Talk:Veganism/Archive10

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Contents 1 Lindsay Allen 2 pros & cons 3 GA review 3.1 New Reviewer 4 Demographics 5 Health 5.1 Article is part of the MOS 5.2 Article says editors should avoid "distilling" criticism 5.3 Second Opinion 5.4 Conclusion 6 Veganism and Dietary Supplements 7 Lindsay Allen once and for all 7.1 Should Lindsay Allen's study be included in the article? 7.1.1 Yes, include 7.1.2 No, exclude 7.2 Should Lindsay Allen's comments be included in the article? 7.2.1 Yes, include 7.2.2 No, exclude 8 Deletions from Pregnancy and Childhood section 9 Please Bring Pros & Cons section back..... 10 Example 11 Anon's dispute

[edit] Lindsay Allen

I removed this passage because it was deliberately given out of context. Allen was not studying vegan children in the developed world. Rather, she studied starving children in the developing world. "The British Dietetic Association said (Allen's) study looked at impoverished, rural children with a poor background diet low in essential nutrients such as zinc, B12 and iron, and its findings were not applicable to vegan children in the developed world. 'There is no evidence that our vegan and vegetarian children in this country suffer impaired development,' a spokeswoman for the association said." [1] Abe Froman 19:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Putting that passage back in unchanged is deliberately POV. Lindsay Allen is one scientist, as against the entire British Dietetic Association of Britain. Only reporting the loose cannon's opinion more than adequately shows the POV slant of the editor inserting this passage. Abe Froman 19:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I have reverted you. Please do not remove this information. It is sourced, and our text includes an NPOV version of her complete view by combining the two citations. This has been discussed. Peace.Lsi john 19:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that you have not read what you deleted. It is not just text from ONE source. It also includes her 'clarification'. Peace.Lsi john 19:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Abe: I would call your attention to this part: "Allen later clarified that she believes it is possible to add back the missing nutrients and believes that well-managed vegan diets, plus supplements and fortified foods, are probably healthier for adults, and even many children, than the average US or UK diet" Peace.Lsi john 19:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you also notice the subjects of Allen's study were starving Kenyan children, and the study itself was funded by the National Cattlemen's Beef Association? Including this passage at all is absurd. The two populations, western children in developed countries and forcibly starved African children, are not comparable. The study itself is compromised by it's source of funding. Defending this passage is only embarrassing you. Abe Froman 19:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion, but this article is not. The Vegsource link you added almost certainly fails WP:V, and I am going to remove it based on that unless others object. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Vegsource is used throughout this article in citations other than the pregnancy passage. Are you going to chop the article in half, as well? The article from Vegsource quotes Registered Dieticians. The Vegsource cites have been on this page prior to the dispute over the pregnancy section. I object to its tendentious removal. Abe Froman 19:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Vegsource is only used one other time, to link to a pamphlet produced by the Physician's Committee For Responsible Medicine. Maybe I'm missing the half of the article that relies on vegsource - please enlighten me as to any other time it is used as a source. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What a great example of selective enforcement of WP:V. I will be sure to point it out to others as an example in the future. Abe Froman 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. Where, other than the two times I noted, is vegsource cited in the article? Cheers, Skinwalker 20:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Abe, if you can provide a verifiable link for the UK source, I will support its inclusion in the article. Also, if you can show me in the Allen study that it only included 'starving Kenyan children' then I would support amending the Allen statement. Otherwise starving Kenyan children, sounds a bit dramatic. Peace.Lsi john 19:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. I added the cite directly to The Guardian to address the U.K. Dieticians Association quote.

2. Allen's study straight-out admits she only studied already-malnourished Kenyan children. From Allen's own study: "Supplemental meat (60–85 g/d), milk (200–250 mL/d) or energy (isocaloric with the meat and milk, 240–300 kcal/d) were randomly assigned to 555 undernourished school children aged 5–14 y in a rural malaria-endemic area of Kenya, at one school meal daily for one school year." [2]

Did anyone even bother reading her study before defending it? Abe Froman 19:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. The Guardian does not provide verifiability.
2. Undernourished does not equate to starving.

I repeat my above offer of support. Peace.Lsi john 20:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please add citations/references correctly/consistently. Thanks. Peace.Lsi john 20:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Starving is synonymous with undernourished. See this entry in the American Heritage Dictionary. [3] . The Guardian sought out the British Dietetic Association for quotation. The citation does not need to directly link to the BDA. Abe Froman 20:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The guardian article is verifiable and can be used. I disagree, however, that undernourished=starving. We need to stick to the terms used by our sources as closely as possible. Cheers, Skinwalker 20:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Starving might be considered synonymous with mal-nourished, but not undernourished.

