Talk:Veganism/Archive 2

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Contents

Why Was My Article Removed?

I started an article on Vegan food at restaurants last night, and linked it to this article. It was by no means done. Why was it removed? --Doc Holliday 13:33, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why it was deleted. It was called Vegan Food At Restaurants, and User:Cimon avaro deleted it with the reason "restaurant menu, complete with phone-number after each item". Perhaps he misunderstood the list. Personally I'm not sure if the article should exist, since Wikipedia doesn't usually carry "guide" or "how to" articles. I have to warn you that people will probably try to delete it - but this should be discussed on the Wikipedia:Votes for deletion page. Cimon shouldn't have acted unilaterally. If it gets deleted again without notice, please post a note on Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion. Rhobite 23:45, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Sushi question; "See also" question

1. Is vegetable sushi really an example of "imaginative" vegan cooking? I was pretty sure that sushi is sometimes vegetable based anyway (of course sometimes fish too), and that the whole "sushi equals raw fish" thing was a myth. Maybe I'm wrong tho.

Well, "real" sushi is always primarily rice, raw fish, and vinegar. The California roll isn't exactly real sushi. AlbertCahalan 00:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Raw fish is sashimi. Sushi is rice, seaweed and vinegar, with any of a variety of extra ingredients. — Chameleon 01:21, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sushi was developed as a way to pickle raw fish. Rather than full immersion in a liquid, vinegar-soaked rice was used. Plain raw fish is thus not sushi; you are correct that it is sashimi. So-called "sushi" that is lacking in any of the three basic ingredients (raw fish, rice, vinegar) is in some sense not really sushi. Of course, raw fish may be a little disturbing, and the California roll (using cooked crab) is rather popular. Seaweed is definitely not required; sometimes a very thin omelet is used instead of seaweed. AlbertCahalan 03:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

2. Does anyone else think there are too many links in the "See also" section? Many of the radical activist links could be removed; there should be a few to the main ALF/AR pages from here, but most of the links seem like they should be on the "See also" section of those two pages. E.g., GANDALF trial seems like it could easily go to the ALF page. Zach (t) 22:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

You are right. The word "imaginative" is silly and should go. — Chameleon 22:56, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

No one has disagreed, so I just removed the following "See also" links. Zach (wv) (t) 15:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Animal Liberation Front Supporters Group -- just the ALF link is enough
Vegetarianism -- several links in the article
SHAC -- links to animal testing and Animal Liberation Front are enough
GANDALF trial -- plenty of links from ALF/AR pages
Barry Horne -- ditto
Linda McCartney -- vegetarian
Christian Vegetarian Society -- vegetarian

Criticism section

I've made the last paragraph invisible — the one beginning: "Sometimes vegans can be perceived as believing themselves to be morally superior to non-vegans ..." — because it amounted to a personal essay, but the previous paragraphs are also problematic. For example, is it true that some vegans, qua vegans, either have no sex, or have decided not to reproduce? This whole section needs to be firmed up with sources, rather than some critics say X, but some supporters say Y. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:13, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. However, although unsourced, that paragraph was quite balanced. — Chameleon 21:26, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're getting way too carried away in demanding sources. For example, one place has "author Joanne Stepaniak argues that". Well, there you go. That's the source. Similarly, "Joanne Stepaniak (author of The Vegan Sourcebook)" is a fine source. I can only guess wildly at what you might be expecting, perhaps the ISBN number and page number? Relax. The text becomes less readable if it gets filled with wordy references. Nobody is making new and off-the-wall claims that appear to be false. AlbertCahalan 01:10, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It wasn't clear where she had said it. Did she say it in The Vegan Sourcebook? If so, the text should make that clear. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:49, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

It's not just a question of sources; it wasn't encyclopedic in the way it was written, and nor is the rest of the criticism section. First sentence: "Sometimes vegans can be perceived as believing themselves to be morally superior to non-vegans; this is sometimes genuinely the case, and often not." Sometimes? Perceived by whom? What does 'genuinely the case' refer to, and what does 'genuinely' add to 'the case'? In what sense is it only sometimes the case, but often not the case? And who's claiming this?

