Talk:Vermont
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There ought to be some mention of Vermont ranking roughly 5th for cost of rent and 35th for wages. In 2004, cost of rent had apparently fallen to | 22nd. Does standing above refer to a wage adjusted rent (affordability)? Need reference. |
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[edit] Possible Copyright Violation
A good deal of this article is also present here, although it is perfectly possible that the site instead copied from the Wikipedia article. Could someone track this down? RJC Talk 04:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- My first thought was mirror site. I looked at it, and it's got a random seven in brackets [7], like for a source, that I get when I try to copy and paste from Wikipedia. I'd say it's copied from here. Benjamin Scrīptum est - Fecī 14:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed - it's a parasite site, scraping wikipedia to provide "content" for ads. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 14:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Vermont Republic
While inserting some additional info into a currency ref, I found this ref to the Vermont Republic. Since becoming aware of the whole secession kerfuffle and its claims re state history, I've been looking back through my own texts and am finding no ref to a Vermont Republic per se. I'm aware of the Vermont Republic article but since the ref has bled over to the History section of Vermont I thought I'd start here. Where and if possible, would like to see articles improved to show/reflect historic usage. Present capitalization seems to be only traceable to this decade or perhaps in some earlier whimsical novels of the 20th century. My own personal collection of Vermont maps include 18th century and have no ref to a Vermont Republic or Republic of Vermont. Earliest text ref I have includes repro of map (from Bernard Romans, A Chorographical Map of the Northern Department of North America Amsterdam, 1780) that was from a first edition printed in New Haven in 1778; is the first known "to show Vermont as Vermont" and identifies area as State of Vermont, from a Rutland Historical Society Quarterly Vol. XII, No. 1, 1982. A second comes from J. Kevin Graffagnino, Director of the Vermont Historical Society, The Shaping of Vermont Vermont Heritage Press, 1983, p. 58, that shows Vermont as, coincidentally, the first individual state map to be published in the United States, dated on or before January 15, 1789 (based on diary entry 1/15/1789). The map cartouche text reads A Topographical Map of the State of Vermont and is, Most Humbly Dedicated To His Excellency Thomas Chittenden, Esq, Governor and Commander in Chief; The Honorable Council, and the Honorable the (sic) Representatives of said State by Col. William Blodgett, who had resided in Bennington (1786-1788) before moving to New Haven. Additionally, the Act passed at the 3rd Session of the Congress of the United States in Philadelpha, on December 6, 1790, contains only refs to a State of Vermont. Historic usage seems to be State of Vermont. Vermont Republic, as noted in Vermont Republic, does not make clear that the title is a modern development from the mid (at best) 20th century. PeterInVT (talk) 20:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- The state of Vermont is the correct terminology. There were overlapping claims with New Hampshire and New York. Neither of those states was too excited about sending soldiers to defend these claims which had persisted since colonial days. Vermont had always intended to join the union but wasn't invited because it wasn't an official colony and other states claimed it. There was no real pathway, at the time, to join the union. Vermont pioneered that path for the "other" 36 states that followed. It was never a serious republic with a standing army, ambassadors, customs, immigration, coinage, etc. The use of the word "Republic" is a combination of bravado and fantasy IMO. Student7 (talk) 22:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- That seems to be the case. There is no separation between the appellations New Connecticut and Vermont that I can find that provides for a state entity then known as the Vermont Republic. The latter appears to be a modern construct. PeterInVT (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I've continued to search for references to a Vermont Republic. While I am coming across a number of references to a republic, seeming to describe governance, there is no documentable Vermont Republic mentioned in any fashion in records of the time. Both constitutions (1777/ 1786) refer 9 and then 10 times to a "State of Vermont." There are a couple of references alternatively to a "Commonwealth of Vermont" but the preponderance of references were to "State of Vermont." Acts enabled under the constitution in place prior to admission to the United States were "hereby enacted by the General, Assembly of the State of Vermont." Oaths and allegiances under each constitution are made to the "State of Vermont." The constitution requires that the representative body be called "The General Assembly of the State of Vermont."
Given that the members of the Congress of the Confederation at the time were referred to in their documents, such as the Articles of Confederation, as "independent States," it would appear that this is a more accurate descriptive for Vermont's status during that time, that is, "the independent State of Vermont."
Perhaps conclusively, the act voted on to admit Vermont to the Union in the third session of the First Congress was titled "An Act for the admission of the State of Vermont into this Union," and begins, "The State of Vermont having petitioned the Congress to be admitted a member of the United States."
