Talk:Veluwemeer

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[edit] Title

Not to offend anybody, but the renaming of this lemma to "Lake Veluwe" seems slightly ill-advised. Obviously, the name of the lake is Veluwemeer, and "Lake Veluwe" just sounds catachrestic. A similar objection holds good for more lakes in the Netherlands, but here it is especially cogent. For one thing, Veluwe is a region, not a lake. For another, the text mentions Drontermeer, which now becomes highly inconsistent. To rename that lake to "Lake Dronter", by the way, would be to seriously misunderstand the morphology of that compound name.

To all this it might be objected that I am not a native speaker of English. True. I am not. This does not alleviate my astonishment, unfortunately. Bessel Dekker (talk) 15:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I very much agree, it makes no sense to translate this to English as "meer" is a part of the name and not a seperate word. Reverted this change and restored the Veluwemeer article.BabyNuke (talk) 16:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
That is the correct translation of the name into English. English wiki uses the correct translation. Otherwise, we can go into Dutch wiki and change the names into English names for, say, US lakes... but last time I checked, Lake Michigan is listed as "Michigansee" correctly translated in that wiki. So the translation of "Veluwemeer" is "Lake Veluwe". Rarelibra (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Be aware of the following:

  • here is a website referring to "Veluwe Lake"
  • here is a document referring to "Lake Veluwe"
  • here is an official US document referring to "Lake Veluwe"
  • here is a proper reference from Encyclopedia Britannica
  • here is another site referring to "Lake Veluwe"
  • here is another document from a university referring to "lake"
  • here is a document from the Netherlands with it translated as "lake"
  • here is another Netherlands website showing "lake"
  • Google Scholar comes up with 833 hits for "Lake Veluwe", showing the proper translation into English.

There is compelling evidence showing the translation into English as "Lake Veluwe". English wiki uses properly translated English names. Thank you. Rarelibra (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, though I still disagree as in common usage Lake Veluwe is VERY rare, even in English. Also notice how other language wikipedias do not translate Veluwemeer. I am also curious if you then believe Alpsee should become Lake Alp instead? BabyNuke (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • While quite agreeing with BabyNuke, as will be obvious from my previous post, I shall not, of course, spend much energy in restating my opinions or in renaming articles. This seems quite pointless to me, and not really worth the energy it takes.
  • BabyNuke's point about Alpsee is apt, while I am still waiting to see what English equivalent for "Drontermeer", mentioned above, is going to crop up.
  • I should, in addition, like to quote from Wikipedia:Proper names#Place names: As features on the landscape get smaller, the existence of English equivalents to local language names becomes less likely. It is sometimes customary, as with personal names, to transliterate these place names so that they are better understood by an English speaker. This is a practice that is losing favor to preserving local spelling to the extent possible. I am aware of counter-arguments to this.
  • One minor matter: "Michigansee" is of course the translation in German, not Dutch. Dutch has "Michiganmeer", which is correct, but does not prove much. Best regards, Bessel Dekker (talk) 17:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
As there doesn't appear to a consensus to move this to Lake Veluwe, the article should be placed back to Veluwemeer. -- User:Docu

User:Rarelibra quoted a series of "official" documents. They happen to be mostly publications that are written for scientists and engineers. Very few of "the rest of us' are relating to that. Please notice that only about 10 percent of the first 100 entries in google are in the Dutch language: [1]. The other 90 percent uses "Veluwemeer" in their English language documents. --VanBurenen (talk) 18:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The point is twofold - 1) when used in English, the usage is Lake Veluwe. This is English wiki. Therfore, the usage should be the English equivalent. If I look on a map in English and search on Lake Veluwe in English wiki, it should be to the English translated page. 2) if you persist in such, that means we broaden it out and change "Lago de Michigan" and "Lago di Michigan" and "Michigansee" and "Michiganmeer" etc in all the wikis back to "Lake Michigan" - and carry it out for all the English words. See the downward spiral? Rarelibra (talk) 19:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
What I see is you ENTIRELY ignoring the quite valid points the people here make and DELETING what is said on your talk page, rudely commenting that their opinion is apparantly "useless". I am considering putting you on the Wikiquette alerts list for simply ignoring the fact that half a dozen editors disagree with your standpoints and that you go as far as to delete their opinions from your talk page. BabyNuke (talk) 15:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't threaten me. I've provided quite a bit of documented proof of the name in English. Even from DUTCH websites. Rarelibra (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
You just don't reply to any arguments we bring up and behave in quite rude fashion, what do you expect from me? Support?
Further, and you know where this is from: Your move violated the GFDL, violating the copyrights of the contributors of the article. I don't care if you move the article using the move button, but if you persist in cut and paste moves you'll be blocked from editing.
I will revert all changes you've made to the Dutch lakes at least. Any subsequent attempt to change it back WITHOUT having reached consensus with the other editors I will not debate over further but act on. You alone do not make wikipedia. BabyNuke (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
If you take a closer look into the provided Dutch websites, you'd see, that both Veluwemeer and Lake Veluwe are mentioned, and one not more than the other. Also, one site refers to the Veluwe Lake bordersystem. Due to the way English use separators between words, it's difficult to define what's exactly meant by this: it's not the bordersystem of the Veluwe Lake, but the Lake bordersystem of the region Veluwe. 77.161.212.188 (talk) 18:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)