Perceived by just about every vegan-hater that I have come across, and there are a lot of them. "Genuinely the case" means that some vegans are arrogant (we'd be a rather saintly group if none of us were). Of course, all this stuff should have citations, but as it stands it's a fairly good summary. — Chameleon 23:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'll second this. My limited sampling of vegan behavior does show what appears to be an arrogant holier-than-thou attitude. I would be surprised if someone would recognize this in himself or in others with similar feelings. If you are not a vegan for health or religious reasons, how can you be sure that you don't have this attitude yourself? You can not be an unbiased observer of yourself. You might argue that such an attitude is necessary and good, but then you should expect resentment from those you look down upon. AlbertCahalan 01:10, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, be surprised then, because in the above para I say that some vegans are arrogant. — Chameleon 01:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's the problem with the article, Albert. It shouldn't be written on the basis of individual samplings of vegan behavior. It should be encyclopedic, and that means sticking to WP policies, particularly Wikipedia:No original research. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:49, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Are we saying that some vegans are arrogant in the sense that they believe the vegan lifestyle is better than others? Maybe it's just me, but resenting those around one for causing terrible suffering and leaving less for the rest of the world (i.e. leading an arrogant lifestyle) hardly makes one arrogant. Of course there are some who call themselves vegan and believe that they as individuals are better than others - that is true of some members of any group; ipso facto, the mention of this in the veganism article alone arbitrarily picks on veganism particularly and should therefore be excluded. And by the way, being a vegan for religious or health reasons does not exempt one from being arrogant; on the contrary, these reasons expressly utilize arrogance (to believe in a particular extra-worldly religion is to pick one arbitrary view over another in accordance with nothing but the desires of one's self, and being vegan for health reasons is obviously primarily self-interested). It is less arrogant to be a vegan for reasons primarily concerning the world through an attempt at objective experience of that world; pardon me for seeming arrogant in my doctrine of removing greater degrees of arrogance, but I'm sure you'll see the inability of anybody asserting anything to avoid that kind of arrogance. Daniel 11:32, 26 Aug 2005
It's anecdotal, and written as though it's just one person's observation. There are published criticisms out there that would be more interesting and informative; for example, I've often read that veganism is perceived by the British intelligence community, among others, as an ideology that almost necessarily leads to animal-rights activism (i.e. terrorism in their terms). It's nonsense, but it's a view that's often repeated, and if that kind of article could be tracked down, it would make for a good criticism section. I'm currently doing a copy edit, and don't have time to look again until next week, but I'll try to find something then. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:18, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, it's anecdotal, but it reflects a commonly-expressed opinion. It's tolerable until we have full citations. — Chameleon 01:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And "Some of the most violent incidents in the history of social protest have in fact been instigated by those seeking to disseminate ostensibly vegan principles." That's a bizarre claim, which needs to be attributed to a credible source; and it couldn't be attributed, because it's demonstrably false. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:10, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Wo, that's pretty wacky. I don't think it was there the last time I looked at the article, or I would have removed it. — Chameleon 23:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That would be removing true facts. AlbertCahalan 00:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Then back it up with examples and references. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:49, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
I hate being the one to break the news to you, but this is real. There is a long history of pro-animal (and thus vegan) groups supporting violence. Google will tell you more, but anyway... PETA donated $1500 to Earth Liberation Front after ELF had commited violent crimes. PETA gave $70000 to Rodney Coronado, an arsonist who attacked a university research lab. PETA speakers have encouraged violent acts toward fast-food places and laboratories. More details: http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/2339 AlbertCahalan 00:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I hate to break it to you, but animal rights types are rather fluffy and nonviolent on the whole. Their frequent pacifism contrasts sharply with the general population's frequent support for violence. Also, hatred for animal rights leads people to expand the usual definition of violence to include damage to inanimate objects, which obscures the matter somewhat. On the other side, huge violence is commited against animals daily (and you can't criticise extending "violence" to cover hurting and killing animals if you are willing to let it be extended to damaging objects) with relatively few reprisals from animal rights people.
Also, the sentence in the article doesn't say that animal rights people use violence in their protests, but that "violent incidents in [...] social protest have [...] been instigated by those [...] disseminat[ing] [...] vegan principles." The most violent incidents in social protest are clearly those that occur when the police charge at demonstrations. I've been hit by a truncheon myself for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think the police are mostly vegan. — Chameleon 01:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"There is a long history of pro-animal (and thus vegan) groups supporting violence." - intertesting progression... and assumption. The ALF's own guidelines states that members do not have to be vegan, or even vegetarian to be members. Also, many pro-animal activists, such as Linda McCartney, are vegetarian, not vegan.