I'd like to get some discussion on what are, I believe to be, requisite changes to a number of articles pertaining to Vermont that must be made to accurately reflect the true history of Vermont. PeterInVT (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Hi PeterinVT. We find nearly no use of the term Vermont Republic or Repulic of Vermont existing in the period 1777–1791. Like you, I've seen use of the State of Vermont (the 1777 vellum manuscript of the constitution is title "The Constitution of Vermont," and in text refers to itself both as a state and a commonwealth, never a republic. The copper coins minted by Vermont come the closest, using a Latin passage "VERMONTS. RES. PUBLICA." While "RES. PUBLICA. easily translates as republic, it's worth noting that many state seals then, and now, include this latin passage. I've edited the Vermont Republic article a bit to try to clarify that Vermont was, more a republic by default than by design. CApitol3 (talk) 22:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you both. There's a good deal to consider here. CApitol13 - I've looked at the res republica translation issue and agree that while it easily translates, as republic, it seems that the translation also applies equally to commonwealth or state, the language used in the source documents available to us.
- I have another reference to a document that purports that Ethan Allen may have referred to Vermont as a republic in a letter. It's not exactly clear that the document referred to may be relied on since the recipient questions Allen's motives at the time. I'm awaiting some original history text referred to in this article that may clear up some of this contextually. I'd probably then include a paragraph outlining this area.
- I'm still pretty new to the process here, but is there some manner by which the more accurate title may by used while still protecting accessiblity to users looking up a modern colloquialism for the independent State of Vermont? PeterInVT (talk) 02:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
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- I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Ethan Allen did have an axe to grind. He did want to be sure that his competing claims with New York (Maybe not New Hampshire) would be valid. This might have been more likely in a permanently independent state! But I'm not sure how much he really spoke "for" early Vermont, particularly after the state had ratified a constitution and elected state officers. Student7 (talk) 03:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] School shooting
I agree, it not only doesn't need its own section but that it's not a major history item for the state of Vermont. Its presence only encourages others to do the same for posthumous fame. I recommend removal. - Denimadept (talk) 23:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not from Vermont, so I can't speak as to the event's local magnitude, but based on how it currently appears, I wouldn't oppose removal. On a related note, I think the same editor who added the section went back as an IP and re-added the section break after I removed it. I've done this twice, and it isn't obvious vandalism, so I'm not going to do it again, but it's something others should keep an eye on. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 23:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
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- I'm not from Vermont either. I'm speaking from the point of view that these events seem to be coming more frequently and I think that stomping on their publicity should help eliminate them. - Denimadept (talk) 23:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Meeting house
That picture on the main page is of the local church in Marlboro, which is referred to as the "meeting house". However, Town Meeting does not occur there, rather, it occurs in a different building to the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.15.90 (talk) 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] erased material entered by unregistered user
I reverted the new material. Footnotes are necessary. Please see WP:FOOT.
Other entries violated WP:POV.
The entry on Bernie Sanders is either here or in forked article.
Entry about Republic is discussed in Vermont Republic.
Our current article on Vermont is too long. We need to ensure entries are made in forked (subsidiary) articles before putting them here. In many cases the Vermont article is just a summary of the most important items.
Some of the material on unions could be useful. It must be footnoted however. We need to discuss, with other editors where it goes. What the unions support or don't support may be political and care should be taken so entries don't violate WP:POV. Entries should be well documented from the paper or respected online sources. Also, there may be issues of undue weight. (Quoting from memory:) "wikipedia is not a soapbox."
The material on High Bailiff was interesting. It is, however, covered in that article in a bit more detail. I just added a pointer to this in Government of Vermont.
It may be useful to get the opinion of someone on the discussion page prior to making extensive entries. Student7 (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Magic Mountain should be added
Magic Mountain should be added to the list of ski resorts because Magic Mountain was the birthplace of snowboarding -- even the Burton logo has a shape that is based on the Magic Mountain trails since he looked out his window and saw that the trails looked like his initials. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] History
This section has become a monster, in some cases overshadowing the "main" article which is supposedly the History of Vermont. I've merged everything up to the main article and now need to shorten this one. The Vermont article has been too long for a long time. This is an obvious place to chop. Student7 (talk) 01:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders is not the only Member of Congress who does not affiliate with a political party. Senator Lieberman is also an independent, albeit it an "Independent Democrat." It's just a name. As far as the Senate is concerned, there are two independent Senators even though BOTH Lieberman and Sanders are members of the Democratic Caucus. Epicadam (talk) 23:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Epicadam has a point that we ought not to ignore. Lieberman, you may recall, lost the Democratic primary some years back, forcing Democrats to back his opponent, the legal nominee. So he cannot be officially considered a Democratic Senator at least until he wins a Democratic nomination in the future. Therefore he is a member of "some other party", for all intents and purposes, an "independent." Student7 (talk) 00:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