Also I did not say that the guardian isn't verifiable, I said that article in the Guardian article doesn't provide sources, so its claims aren't (easily) verified. I also didn't say I would fight it, I said in order to support it I would need something I could verify.

I have corrected the 'ref' entries. Peace.Lsi john 20:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I also 're CAPITALIZED' the word UNLESS in the Allen statement. She was very emphatic about the UNLESS in her clarification. I am not positive how to represent that in our article, and I won't dispute anyone who changes it again. I put it back for clarification as to why it was in CAPS. Peace.Lsi john 20:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Allen's study uses "undernourished" to describe the children studied. Since the dictionary defines starving as "To suffer or die from extreme or prolonged lack of food" I think it fits in this context. Abe Froman 20:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to your opinion, but its both original research and incorrect. I could make a better case for you, but it would still be Original Research. I won't attempt to debate the reasons that you're wrong. Peace.Lsi john 20:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Since when is the Dictionary WP:OR? Abe Froman 20:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stick very closely to what the reliable sources actually say. There's been some inaccurate paraphrasing in this section. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• There is now entirely too much coverage for a single study. I recommend going back to the version which has been discussed and generally accepted here. While I sympathize with Abe's pro-vegan POV, I cannot support doubling the coverage for a single study in order to nullify its findings. Peace.Lsi john 21:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

We actually get all the facts on the page, that Allen's study concerns starving Kenyans, and was funded by a Cattlemen Trade Association, and all of a sudden "there is too much coverage." On the contrary, I think the coverage is just getting right. Abe Froman 21:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Lsi John, this is an example of highly misleading reporting. We presented this as:

In 2005, Professor Lindsay Allen, of the US Agricultural Research Service, stated that sufficient studies have been conducted to conclude that women, who avoid all animal foods, give birth to small babies that grow very slowly and are, often permanently, developmentally retarded. Allen went on to say that it is unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans UNLESS they were well-informed about how to add back the missing nutrients through supplements or fortified foods. Allen later clarified that she believes it is possible to add back the missing nutrients and believes that well-managed vegan diets, plus supplements and fortified foods, are probably healthier for adults, and even many children, than the average US or UK diet.

We then find out, thanks to Abe, that the study was conducted on malnourished children in Africa, who had some meat added to their diet and whose health improved. Arguably, adding anything to their diets would have improved their health, and the ethics of deliberately not feeding the control group for two years doesn't bear thinking about. For us not to provide that context would be misleading to the point of deliberate distortion. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• SV.. first.. pfhthththt, stick to the source.. its 'undernourished' not malnourished, and I don't see anywhere that suggests they "didn't feed" the children for 2 years. And they were in school and had lunches. I think its unlikely that the children in this study are the same children with flies in their eyes, and ribs showing, who are up for 'TV adoption' by Sally Struthers. I have no resistance at all to properly citing sources and properly reflecting their context. And, lets not get overly dramatic here. Peace.Lsi john 21:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

My resistance is related to 'forcibly' editing an article in a contested area, without discussing it, and continuing to make more changes. That results in a bully-version, or edit warring. We were doing fairly well here until now. Peace.Lsi john 21:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What distinction are you drawing between malnourished and under-nourished? And the study does say they didn't feed the control group anything extra for two years.