"PETA gave $70000 to Rodney Coronado, an arsonist who attacked a university research lab." - should more acurately read PETA paid the legal fees of Rodney (or Rod) Coronado, convicted arsonist who in 1992 set fire to and/or damaged two Michigan State university research labs, specializing in animal toxicology and fur farming research. If paying his legal fees was a criminal act, as implied by AlbertCahalan, then why haven't PETA been shutdown and convicted of providing material support for terrorism? Simon - 12:15, 15 Aug 2005

The Center for Consumer Freedom, referred to above, is a disinformation organization, and its "reports" should be treated accordingly. See http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom. — JC 01:34, 3 Sept 2005

Whoa there. I don't think we can say that vegans are inherently violent, pacifist or arrogant. Speaking as a vegan I can attest that becoming a vegan takes a certain amount of open-mindedness but I wouldn't say that every vegan is open minded. I don't think most vegans are in general any more arrogant in their moral positions than anyone else with a strong belief, rational or not. I don't see anything a section of the christianity article that says how stubborn and arrogant christians are, but I've met a lot of stubborn christians. I agree with talking about how SOME groups that advocate veganism ALSO advocate violence but keep anecdotes and generalizations out. Wesman83

Photograph

I'd like to find a factory-farming photograph to illustrate the page with, to show why vegans become vegans. Before I put one up, will anyone object to this as POV? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:55, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Good photograph. Others available here. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:24, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
I object for at least two reasons:
  • Such photos belong on the factory farming page. After all, if you merely object to factory farming, you will gladly go hunting and bring home a deer for your freezer. Add a link to factory farming if it isn't already here.
  • Many of these photos show accidents and illegal factory farming. It's a major POV problem to suggest that such farming is normal. If the photo shows something for which the farm operators could get arrested or fined, you're misleading the reader. The same goes for rare accidents. (note: "thousands" is still rare when dealing with "billions")
I guess I can sum this up by saying that we don't put photos of baseball bat murder victims on the baseball bat page, and certainly not on the sport page.
AlbertCahalan 00:11, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Baseball doesn't necessarily entail the murder of people with baseball bats, whereas farming for food necessarily involves the killing of captive animals.
I was expecting something like a picture of a diseased and bleeding cow being beaten with a 2x4 while being dragged into a dumpster. There are a few photos like that floating around and being misrepresented as common animal treatment. AlbertCahalan 03:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As a matter of interest, how do you know that this isn't common treatment? Do you work in a slaughterhouse? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:03, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Economically, especially when you consider public relations and worker retention, it makes more sense to do otherwise. AlbertCahalan 05:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't follow you. Worker turnover is notoriously high in slaughterhouses, and economically, it makes more sense to treat the animals badly. You either have evidence that these photographs are not representative, or you don't. You might want to ask yourself why you've never seen photographs of animals in slaughterhouses being treated well. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:04, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Suppose a place is really rough with the animals. Fines and higher than average worker turnover will raise the cost of doing business. Customers (fast food places for example) will be complaining about protesters and refusing to pay the higher costs. If the workers aren't leaving and the customers aren't complaining about protesters, then maybe the conditions aren't so offensive after all. Ok, you might still be bothered, but most people are fine with the situation. As for the photos being representative: Not a lot of interest in photos of normal everyday goings on, is there? See your regular nightly news program, none of which is about normal stuff. AlbertCahalan 16:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The place doesn't get fined if the Government doesn't know about it. As was mentioned before, slaughterhouses have one of the highest worker turnover rates in the nation. Fast food places do have protestors, just not enough, because most people are ignorant. Most people are only "fine" with the situation because they are ignorant.Canaen 08:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
As for the argument that the photographs are examples of illegal abuse or accidents, farmers don't accidentally put sows in farrowing crates to give birth; or accidentally place thousands of chickens in dark sheds; or accidentally lock calves into boxes shortly after birth so that they see no sunlight and produce pale meat. These practices are not illegal in most countries.
I'm pretty sure most places don't allow calves not being able to move. As for the sunlight, you are describing a typical office cube farm full of human employees. Also note that pigs can get sunburns. AlbertCahalan 03:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
LOL! You're joking, surely. And most countries do allow such treatment of calves. This is how veal is produced. The calves can move but not much. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:03, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
On an activist site which you'd expect to give the most negative view of things, take a look at bits of the UK law. The whole EU is similar. I can't find a US law specific to veal, but the USDA description doesn't sound all that harsh. According to the USDA, "the calves can stand, stretch, groom themselves and lay down in a natural position". AlbertCahalan 05:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


