Template talk:Vegetable oils

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User:Cacycle removed Essential oils from the list. I've reverted it, pending a discussion here on whether they are or not. I've certainly never seen that point of view before, but am open to hearing about why it might be true. In the meantime, though, I've reverted the template back to including them. --Waitak 15:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This template is clearly about fats (i.e. triglycerides) for human consumption. Essential oils have nothing whatsoever in common whith this class of compounds or products. They are chemically unrelated, they have different properties (e.g. they are volatile in sharp contrast to oils), and they are used for completely different purposes. The only thing they share is the oil part in their name. But then you could also add crude oil to the template :-; Cacycle 16:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Since essential oils are extracted from plants (vegetable) and they are an organic liquid not miscible with water (oil), they meet the definition of Vegetable Oils. What you describe, triglycerides for human consumption, would include lard, which is an animal fat rather than a vegetable oil. But this template isn't "clearly about triglycerides for human consumption". It's also for things like rape oil, which is a triglyceride NOT for human consumption, and costmary oil, which is about half carvone (a terpenoid) and IS for human consumption.
Crude simply means unprocessed. The store brand "vegetable oil" sold in your local supermarket probably was once crude soybean oil. Anyone who's filled their tank lately, though, will tell you that petroleum doesn't grow on trees. ClairSamoht 21:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea where you picked up the idea that any "organic liquid not miscible with water" is an "oil". That is simply not true and sounds pretty strange to a chemist. This template is about triglycerides and related products and essential oils are definitely not related (beside a similarity in name). Cacycle 00:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Where did I pick up that idea? Well, while studying chemical engineering, I had to get a minor in chemistry. Then I worked in edible oils research at Central Soya. But original research isn't supposed to count at Wikipedia.
Check out Oil, and you'll see that it starts out "Oil, in a general sense, is a chemical compound that is not miscible with water, and is in a liquid state at ambient temperatures." Or check out WordNet.
Where did you get the idea that lard is a vegetable oil, and lemon oil is not? ClairSamoht 06:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It's obvious that there's not yet agreement on this. Any suggestions for how we get there from here? I'm no chemist, so I can't argue from any position of expertise. My reasoning is - they're liquids extracted from plants (by distillation, in this case), and they're commonly called oils, so it's reasonable to put them in the category of "oils extracted from parts of plants". I think that's true even if the word "oil" doesn't fit the technical criteria that a chemist would apply to oils. I think that Wikipedia:Common names supports this position. One comment, though - the template is not about fats for human consumption. It's about oils that are extracted from parts of plants, no matter what they're used for or how they're extracted. It explicitly does not cover animal fats. --Waitak 03:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

In very vague usage, a chemist might call any liquid immiscible with water an oil, but this is a descriptive term more than a definitive one. But in my mind, and it seems in the minds of several of those above, the term "vegetable oil" embraces only plant-derived triglycerides, and not plant-derived terpenoids. A more authoritative opinion would be that of someone with experience in the food industry, though, and no so much that of a chemist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.136.204.17 (talk • contribs • WHOIS) .
I can certainly see the point - if someone said the term "vegetable oil" to me, I wouldn't think of essential oils. Are there any other terms that we could use that aren't too clunky?
  • Plant oils
  • Plant-derived oils
  • Oils from plants
  • Oils from plant sources
  • Leave it as "Vegetable oils" but put an explanatory note like "Substances derived from plants, that are not miscible with water, and that are liquid at room temperature" at the bottom
  • ...?
Is there any of these that you'd all be happy with? Any other ideas? There certainly is a sense in which pressed vegetable oils (triglycerides), essential oils and macerated oils belong in some list together. So what's the list called? --Waitak 03:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Essential oils should NOT be referred to as vegetable oils IMHO, because the latter are almost always fatty-acid based. From the intro to the vegetable oil article: Like all fats, vegetable oils are esters of glycerin and a varying blend of fatty acids, ... That pretty much rules out things like citral or limonene, doesn't it?! I think the creator of this template needs to decide if they want only vegetable oils, in which case that name is fine, or whether they want the broader class of plant-derived oils that includes things like citral. If the latter, then the "components" section should perhaps be broader too, including terpene and terpenoid. Walkerma 03:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
So what do you suppose it should be called? "Non-mineral, non-animal oils". The vegetable oil article is flat-out wrong. ClairSamoht 03:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Vegetable oils are not my area, but I must admit I think of rapeseed or olive oil. I don't consider essential oils (which I do work with) as vegetable oils in the usual sense. I think the term plant-derived oils was OK for them. I see two viable options:

  1. Call it vegetable oils, and omit the essential oils
  2. Call it plant derived oils, and include the essential oils

Walkerma 06:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage dictionary has three definitions for Vegetable, used as an adjective.
  • Of, relating to, or derived from plants or a plant.
  • Suggestive of or resembling a plant.
  • Growing or multiplying like plants.
Perhaps you might explain what semantic difference you discern in using "plant derived" instead of "vegetable". What I can see is incompleteness as your first option, and clumsiness as your second option. What is unviable about the adjective "vegetable" to mean what 99 44/100% of all Wikipedia users think it means? ClairSamoht 06:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added the template back into Essential oils, following the discussion here. Thanks to all for the productive discussion. Waitak 02:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I object. If you want to have a template about plant products then create that. If you want a template about vegetable oils (as it was obviously intended) then remove essential oils. Cacycle 04:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, being the person who created it, I have a certain amount of authority on "what was obviously intended", which I've stated clearly above. The intention is to have a template that groups articles that deal with substances that
  • are extracted from plants,
  • are not miscible with water,
  • are liquid at room temperature
We've just had an in-depth discussion, in good faith, on how to name this concept, motivated primarily by an attempt to accomodate you. You chose to drop out of the discussion after the first day, and now object to the outcome. If you'd like to explain why we should find that more reasonable than it appears, you're welcome to do so. Waitak 05:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)