preferred?

  • Wikipedia:Footnotes has the current best practice for linking text a to relevant citation. Wikipedia:Cite sources states that "full citations of the articles and websites linked to must be included in the ==References== section" but does not suggest how readers are to find which citation is relevant to a mentioned article or website.
Yes (first example preferred)
  1. If you can't find the right citation details you can't use it. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Weakly preferred. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    # Even though it probably be ignored by almost all editors. -- Dalbury(Talk) 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Bad options. Jkelly 17:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. Preferable. nobs 18:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. ideally MediaWiki should automate this in a nice way, but for now this is the best option. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  6. Personally, yes. Is there demonstrable consensus though. Hiding talk 20:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  7. Yes for visual linking; currently no for hypertext linking as there is no technology available that works well and could be easily understood by the average Wikipedia editor --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. Yeah. JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Yes, and it is exceptable for an editor to come in and change it even if they haven't done any other work on the article.--JK the unwise 09:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. Yes, but this needs software support. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  11. Can't think of much to say, but the full details of a source are almost always preferable to just a URL link. Johnleemk | Talk 11:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. Preferable. Polaris999 22:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
No (second example preferred)
  1. If I want to view the external site, I prefer one click to two. Shimmin 20:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes
  1. Andrewa 01:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Courtland 00:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The question is misleading as phrased
  1. Some method of indicating which refernce supports which fact should be provided, but the footnote style is not the only way to do this. Inline harvard-style refernces accomplish the same end, and so can various other citation methods. Any method which accomplishes this and is clear to most readers is perfectly acceptable. DES (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    • (Vote changed to no, above.) Both examples succeed in identifying which statement goes with which reference. The only difference I can see is the backlink, which should not make or break the case, as browsers are equipped with a back button, and the backlink's usability for both editor and reader degrades when multiple statments link to the same reference. Shimmin 14:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
    • The style, a numbered link, has little difference. The difference is apparent if you click on the two links (at present "[6]" and "[7]"); the first takes you to the citation information with a description of the source while the second takes you to the external web site. To find the matching citation ("References") entry for the second example you have to search for the same URL in all the citations. The present version of global cooling is a good example, particularly if someone decides to update one of the URLs. (SEWilco 20:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
    • You've convinced me. Vote changed above. Shimmin 20:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment

The two "style" documents have different wordings because both pages are "owned" by a select group of editors, and neither are interested in being consistent :-) Dan100 (Talk) 00:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Not fair, Dan. Wikipedia:Footnotes isn't a style guide, just a proposal. WP:CITE is an old guideline and the aim of its editors is precisely to make sure there's consistency across policy pages. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q6: Should Wikipedia:Footnotes be a guideline?