USDA law isn't always followed, which is why factory farms always have animal cruelty lawsuits against them. I've seen veal crates with my own eyes, and the calves can not stretch, lay down naturally, and often can't stand upright. Get your facts straight.Canaen 08:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Very few people in Western countries obtain the bulk or even a significant proportion of their meat diet from deers they have personally shot, so the issue of hunting is something of a red herring. The overwhelming majority of people in the West get all their meat and dairy products from factory-farmed sources, and photographs of factory-farmed animals are factually representative of the practises vegans want to avoid financing. That and animal testing. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:28, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
I think that lots of photos of filling vegan meals would make far more sense. Besides being more on-topic for this article, you'd have an opportunity to show something beyond beans, salad, tofu (beans), fruit, miso (beans), rice cakes, and beans. Find some foods with lots of balanced protein, moderatly high fat, and no gas-causing bahavior. (that is, something other than beans) Find something well-suited to the Atkins diet. Take pictures. AlbertCahalan 03:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss the article with you, Albert, if you're willing to be serious and well-informed, but not if you're being facetious. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:03, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite serious in general. Try to ignore any humor if you dislike mixing serious discussions with humor. I find that humor makes an otherwise dry argument much more readable. AlbertCahalan 05:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Albert, your analogy is not good. That photo is from the United States Department of Agriculture. It was not taken by some ALF militant breaking into an illegal farm at night and taking pics. There is no reason to think that the situation depicted in the photo is in any way atypical of modern farming. It is a good example of what vegans are against. — Chameleon 01:42, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The analogy is good; it just doesn't apply to the picture you chose. I hadn't seen your choice yet. BTW, the most disturbing thing about the photo is that the worker does not have a face mask to protect against dust. The second most disturbing thing is that the low light levels may discriminate against older workers. I still think the photo belongs on the factory farming page though. The chickens aren't vegans, are they? Pictures of vegan meals would be more appropriate here. AlbertCahalan 02:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't see personal opinions getting us anywhere. That photo is of one of the better factory farms, apparently. I've seen far worse.Canaen 08:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we could show a non-leather shoe or someone being kind to an animal to illistrate veganism?
I do not think that most vegan food illistrates veganism well, as vegan food is eaten by everyone and would not flash VEGAN to non-vegans (I think its funny when people ask what I eat saying 'nothing is vegan'...have they ever had, say, an apple?).
On the other hand, a picture of an amazing vegan pastry would be a great illustration!
I don't think animal torture is a good picture because that is what veganism is NOT about. Veganism is NOT about being critical, anti-, negative, ascetic, self-denying, restricting, and limiting. It is about celebrating life and loving food, caring for animals and oneself, and finding out about new and different foods and increasing the variety of caring and ingredients in one's life. Hyacinth 05:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Great, but I challenge you to find things that are more meat-like than an apple. You can use beans only once. AlbertCahalan 05:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think you understood what I said. Hyacinth 22:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Tofu (beans - 1) Tempeh (Nuts and other nifty things) Seitan ("wheat-meat") are all meat substitutes widely-used. Seitan's much better than tofu, and doesn't give you gas (of course, it varies by body...).Canaen 08:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

***To those of you who think such photos depict a small handful of "illegal" farms-- take it from someone with a degree in animal science (the science of animal production for food and fiber), these practices are TYPICAL and LEGAL. There are very few protections in place for the treatment of farm animals. In fact, I can tell you from personal experience with LEGITIMATE large, well-known farms that such pictures only scratch the surface of the horrors that actually occur, on a daily basis, on these farms. It is par for the course--not an anomoly.

Unsigned comment from 65.24.246.99 4:00 pm C August 23, 2005
I'll second what the anonymous user wrote.Canaen 08:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the photos on this page need to be changed. A picture of fruit is one-dimensional and uninformative. What about one of these or something along these lines? They both show a whole range of different foods, and could possibly even surprise a lot of people. --Mumblingmynah 21:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I used to be a Vegan...