They take a bunch of African school kids who they admit are malnourished, and they feed some of them better for two years, while deliberately retaining a poor diet for one group of them, on behalf of the American cattlemen's association? The ethics committee must have been asleep the day that was approved. Not to mention the totally unscientific methodology — (a) They're conducting this study for one meal a day only during school hours, and therefore have no idea what the kids are actually eating overall; (b) they have no way of taking into account whether illness is playing a role, which they admit themselves (the area was noted for malaria); and worst of all, (c) they had no control group being fed a standard, high-quality, vegan diet, yet they extrapolated the results to conclude that all vegan diets are bad. But the African kids weren't on a "vegan" diet — they were just starving. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly agree with all of that, but this version[4] satisfies my concerns over sourcing. Cheers, Skinwalker 22:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this Allen and her research deserves, at best, minimal mention in this article. Allen's study was not about veganism, and the main connection is about a mis-reporting of her comments. Her position amounts to saying that pregnant and nursing vegans have an obligation to supplement properly. This particular position is the same as that of the vegan society. Nobody really questions it. I previously removed the content about Allen from the article, as described at Talk:Veganism/Archive08#pregnancies_section_cleanup. I do not believe it is deserving of inclusion in this article. Kellen^T 01:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This study, which is of minimal utility or importance to the article, is currently given two large paragraphs. Why don't we just kill it? The first paragraph already covers the "vegan pregnancies are fine, just watch out for nutrients XYZ" sentiment. I'd support removing it altogether. Alternately, we can pare it down to two sentences: "Lindsay Allen's study on malnourished African children led her to conclude blah. The British Veg Society disputes this study, saying blahblah." Cheers, Skinwalker 17:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I support removal, but we'll need a clear decision by the editors of this page so that when it gets added to the article again in the future, we can point to this decision as justification for excluding it. The BBC and other articles misreporting Allen's comments are the first results when searching for "vegan unethical" or "veganism unethical," which is why this keeps coming up. Kellen^T 17:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Lindsay Allen's statements cannot be in this article without the presently included information on her starving research subjects, and reactions from the wider Dietetic community. Abe Froman 18:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we know, thanks. Here's a clear statement, then: I support the removal of Allen's study on the grounds that it is a poor source whose main point is already duplicated in the article by better citations. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It's been in the article for some time, and it's only now that we find out it was financed by the American Cattlemen's Association, and that it didn't in fact show what she claimed it did, that people want to remove it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If you'll read the earlier discussions of Allen and her study, you'll see that its funders were known and mentioned. Allen's comments have been added to the article and then removed multiple times. The re-additions were written by people who obviously hadn't read the clearer and more correct versions that already had been removed. Kellen^T 06:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we've known about this for a while. It's been a troll-magnet ever since it went into the article. I believe Kellen's version mentioned the source of funding. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

So it looks like we have a consensus to remove the section on Lindsay Allen. I'm going to go ahead and yank it. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pros & cons

I think this section is unnecessary and should be removed or properly integrated into the health section. There is no reason for this to be a distinct section. Kellen^T 03:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree. "pros and cons" have nothing to do in an encyclopedia.CyrilleDunant 08:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition, looking at the ref for Refsums disease[5] I see the cure is "The primary treatment for ARD is to restrict or avoid foods that contain phytanic acid, including dairy products; beef and lamb; and fatty fish such as tuna, cod, and haddock. " - how is a vegan going to achieve that :) the article also doesn't contain the word vegan! sbandrews (t) 11:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC) oops, silly me, its supposed to be a 'pro' thing right? Well, you could probably write a very long list of those, I don't realy see why Refsum needs to be given such prominence... sbandrews (t) 11:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

From 5 minutes worth of searching about Refsum's disease, I have learned that it is genetic. Congenital. Being vegan will not stop you from having such disorders, though I gather that a vegan diet will help someone who has had it from birth manage it. These references seem a little, um, creatively presented. I have no problem with deleting this section. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved from article, please integrate into health sections if appropriate, otherwise let it die.

• very low risk of having diabetes mellitus ^[1]
• reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease ^[2], coronary heart disease ^[3].
• health risks of the possibly low intakes of long-chain n−3 fatty acids and vitamin B₁₂. However, these two components can be supplemented by conscious consumption of pulses, legumes, whole grain cereals, green leaf vegetables and seaweeds ^{[2], [4], [5]}.
• Increased flatulence due to greater intake of polysaccharides.
• Greater bowl movement frequency due to increased fibre intake.

Kellen^T 17:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason that I list Refsum disease is that I saw a TV show in which the patient parents are desperately seeking help from the public. This disease is considered incurable in some countries, which has been curable in others. Vegan diet is the best way of treating the disease which is supported by the reference cited. If not, please cite a reference to support your opinion. I will reverse the pros and cons section, as you perhaps are not the person who is deciding which should be in and which should be out, unless wiki standard is addressed to prevent doing so. The reason that I put this section is for the busy people who does not have enough time to read all but the distinction content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.64.47.202 (talk • contribs) 01:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