  • Should Wikipedia:Footnotes be considered a guideline? Because Wikipedia:Footnotes supports several styles (including numerical and Harvard style), this is a vote on the tools and not a vote on numerical or Harvard-style referencing.
"This page is a style guide for Wikipedia. The consensus of many editors formed 
the conventions described here. Wikipedia articles should heed these rules."
Yes, Footnotes is a guideline
  1. They increase reliability and make usage and updating easier. SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. As an idiot, any readable guide is helpful. nobs 18:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. this should be a guideline whilst I believe there will be a better future system, pages made with WP:FN should be easily and automatically updatable to use that system. The introduction of harvard references to WP:FN means I don't see a problem with the fact that the final reference formatting debate has not been settled between harvard and footnotes. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. It should be policy: a new version of Wikimedia should seperate article text from notes, with URLs forbidden in the article body and an automated footnote system installed with numbered references to be put in a seperate database field.
No, Footnotes is not a guideline
  1. Footnotes are immature technology; the last time I looked at the footnotes page, it was still printing the internal link URLs. Also, there needs to be a separation between sources and other footnotes as any dilution to the References/Sources concept would likely reduce the compliance in provision of sources. --David Woolley 07:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • What do you mean by an "internal link URL"? On the printable version of a page I'm only seeing URLs in the citations in References. One method used in some publications to separate Notes/Sources is to use numbered links for non-citation material and use (author-year) for sourcing. (SEWilco 08:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
      • I don't have time to find the page at the moment, but the page that describes the latest footnoting style still says that footnotes are generated by a hack using the URL linking technique to generate numbers, and a print preview on the page showed at least some to have been handled in that way with the print formatting appending the generated explicit wikipedia URL. This does area does seem to be moving target and the description of the mechanism may be out of date and some of the examples may be out of date, but that is indicative of the immaturity of the technology. In my view, it needs to be handled by the Wikimedia core before it is reasonable to use. More when I have time. --David Woolley 10:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
        • WP:FN has a section on how it works, so that may be the page which you are thinking of. I'm not seeing those URLs on Firefox with Monobook(default) skin. (SEWilco 03:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
      • PS Your example on this page also exhibits the problem on IE6. I suspect you may have a preference to prevent printing of inline URLs. --David Woolley 11:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
        • Do you see the URLs in a different Wikipedia skin, such as the default skin? (SEWilco 03:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
          • I'm using the default. I'm pretty sure the problem also shows up on the Mozilla version I use from home. Note that print preview is not the same as printable version, as raw URLs are only revealed by the print media style sheet and so don't show for visual media in the printable version, even though they show in print preview for both versions. Suppressing the links, for real direct URL references, might cause GFDL complications because it is removing information when creating the opaque copy, so it could be argued to be a different version. --David Woolley 10:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia is an immature technology. Wikipedia:Footnotes is the best current practice, and allows improvement as technology improves. (SEWilco 03:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
      • I disagree that the use of the current footnotes mechanism is best current practice, for the reasons given at the bottom. --David Woolley 10:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. No, it should not be a guideline. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Wikipedia:Footnotes is not in the guideline cat. I may think it should be, but am responding "no" to the above phrasing. Jkelly 17:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. It is not a guideline. It should not be one until there is demonstrable consensus that it will be accepted as a guideline. I would be prepared to support it if such a proposal was announced. Hiding talk 20:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • This is a measurement of consensus. Another measurement is that {{ref}} has over 6,000 pages using it (look at What_links_here and count how many 500-article pages there are). (SEWilco 03:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
      • The trouble with using that measurement is that as I understand it you ran a bot converting a lot of references, so it makes it an unfair basis of deciding consensus. Hiding talk 14:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
        • If the bot were running automatically there would be tens of thousands of articles. The bot has been involved in a small percentage of those articles. Pick ten at random and look at the history. The bot is a helper, with me checking each edit, as shown by my manually editing some articles (sometimes before SEWilcoBot due to a non-citation issue or due to something noticed in SEWilcoBot's preview). (SEWilco 16:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
        • If you don't bother looking and prefer to believe that the bot edited 6,000 articles, consider how many complaints there were about that. A handful of editors in two articles recently complained. (SEWilco 21:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
  5. No. "footnotes" is too specific to be a guideline. The cite sources page is the style guide page that deals with how to cite sources. Within that page, there is an explanation of different ways to cite sources, including footnotes. That is as it should be. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • In what way is WP:FN too specific? Guideline Wikipedia:No blank pages seems rather specific. And Wikipedia:Cite sources variety does not exclude WP:FN. The former lists several ways to cite sources, and WP:FN supports several of those ways, including numbered links and Harvard referencing. (SEWilco 03:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
  6. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check#Separate "Sources" namespace or subpage. — Jeandré, 2005-12-15t11:32z
  7. The footnote system is a very nice idea -- soem form of it should arguably be eventaully a best practice. That said, harvard style citations when properly done should always be acceptable. In any case the current impelementation is too complex and too fragile to be a guideline at this time, even if we want to eventually deprecate harvard-style referneces. DES (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  8. No, this should be handled by Mediawiki. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  9. Definitely no, any reasonable citation system should be acceptable, including the numerous varieties of footnotes, Harvard style, or in-text referencing. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  10. No. This implementation is a kludge that among other things, breaks the functionality of ordinary external links. There should be no preferred notation style until the MediaWiki developers see fit to grant us a better way to do footnotes. Shimmin 14:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
    • This implementation is intended as a best practice which will evolve. Ordinary external links still work just fine. And the conflict between the numbering has a solution whose code is in the testing phase: it's Autoincrement.php in the extensions module in CVS HEAD. (SEWilco 19:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
  11. Footnotes (as they are now) are a crude workaround. Not a permanent solution. Johnleemk | Talk 11:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  12. Needs extensive editing. Polaris999 22:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Unsure at this time
  1. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Dalbury(Talk) 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Andrewa 01:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC) More work is required before this decision should be made.
  4. --Allen3 talk 17:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. Courtland 00:32, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Q7: Should Wikipedia:Verifiability examples use Wikipedia:Footnotes?