...But then I sold my Chevy Vega and bought a Honda Civic.

There will be a slight pause for the laughter to subside. :) Wahkeenah 30 June 2005 21:11 (UTC)

information about health consequences

I came here looking for some information about health consequences of this life style and found nothing of value. This article is filled with faulty argumentation. The band wagon fallacy seems especially popular...or so say many. Clearly a lack of meat consumption dulls the mind. After all, Einstein was a veggie and a dumb ass. Maybe I could add that informal observation after Dr. Astrand's.

"Dr. Per-Olaf Astrand conducted an informal study of diet and endurance using nine highly trained athletes, changing their diet every three days" Informal as they were all equipped with party hats? Changing the diets every three days? Should that translate to me tripling my stamina if I change to a vegan diet for three days?

"The health consequence of consuming the white blood cells of other species suffering breast infections is not known, but many argue that it cannot be a positive one."

"Many people contend that these substances are dangerous, but their effect on human health has not been investigated, and no-one reliably knows what the long-term effects of consuming these artificial substances are."

"Vegans enjoy almost as wide a range of foods as animal product–eaters do" If that is true then the range of products that can be derived from animal sources must be small or substitutes can be created artificially in which case I like to draw attention to the previous paragraph.

--TheBigD 8 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)

For such vehement protest to goodness, what does that make you?

Eating Disorders

I'd like to add a (referenced, of course) paragraph about the connection between veganism and eating disorders such as anorexia and orthorexia nervosa, especially among young women. Any objections? 68.21.180.106 15:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

RESPONSE: Veganism does not CAUSE eating disorders. Some people use veganism to try to mask the fact that they already have an eating disorder. Please understand the difference between correlation and causation. Unsigned comment from 65.24.246.99 3:43 pm C August 23, 2005

In reality, any unbalanced diet can lead to problems, and there is certainly evidence of dietary deficiencies related to veganism in the medical literature. I think a neutral, referenced section would be helpful, as well as delineate the differences between a proper and unbalanced vegan diet. --Viriditas | Talk 03:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I was not suggesting that a vegan diet causes eating disorders. I know from personal experience as well as medical literature (do a search on Medline) that anorexia sufferers often use a vegan diet to support and justify low caloric intake. Anorexia and politically/socially motivated diets are also correlated with an obsession about the correctness of one's diet [1], known as orthorexia. This information needs to be addressed in order to fully inform a reader about the costs and benefits of a vegan lifestyle. I am not saying that a nutritionally adequate vegan diet is impossible. Indeed, I think that more information should be added about balancing a vegan diet. Skinwalker 21:59, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is heavily biased in favor of a vegan lifestyle. It does not adequately present the nutritional dangers of veganism, including the promotion of eating disorders among young women. The article uses outdated and misrepresented scientific articles to promote it's point of view, especially in the vegan vs. omnivore diet section.

(Is there a specific study backing eating disorders to veganism or are you just pulling that from your ass?)

Additionally, the criticism section is plagued with quotes such as:

"Many vegans find themselves struggling with anger at being misrepresented, or with having to be consistently nice to people who are rude, or even aggressively hostile to them; it can be hard to maintain a compassionate outlook under such circumstances..."

Quotes such as this indicate a clear "call-and-response"-sort of bickering, which does nothing to enlighten (and probably repels) a disinterested reader. I will submit several incremental updates to this article, and I of course invite criticism and (logical!) revision of the points I make. 68.21.1.203 06:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

So why didn't you just get rid of that stuff you quote? Anyway, I got rid of it, because you're right, it was un-encyclopaedic (not to mention a bit strange). I cannot comment on that issue about eating disorders because I've never heard of that being a problem related to veganism, perhaps you could put some info in the entry with references? Anything else you can be specific about that needs to be changed because it's biased? As much as I am probably biased myself, being vegan, I can see that it doesn't help if this entry is biased because it interferes with the facts. I believe that the facts are more than capable of doing the arguing for me. --Qirex 02:24:04, 2005-08-14 (UTC)


If you could provide real evidence, this might be considered. There are no real nutritional dangers regarding veganism - only the same nutritional dangers anyone faces if they choose to eat an unbalanced diet. Every nutrient needed for a healthy human life can be obtained from easily-obtainable plant-foods. There is absolutely no nutritional or medical evidence that supports the consumption of animal-derived products. Feel free to email me at alex@sometimes.org if you have specific questions or require sources for my information. --Sometimes 00:46:00, 2005-08-15 (EST)