We have an intro paragraph for people who are busy; pro & con sections are not encyclopedic. I've read Refsum's disease, which indicates that people who suffer from this disease should have a "phytanic acid-restricted diet," which is not the same as a vegan diet. As such, it is not appropriate for this page. Kellen^T 01:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Pros and Cons section and would ask that it is not replac back into the article until such time as a consensus is reached as to whether or not it should be included in the article. I am not removing it because I believe it should not be there, but simply to to try and avert an edit war. And so that it can be discussed here for a decision to be made. Thank you ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 02:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Why does the pros and cons section keep being added - it violates so many policies it's not even funny.--danielfolsom 02:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Which is why I have also removed it before you did, and asked the IP user not to add it again, and to discuss it on here. I have asked on the talk page of the IP user for them to discuss on here also. Though it is a bit hard keeping up with the different IP addresses being used, to try and leave messages for them!♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 02:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The lack of response is why I asked the question again :-D I'm not blaming you I'm actually asking the user--danielfolsom 02:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I didn't think you were blaming me, just asking the question to the user! Sorry if my reply came across as if I thought you were somehow blaming me!! The Internet can be such fun! ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 02:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

This is how the article, as of July 11, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria: This is well-referenced, and broad article that is reasonably well-written. I'm going to put this on hold as I have some specific corrections, suggestions and questions:

1. Well written?:

• Lead should expand a little on the animal rights and environmental reasons for veganism, since this is a major part of the article.
• Subsection titles should not repeat the article title, as in "Vegan cuisine"
• "many vegans avoid supporting" - "Many" is close to weasel words, simpler to say "vegans do not support" or "vegan organisations do not support"?
• It would be good to state simply at the beginning of the health section that vegan diets which are high in fruit and vegetables would meet or exceed the recommended fruit and vegetable intakes.
• Human hormones are natural molecules, since a hormone is defined as a natural signaling molecule, therefore "naturally occurring human hormones" is redundant, just say "human hormones"
• In the health section "The association states" - which association?
• Is the statement "The Vegan Society and Vegan Outreach, and others, recommend that vegans either consistently eat foods fortified with B12 or take a B12 supplement" really so contentious that it requires SIX citations?
• "and if a person has not eaten more than the daily needed amount of B12 then they may not have the stores." The stores to do what? This sentence is a little confusing.
• Reference for ""with appropriate food choices, vegan diets can be adequate for children at all ages."" needs to be formatted to inline style, presently an external link.

2. Factually accurate?:

• Is it the case that "not ethical for humans to use animals in any way they see fit" or just to use animals in ways contrary to the animals' interests?
• I think Singer also advocates Veganism on environmental grounds and as a necessary moral response to world hunger. Perhaps check if this is a simplification of his arguments?
• Growth hormones are naturally-occurring molecules and antibiotics are frequently natural products. It is therefore incorrect to describe these as "artificial substances"

3. Broad in coverage?:

• Does not mention if vegans see medicines as animal products, important since animal experimentation is involved in the approval process of all drugs.
• Religious reasons for Veganism are given very cursory coverage.
• In the Demographics section, the numbers of Buddhists/Jains/Hindus might be mentioned if these religions follow diets that an be described as vegan.

4. Neutral point of view?:

• Yes.

5. Article stability?

• The edits of 222.67.184.73 are a concern, will watch what happens over the next few days.

6. Images?:

• All copyrights are OK, just a comment that the use of gestation crate picture is controversial in other articles, might cause article instability here.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status. Tim Vickers 21:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

For reference, this is related to Wikipedia:Good_article_candidates#Food_and_nutrition. Kellen^T 18:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding:

Does not mention if vegans see medicines as animal products, important since animal experimentation is involved in the approval process of all drugs.

There's not much written on this, though it's the subject of this vegsource article. My experience with this is that it's a fringe issue insofar as vegans would generally support non-animal testing, but recognize that they lack other options when it comes to standard medicines. If one is being legalistic, this would qualify as an exception covered by the "as far as practical and practicable" clause in the Vegan Society definition. Kellen^T 19:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That might be a good point to add, since animal testing is a very common issue raised in discussions about animal rights. This article is otherwise rather over-focussed on the food aspects of the Vegan lifestyle. Tim Vickers 19:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It would take me a while to dig up a good reference, but I'm pretty sure the FDA mandates in vivo animal testing as part of pre-clinical development for any new drug application. You would be hard pressed to find any drug on the market in the US or Europe that was not tested on animals at some point in its development. Like Kellen said, though, this may fall under the practical and practicable clause, and I'm not sure its worth pointing out. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Reviewer