Yes, update examples
  1. I didn't update them already because they're only text examples, but the current examples seem to be confusing at least one person. 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. probably yes; both harvard and footnote based systems should be demonstrated until that debate is settled. Mozzerati 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • There already are both numbered and Harvard examples. WP:FN supports numbered footnotes and Harvard styles, so the update would still show both numbered and Harvard style examples. (SEWilco 03:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
  3. Yes, teach the masses. JFW | T@lk 08:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. Yes, but keep the "simple" version for people who have no interest in leaping through hoops, only making referenced additions to articles. Dan100 (Talk) 00:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. Yes, use the new <ref></ref> system for the examples.
No, use current examples
  1. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
No, use seperate namspace
  1. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check#Separate "Sources" namespace or subpage. — Jeandré, 2005-12-15t11:32z
  2. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 17:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Unsure at this time
  1. Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Dalbury(Talk) 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Tempted to leave the "how" out of the "why" article altogether. Jkelly 17:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. At most one example, until technology is sufficiently mature. --David Woolley 23:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  5. Andrewa 01:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC) Leave them alone until consensus is reached on footnotes.
Provide footnote examples alongside current ones
  1. Seems the perfect compromise, and allows a consensus to develop. Hiding talk 20:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. Seems a good idea. The footnote system is a nice idea but has too many problems to be the primary or sole standard at this time. DES (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. Courtland 00:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. Let's emphasise that *any* citation style, provided the full details of the source are given, is currently acceptable, as Wikipedia lacks consensus on this. (Even this poll/debate itself shows that.) Johnleemk | Talk 11:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