Lest I be accused of sockpuppetry, I have edited this page under 128.138.44.xxx and 68.21.xxx.xxx addresses, and have created an account now. I appended the NPOV tag several weeks ago, and I don't think the page is ready to have it removed, though Qirex's edits have helped. Nutritional disorders that are unique to vegitarianism and veganism certainly do exist, and are a problem particularly in the developing world. Specifically, unbalanced vegan diets can lead to vitamin D and B12 deficiencies, among others. The lack of vitamin B12 is especially pernicious to infants, who suffer long-term neurological damage if they do not obtain enough B12 from breastmilk if the mother is adhering to a strict vegan diet. There are few if any vegetable sources for B12, and supplements are of course animal-derived. Yeast-based sources are usually inadequate unless consumed in large and impractical amounts. Can anyone comment on bacterially derived B12 supplements?

To begin moving towards a consensus, I suggest we strengthen the sections regarding the balancing of a vegan diet to give more specific recommendations on nutritional adequacy, and to discuss possible dangers of nutritional adequacy. Someone more knowledgeable than I should write the adequacy section. I will write the section on dangers. As discussed above, I intend to submit a section on the correlation between vegan diets and eating disorders. Also, there are many baseless and unreferenced statements on the health benefits of a vegan diet, and they often confuse vegan and vegitarian diets. Finally, there are two sections that I will delete outright: quotations and cycling stamina. The quotations section is tantamount to propaganda, and does not illuminate a disinterested reader. The quotes should be, if at all, on the quoted person's wiki. The cycling stamina study simply shows that carbohydrates are better utilized for rapid energy production than fats and proteins, is quite outdated, and does not follow the subjets for any length of time that is long enough to establish dietary efficacy.

I hope we can avoid any histrionics from either side. I'll admit, this talk page has some fairly obnoxious entries from meat-eaters, which really don't help. My goal is to provide an NPOV entry that honestly addresses both the pros and cons of a vegan lifestyle, and the page is far from that at the moment. Skinwalker 22:18, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Since the quotes have nothing to do with veganism in particular, the removal was appropriate. However, whenever you remove content, it is helpful to include the content (if its brief) on talk, in the edit summary, or as a link to the history. That way, people can go back and add it to another page. I have moved the quotes to the Wikiquote entry on Vegetarianism. I suggest that others follow this link to take a look at the history. And yes, we need information about B12 supplements derived from cyanocobalamin. Regarding yeast-based sources, products like "Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula" appear to be sufficient, as one serving provides twice the recommended intake for the average adult. [2][3].--Viriditas | Talk 04:01, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I very much appreciate this sentiment. As a vegan, I checked out this article at least in part to keep abreast of what seem to be legitimate (albeit contentious) health concerns related to my diet. A more encyclopaedic, ie. evidence-based, treatment of these concerns will help this entry by replacing some of the guesswork and moralizing from both 'sides' with facts, at least to the degree that facts are available. Two2the8 10:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

"A vegan is a person who avoids the ingestion or use of animal products"

That leaves a vegan free to kill animals as long as he doesn't use it afterwards. So as long as all you are doing is satisfying your blood lust you're in the clear?

"A vegan is a person who avoids the ingestion or use of animal products, or the use of animals for any purpose that benefits humans to the detriment of animals, such as in a rodeo or circus, sport hunting, or in laboratory testing."
Something like that. I didn't post it because it didn't seem concise enough to me, especially not for the first sentence of the article. I wanted to throw the word "exploitation" in there somewhere, but trying to stick to NPOV. --Mumblingmynah 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't "satisfying your bloodlust" be using the animal? --Equal 19:26, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

comments...

