Talk:Vereniging MARTIJN

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Contents 1 Why? 2 the Dutch article 3 Activism 4 Legalize

[edit] Why?

why is this article on Wikipedia while some other organizations are not?

In the Dutch section, a discussion has started about this highly controversial item, because the association in fact advocates pedophilia. The article here is condensed from the Dutch, and the slant is towards a positive aproach in opening a discussion on the acceptability of pedophilia, thereby accepting that the outcome might be that p. should be accepted. P. is a taboo for the protection of children. Even Dutch organisations of homosexuals have objected to Martijn, their magazine and pedophilia. Apart from being a worried parent of two young sons, I think an encyclopedia is not the place for that discussion.

webnpATyahoo.com

Isee that the Dutch article is much longer. Over here, I don't see any 3rd-party sources for the article, and I can't find much about them in a quick Google search. The two options for this article are to find more sources, and make it more NPOV in the process, or to delete the article due to non-notability. Are there any good English-language articles on this topic? -Will Beback 20:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

A quick scan didn't help much. The Dutch article doesn't help either. I'll go with your last suggestion. - 83.81.228.218 20:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The notability of the organisation outside The Netherlands can of course be disputed, but the POV-claim has no basis at all. This article does not advocate anything and in fact states that MARTIJN is highly controversial in The Netherlands. Please don't confuse controversy with non-neutrality. Xyboi 14:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The article says that the group "advocates the acceptance of pedophilia ...". However, pedophilia is not illegal in the Netherlands, it's sex with children that is. I think the article should read "... Dutch association that advocates the legalization of sexual relationships between adults and children." But then, I think this article shouldn't be in Wikipedia in the first place. X10 23:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• ...that advocates the acceptance of pedophilia and legalization of sexual relationships between adults and children.

I think they are seeking social acceptance as well as legalization. I'm not sure if this group would meet our WP:ORG standards, but if you think it wouldn't then go ahead and AfD it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the Dutch article

The Dutch article can be read as propaganda for pedophilia, mostly. It mentions "four guidelines for responsible sex with children". Experts in the field know that such guidelines are use to comfort pedophiliacs, to relieve their conscience. What they do is exactly opposite to what is suggested here, where it's suggested pedophiliacs should talk about their feelings to "normal people" to adjust their belief systems and make them feel that sex with kids is not ok. The guidelines do exactly the opposite. These guidelines are publised on nl.wikipedia.org without much criticism. I have been criticizing this for the last year. This resulted in me being blocked from wikipedia for some time. Somehow, there's a group of people who turn back my changes within seconds, and who maintain the general tendency of the article as a pedophilia advertisement. Theres a similar problem with the article on pedophilia in the Dutch wikipedia. I think that in order to keep wikipedia proper and objective, pedophilia propaganda should not be present.

X10 10:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Activism

Can someone please remove the line on anti pedophilia activism by a group called "stop Martijn", organized by a group called "Nieuw Rechts"? This latter group is a neo nazi group that uses anti-pedophilia activism in order to find themselves in respectable company, for once. I suspect that the reason for mentioning this group, rather than mentioning the numerous other action groups and opponents, is to make opponents of child abusers look like fascists. X10 10:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the line. If there needs to be criticism in the article that's fine, but it should not be fake criticism that neo nazis have used for their own cause. X10 20:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. To claim criticism is only from other extreme minority groups is untrue and deceitful, it promotes pro-pedophilia activism, SqueakBox 20:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Listing a fringe group as the only opposition gives undue weight to the view that only fringe groups oppose this organization. Better to leave it out. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 21:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate. X10 21:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legalize

SqueakBox, you made a change from "acceptance" to "legalization of pedophilia and etc." Pedophilia is legal in the Netherlands, and it should be, I guess, if it means "being a pedophile". Unfortunately, these people don't have much of a choice. What's illegal is having sexual relationships with children. I think the best text would be to say "... that advocates the legalization of sexual relationships between adults and children". Shorter, easier, more correct.

I'm not sure this group should have an entry in Wikipedia in the first place, because they're tiny and nobody knows them really, but I'll leave that up to you. X10 06:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You are right; I changed it back to (roughly, I think) how it was. Your suggestion is good too; I'm not familiar with what exactly Martijn advocates or not. --Askild 15:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

They advocate that sex with minors should be legal. Most of the members have a history of active pedophilia, some are convicted child abusers. They are similar to NAMBLA, i.e. pro child abuse activists. X10 23:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)