  1. Among other recent sourcing problems, I've recently been blocked by an administrator due to my adding details about sources to articles, so some clarification seems to be needed. Kind of hard to add information when those in power push you out and delete reference information. (SEWilco 06:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
    My understanding is that the real issue was not the inclusion of full citations, but the change in the way that inline citations were handled. --David Woolley 07:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    It's my understanding that not the what, but the how is the reason for your block (or, more exactly, your bot account's block that seems to have affected you by accident), namely to edit without or even against consensus, and to be totally impervious to any meaningful discussion. --Stephan Schulz 17:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    It was me making changes, following WP:V and adding citation details. The bot was running as a helper, with me supervising it. Look at its contribution log's timing, and if you look at History of the articles it edits you can also see me sometimes editing the articles. (SEWilco 03:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
    Then perhaps it was a case of justice needing to be seen to be done. You are accountable to the community here. It's the community, not the rules, that make WIkipedia work. This can be very frustrating to those who'd like to have a leader (elected or otherwise) lay down the rules, but it's what is happening here. Andrewa 10:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. I'd like to see this page indicate the range of what is widely considered acceptable. I don't think we yet have strong consensus on that. I'd like the page to link to (specific versions of) a number of featured articles with as widely different styles as possible that are considered to pass muster. I suspect that minimal acceptable citation for an article about a pop group differs from minimal acceptable citation for an article about a war. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. When I first saw footnotes, I thought they were the answer to the problem of providing good inline references, but on reading the instructions I was soon disabused, and never tried them. The following need to be addressed before they become serious candidates, only one of which seems to have been partially addressed since:
    • They almost certainly need to be supported directly by Mediawiki, partly because we are always being told to use subst, because templates are expensive, and partly because it is the cleanest way to achieve the remaining points (the current implementation is a hack).
      • It is a best practice hack, and the technical details are hidden inside the template. All the templates are expected to be converted to whatever Mediawiki tools serve the purpose. (SEWilco 03:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
    • There need to be multiple referencing number spaces, to separate out real outbound links (there are some genuine uses, although these mainly tend to occur in fandom areas, whether technology or arts), sources and footnotes. Not separating sources from footnotes dilutes the sources concept and will lead to people thinking that one or two footnotes are enough.
      • Mediawiki support for this is under way. Some code has been written and being tested. (SEWilco 03:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
    • Multiple inline links for the same reference need to better supported, in particular, the user should not be required to provide anchor names or provide a tag at the full citation for each corresponding inline citation.
    • Even without inline links, the whole process is quite complex and the documentation not at all clear. People are used to using links in web pages, so try and simulate what they know in the new media (always a problem for new media - HTML has this problem as well), to migrate them to a better style it has to be made as easy to do as possible. I'm not sure how, however one approach might be full citation at first reference, repositioned (nroff divert) by the software. This would provide minimum overhead for single point citations, but still doesn't solve the multi-use problem.
    • The current implementation generates a real non-wiki link which gets handled appropriately for a real link, by having the full URL appended when printed, so that the URL is still available in offline copy. This messes up printing.
Currently, I think the best available technology is non-hyperlinked Harvard style, although that has some problems with the wider range of source material used, because it assumes both an author and a year, whereas a lot of web and news sources lack one or both (the author is the publisher as a corporate entity), which require some improvisation. Also, for multple papers within author and year, disambiguating letters still have to be maintained manually.
Having just inline square bracketted URLs is, whilst a compromise, slightly easier to convince people to use, although most articles probably are not traceable to any of their linked references, anyway. --David Woolley 00:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Past related discussions have taken place here: [8], [9], [10], [11]. (SEWilco 16:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Now is not the time

This is not the time to start trying to force editors to use footnotes. The Siegenthaler incident has highlighted Wikipedia's poor use of sources, and there's more interest than ever now in encouraging editors to provide sources for their edits, or at least for any that are even slightly contentious. What we have to concentrate on is persuading editors to provide any sources at all, rather than fussing about the precise form they have to come in, and especially not one as complicated as SEWilco's.

In any event, he is just wrong about embedded links providing less information than sources. When using a footnote system, you're meant to add the number after the sentence, then go to the Notes section to add the full citation information. When using embedded links, you add a numbered URL after the sentence, then go to the References section to add the full citation information. Therefore, both styles, when used correctly, provide exactly the same amount of information.

I find his edit warring about this very tiresome. It has been going on for months over multiples articles, policy pages, guidelines, the Village Pump, at least one RfC, and now RfAr. We are not going to stop editors from using embedded links. We're going to encourage their use, because we want to encourage any source citation at all. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Well said, Slim. Dan100 (Talk) 00:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia already accepts embedded links as a minimal source, just as a book title alone is accepted. It is expected that citations will be improved, just as it is expected that everything else in an article will be improved. (SEWilco 19:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC))
I have to agree that edit warring over format and requiring a certain format when there is no consensus is silly. But I would also have to say that going and changing a bare external link into a footnote with added title and author information is an obvious improvement. And SlimVirgin, if you don't wan't edit wars, why are you going around on articles with no controversy and removing that extra information that SEWilco's bot has added? I refuse to get dragged into this case/conflict and I would prefer we instead just separate out the issues and make common sense decisions. More information in citations is to be encouraged, though not required. Enough said. I don't agree with a lot of SEWilco's edits, but I am able to separate the person from the edits. When they make sense, we should support them. - Taxman Talk 20:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Taxman, I'm not removing information. I'm restoring embedded links that he removes. If he wants to add citation information to the References section, that'd be most welcome and he'll never find me removing it. But that's not what he wants. He wants Wikipedia to outlaw embedded links, and he's been editing warring on policy pages and guidelines for months, misrepresenting what one says on another, adding misleading information then edit warring to keep it in. WP:CITE says pages shouldn't be changed from one style to the other without consensus, and I'm asking that he stick to that. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