I'm a proud omnivoire, with some vegan friends and family, and I'd say that as of right now this article is pretty damn NPOV and also very good. Kudos to those responsible. ZacharyS 16:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Use of Omnivore is a wrong term

I find that omnivore is used almost regularly without realising its meaning. omnivore, herbivore or carnivore refers to the species' ability or inability to eat a specific food. it does not talk about one particular or a bunch of animals (be it humans or dogs) deviating from the pattern. if a pet dog does eat rice it does not make the whole species of dogs as herbivorous. and if a cow is somehow made to eat flesh the bovine family does not become carnivore or omnivore. similarly even if a majority of humans do eat vegetables/meat alone they don't become herbivores/carnivores respectively. the human species still remains omnivore irrespective of personal preferences. i find the use of omnivore to refer to non-vegetarians totally wrong here and in other articles. A better term would be "non-vegetarian". Idleguy 04:13, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Well put. I agree with you. --Mumblingmynah 04:54, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. If eating both animal and plant products involved a deviation from the norm or a massive lifestyle choice, then I could see coining a word (or even appropriating an analogous one from biology) for non-vegans and non-vegetarians, but quite frankly, we "omnivores" 'are' normal people... if vegans are insulted with the idea that they are outside the norm, that's on them... but they manifestly are. That's not a value judgement, any more than there's a value judgement in statistics. Somebody of above average intelligence is outside the norm. Somebody of above average anything is outside the norm.
The human body contains adaptations that enable us to digest both meat and plant produce... we are neither fully optimized for either, thus, we are omnivores. Starkly and simply put, it's like using the word "humanoid" to distinguish the rest of us from amputees. I could see a mention of the term as being slang, if it's something that many vegans use... perhaps including it in context, in quotes, for an example of usage... but using it within the body of the encyclopedia article strikes me as wrong. I have moved to replace mentions of "omnivore" with other terms that preserve the meaning of the sentence, though I left one mention that seemed to be a direct quote by a researcher.Alexandra Erin 02:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

...or "normal people"

Your comments aren't helping anyone, you know. --Mumblingmynah 21:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Based on ThrBigD's other (unsigned) comments on this page, I believe he was trying to be insulting. That's why I'm insulted. --Mumblingmynah 03:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

As much as I admire your courage to deviate from the opinions of the majority I find your propensity to see the worst in peoples' actions depressing. "Normal" just means not deviating very much from the average. There is no value judgement in that. So you go on deviating from the norm with a clear conscience and I will too.

Cholesterols

I removed this humbug: "The high levels of cholesterol found in dairy and egg products are now accepted by the majority of the medical community to be dangerous. Cholesterol is only found in animal products; a vegan diet has zero cholesterol. Less traditional, low fat milks, which are becoming more and more popular, do not contain very much cholesterol, but there are very few cheeses which can make the same claim." From Low density lipoprotein article: "It is not the cholesterol that is bad; it is instead how and where it is being transported, and in what amounts over time." If you are gong to write something sensible about this subject, start with saturated fats instead. -Hapsiainen 09:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Pound for pound, the highest amount of fat (100%) cholestrol is found in ghee a form of clarified butter. If anything practically veg includes cheese and butter which are x times more harmful than any meat products. Idleguy 11:59, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This article is about veganism, not vegetarianism, so dairy products are not part of their diet. My point was that you can't measure healthyness of a food by its amount of cholesterol. You should look instead at the amount of saturated and trans fats. And that you don't get too much fats as a whole, of course. -Hapsiainen 12:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Made some harsh cuts

I nixed the following paragraph from the article. To me, it reads like a personal essay, merely replacing "I" with "some vegans" to make it seem a bit more encyclopedic.

Of course, label reading and looking up ingredients becomes habitual, and many vegans express their pleasure at understanding just what is going into or onto their bodies and come to regard the idea of not doing so as rather horrifying. It is often referred to as an empowering experience. Many vegans find the experience broadens their understanding of how the food, cosmetics, and clothing industries work and leads them into environmental and human rights activism. It is often the case that outside observers have difficulty in understanding that vegans do not feel deprived, that they are not practising a form of aeseticism, and that they find pleasure in their veganism. Non-vegans often express the idea that vegans are "disciplined" in their choices, but vegans tend to feel that they have simply adopted new habits. Because many people believe vegans to be practising a form of self-denial, and because self-denial is often seen as morally superior, many others assume that vegans feel morally superior to them. When vegans do not actually feel this way, the misunderstanding often causes difficulties in social interaction, and many vegans feel that it is best not to talk about their veganism for fear that those around them will feel implicitly criticised.

It was also smack in the middle of a "common criticisms" section, making it seem even more personal and defensive. I can see how some elements could be useful elsewhere in the article, but I'm not entirely certain. - Plastic Editor

This article read like a PETA pamphlet...