But who really cares over what style is used? As you said just above, it's not the issue. Doesn't seem worth doing anything about. Dan100 (Talk) 00:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The issue is that SEWilco has been changing WP:CITE, the MoS, and various other pages to give the impression that embedded links are not allowed. But they are allowed, and in fact are preferred by most editors because they're easy. We're trying to encourage editors to cite sources in whatever way they can, and if they want to do so via embedded links they ought not to be discouraged. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
No, I've not been saying they are "not allowed". I've been clarifying existing policy that URL-only citations are accepted as being minimalist citations which is all that some editors are able to provide, and it is expected that others will improve the citations. For example, see Village pump (policy)#Inline links discouraged in favor of more complete sources. (SEWilco 05:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC))
People are invited to see SlimVirgin's changes to WP:CITE, the MoS, and various other pages on the topic of embedded links. (SEWilco 08:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC))

Well, you seem to be saying that people shouldn't use them. But many editors think they're just fine. I think you should let this one go... Dan100 (Talk) 12:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

People should use more detailed methods if they can, but if a URL is all they can provide then we'll deal with that minimal contribution. Just as we deal with "George won the election" and fill in some details if we can find them. (SEWilco 08:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Let's get this straight

  1. The most vital thing is to get people to give sources.
  2. How they do it doesn't really matter, as long as it's there.
  3. Sure, let's make several systems/formats available, and let people use whatever they want.
  4. Edit warring over style is lame.
Hear hear. William M. Connolley 22:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC).

I suggest a page that lists all the different ways you can cite stuff, and then let people use whatever they damn well want to. Inline links, Harvard, APA, type it by hand, use templates, the various footnote systems, whatever! When people ask "can we trust Wikipedia?", the only thing that will re-assure them is sources. How the sources are presented is utterly irrelevant. Dan100 (Talk) 00:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's what WP:CITE currently does. It describes the different styles, then leaves it up to the editor. In the event of a dispute, the style used by the first contributor who used one is respected. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I suppose it does, upon close inspection. So all is right in the world :-) Dan100 (Talk) 12:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But there's another issue here... When people ask "can you trust Wikipedia?" the simple answer we should be giving is no. It's not even part of the project. Efforts by myself and others to propose a refereed online version over the years have met with very little support.
There are several good and important reasons for citing sources, but enhancing Wikipedia's reputation is not one of them IMO (despite what Wikipedia:Cite sources says). Sources save the time both of other editors and of readers who choose to investigate further.
Sabotage of various sorts notwithstanding, Wikipedia's quality and reputation are both surprisingly good IMO. Let's continue to work on the quality for its own sake. Better quality will mean better reputation as a by-product.
Perhaps ironically, I don't like inline URLs at all. I don't think we should have external links imbedded in the text, for many reasons. Andrewa 03:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I understand that the article rating system is coming soon. Then you'll be able to work towards "refereeing" stable article versions. Dan100 (Talk) 12:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is important for people to give sources. Good sources. Is a URL a source when the link goes dead? (diff showing cleanup of some 404 URLs which had been in a URL-only article) (diff showing cleanup of 404 URLs in text whose correct URL had been in Reference section)(SEWilco 08:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC))
Of course it's a source. Why would it cease to be one? We'd like all sources to be cited. An offline URL is no worse a source than an out-of-print and unobtainable book such as my old Grove. We assume good faith on the part of the contributor who did see it, or who does have a copy. Of course we'd prefer better sources, but sometimes they are all we have.
One of the strengths of Wikipedia is our ability to use many sources, including web pages and even hearsay. I think that the various approval systems all have as one of their goals to eliminate hearsay (among other things such as error!) from approved articles. But eliminating these sources from all articles (including stubs) is another question entirely, and IMO is counter to the very essence of Wikipedia. Andrewa 21:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)