...so I made more cuts. I mean, there were sections in there consisting only of opinion and preference. Others railed on about things that meat and dairy have been "linked to" - obviously, specific studies have "linked" many, many things together, but they aren't rock-solid encylopedia fodder. Not saying they were wrong, but the scientific jury is still out on a lot of this stuff. Just because it might fit your cause, don't go believing EVERYTHING that suggests your diet is the way, the truth and the light.

Then there was just dumb stuff like this:

Vegans enjoy almost as wide a range of foods as animal product–eaters do, since almost any dish containing animal products can be adapted by substituting vegan ingredients.

Well, if you substitute, say, Ener-G Egg-Replacer for eggs in some cookies, yeah - essentially the same thing. For many others, however, you're altering a meal beyond recognition. Even subbing tempeh for bacon in a BLT, you've created an entirely new dish. In fact, non-vegetarians can consume not only the meat dish, but the vegan alternative, so a non-vegetarian's options have actually increased w/ the vegans. Result - it evens out.

So again, as a former teenage vegan animal rights activist, I know the desire to spread your gospel as much as possible. But recognize that we're making an encyclopedia here. There are some things that you believe to be very, very significant, but they don't belong in an encyclopedia because it's not the job of Wikipedia to change somebody's diet. This article is merely to inform somebody what veganism is, and give a vague idea of what motivates people to take it up. An *overview*, not an alternative to The Vegan Sourcebook.

I quite appreciate your trimming the fat off here... I've been wanting to make this article shorter for a while now. A lot of the information in it is redundant, or unnecessarily in-depth, or borders on a "how-to" guide. Might I suggest that you leave some of the external links used as references if they're still relevant? That way people can follow up and read more if they want to, and the article remains well-cited. --Mumblingmynah 04:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"Sentience" needs context

'Sentient' means very different things to animal rights folks than to other folks. I'm off to school, but later today will add some context explaining this dichotomy...unless someone beats me to it (feel free). R 17:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"Sentience" means the capacity to feel, "sapience" means intelligence or self-awareness. They're often confused. Is that what you're referring to? --Mumblingmynah 21:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Copy edit

I've done another copy edit as there were a few spelling mistakes, inlined external links, and a very long TOC, so I combined some sections, and also deleted some original research. Plastic Editor has objected on my talk page to the removal of this:

The most prominant [sic] opposition to veganism on ethical grounds states the long human history of consuming animal products; many believe that certain body types have evolved consuming meat and dairy, and thus absorb certain nutrients best via these sources. The requirement for B-12, a vitamin humans can only derive from meat or dairy, is seen as evidence of this. Thus, the use of animals for certain purposes in a balanced diet is "only natural", a notion hotly contested by many vegans and vegetarians.

It needs a source and preferably a medical one, as it's a medical claim. The "certain body types" thing sounds odd, and it's not an objection on ethical grounds; and the "only natural" quote needs a citation. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Cyclist study

Skinwalker removed this, and it's been removed before, but shouldn't have been, in my view, because it has a properly cited, credible reference. Skinwalker, you referred me to the NPOV section of the talk page, but I can't see anything there about this study. What problem do you see with it? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that carbohydrates are used by the body for energy much more efficiently than proteins or fats. Carbs give over twice the energy that protein or fat does, so it is not surprising that an endurance athlete would perform better on a high-carb diet during aerobic exercise. As it is currently incorporated into the article, this study is used to justify dietary efficacy. This study does not follow its subjects for anywhere near enough time to establish the long-term superiority of a vegan diet, and it makes some fairly unscientific claims about "increasing the stamina of athletes 300 percent" and abolishing the "protein myth", etc. Also, the article is quite outdated (1968) and was published in a fairly low profile nutritional journal. It's sort of a red herring, and I'm sure there are better, more recent, and more scientific papers that can be found to support (or refute) the nutritional claims in this wiki. Skinwalker 23:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, these are all fair points. Give me ten minutes to go back and read it again. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:27, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I see what you mean, but I've just googled him and he's referred to very highly on exercise and diet websites e.g. the "legendary" Dr. X etc. We can't argue with the findings because that would be OR but it seems a shame to delete it too. Could we perhaps find another study, either showing the opposite, or explaining his findings? SlimVirgin (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)