Tim Vickers has asked to withdraw as Good Article Nominee reviewer, and requested that I finish in his place. Sadly, I don't bring with me the excellent credentials he has in the area of biochemistry, but I'm patient and I try to be fair. I see no reason to change the suggestions he has made; and I will base my judgement on the progress made toward the milestones he has set forth. In the short term (the next two days) I'll be rather more involved in another review that I promised to finish by weekend, and then I promise to pay attention here. Drop any questions you may have here or on my talk page. Take care. — Gosgood 03:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah me. Time sure flies. It is the eighteenth today; technically the 'On Hold' spell will expire and turn into a decision of some sort. Here is my draft. I'll be posting it here later today. [Now posted] Take care. — Gosgood 14:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

My informal pronouncement: good job. I learned stuff. More importantly, casual browsers of this article will also come away with important information. While my most arch comments concern scope and stability, I'm aware that the good Pendleton724 did a surprise nomination, and kindly told none of you about it, so the beds weren't made, the windows still needed cleaning, and the editors here were stumbling around in bathrobes and slippers. That notwithstanding, I conducted the review (at least my third of it) as if you had requested it. I'd like to thank Tim Vickers| for doing most of the work, and the editors here for informing and educating me. I suppose, if some of you take issue with all of this, you may take this to Good Article Review forum. By the way, I do think much work has to be done for a Featured Article nomination: the items I marked with the grey icon are primarily, in my humble opinion, Feature article work areas. Take care — Gosgood 15:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Commencing: 2007-07-11
• Completed: 2007-07-18
• Nominator: Pendleton724 on 21:02 (UTC), 2007-06-12
• Initial Reviewer: Tim Vickers
• Final Reviewer: Gosgood
• Based on:

1. 1. Revision 144651569 as edited by Christopher Mann McKay (Talk | contribs) at 15:32, 14 July 2007. (Vickers, Osgood. retained for reference)
   2. Revision 145344347 as edited by Skinwalker (Talk | contribs) at 21:21, 17 July 2007 (Approval based on this version)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. It is well written. In this respect...	Agree. The prose is readable, free of weasel words, and technical or specialized meanings of common phrases are explained or wikilinked. The images have been given fixed widths, which overrides user preferences.
	(a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and	Agree. I have found no significant or persistent failures in use of English grammar.
	(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.	Guarded Agreement Layout: Neutral Images are staggered, alternating left and right, which can sandwich text. Images also have specific widths that have been set. This overrides user settings, an unfriendly gesture. These explicit widths should be removed Jargon: Approve Technical terms are wikilinked to supporting articles, or defined in place. Words to avoid: Approve A minor instance: countless products (hyperbole); List incorporation: Not Applicable: There are no lists outside of automatically generated standard lists Fiction: Not applicable This article is not about fictional characters or settings. Lead: Neutral The lead does not forewarn the reader on the significant health benefit/risk presentation which forms a large part of this article. Recommendations elsewhere recall that this lead promises a philosophy and lifestyle article and suggest that this health benefit/risk consideration be consolidated, with the more detailed information transferred to supporting, and more technically inclined, articles on nutrition.
	2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:	Guardedly Agree. The article is heavily referenced in the area of health benefits and risks. It is less well sourced, and developed, on the extent of the movement (Demographics)
	(a) provides references to sources used;	Agree. Most references are available in online, as well as printed form, so the casual reader can readily continue an exploration of the topic.
	(b) cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, preferably using inline citations for longer articles; and	Agree. The article is heavily cited, with some statements back by three or more published, printed and editorially reviewed sources.
	(c) contains no original research.	Agree.
	3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:	Neutral.. I fear that the nutrition debate has hampered the quality of coverage (the 'Health Benefit/Risk Calculation', largely played out in Health); there are concepts established in the lead concerning philosophy and lifestyle which do not get much development in the article, mainly by the crowding presence of the 'Health Benefit/Risk Calculation'.
	(a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and	Neutral. The lead section establishes what the major aspects of a topic are, and the balance of the article develops these aspects. This particular lead identifies veganism as a "philosophy and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose." Since the use of animals for food is dominant in almost all human cultures, it is not surprising that this article considers the health benefits and risks of the vegan lifestyle, both to the individual (benefits and risk to diet and nutrition) and to the society (environmental impact of the vegan movement). But nutrition does not cover all the scope that philosophy and lifestyle establishes. Are there religious aspects? Are certain cultures more susceptible to the movement than others? Some particulars: To what extent is the Vegan lifestyle a global movement? Would I find practitioners in Rio de Janiero, Nairobi, or Kathmandu? Or is the lifestyle confined to populations of North American and European descent, as the current set of demographics data suggest? What is the scope of the title 'Vegan'? Does one have to join a formal organization for the right to apply the name to oneself, or does one simply apply it once certain precepts of the lifestyle are followed. To what extent are there variations among those precepts? Can one identify 'schools' of Vegan thought?  :What this battery of questions is leading to is the feeling that the Vegan Cultural Setting topic has received a short shrift. In this area, I am echoing Tim Vickers observation on whether "...the numbers of Buddhists/Jains/Hindus might be mentioned..." because we both, (I think), would like to understand the extent of the movement. At present, the article leaves me with only a vague impression that veganism is a phenomenon among populations of North American or European ancestry, but a Featured Wikipedia article would summarize that for me (providing references) and a Good Wikipedia article would strive to clarify that question (and, perhaps, would not go about the most apt way, a factor that distingusihes Good from Featured articles). The lead parenthetically distinguishes Veganism as a strict or pure [form of] vegetarianism, and the 'Definition' section draws the distinction that the British founders of the Vegan Society wished to make concerning their movement and the broader vegetarian one. But as the references hint, there are other Vegan societies, and one wonders to what extent that these various societies also reflect variation in the Vegan philosophy. In footnote (16), to the posed question: "Is refined sugar vegan?" come the rejoinder: " It depends on how you define 'vegan.'" To this end, I look to this article to sort out possible definitions of veganism, part of expanding on the 'philsophy' component advanced in the lead paragraph.
	(b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).	Neutral. I believe the tendency of this article to overly explore the 'Health Benefit/Risk Calculation' of the vegan lifestyle has caused the introduction of technical information that might better serve other articles, and that it presently obscures the article's remit, as established by the lead section. I'll confine myself to what seems to have been a particularly apt example from article revision 144651569 (July 14): Professor Lindsay Allen's work on Kenyan children had been a recent addition to the article and has since been removed. It was controversal with respect to the Health/Risk Calculation. The various editors who had viewpoints on this question had, over July, generally added to the passage to bring greater resolution to who Prof. Allen is, the context of her work, and the reaction of the scientific community to it. On my July 14 read of the article, before I was aware of the talk page debates and article histories, I felt that the article had strayed significantly from the topic of Veganism with the inclusion of Allen's piece. My feeling that the passage was a valuable, but misfiled, contribution. With the current version, the Allen piece has been removed, with the consensus being that it was out of scope. I agree, but I am left with two impressions. Had a more careful read been done of the lead section, perhaps, in the first place, the editor would have found another home for the material. Second, while the passage was in place, the discovery of various editors of various aspects of the story led to article volatility. I'll defer this matter of volatility to 5, below, and consider the initial impression. The lead furnishes a concise overview of the article, setting its scope. Before an editor includes new material, a 'scope check', a read of the lead section, is certainly in order. If it is not clear if the new material fits the scope, then take the material to a talk subpage and develop it there, which entails, in part, establishing consensus with other editors, and also establishing if the material might better serve another article. Recommendation: I think the regular editors ought to approach Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine to discuss how Veganism fits within the scope of this technical project. The aim of discussions would be to identify articles on the topic of nutrition which can support this article. Some of the more technical information that, I feel, is misplaced in this article could migrate to those articles, leaving summaries in place here. Once the relationship of Veganism with more technical articles on nutrition has been established, part of the scope check for new material would entail surveying these supporting articles. Within the 'Health/Risk Calculation' there is something of a thematic inbalance, in that the 'Precautions' have more editorial space than "Benefits". Is it true that the precautions of a vegan diet outweigh benefits, or it that editors concerned with health threats are writing at a greater level of detail. In the spirit of the previous recommendation, would it make sense to have editors of the WikiProject Medicine review the section to establish if this information is better presented elsewhere. Finally, a small point. It seems to me that the first paragraph of cuisine is somewhat out of place. Isn't this a cautionary more appropriately placed in the health section?
	4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.	Agree. I find that the editors who regularly contribute to this article are mature and strive for a neutral tone, though they may disagree over a short run, Because of this, there are transient periods when passages may not be neutral. I believe if the recommendation in 5 is followed, then this short-term instability would not be an issue.
	5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.	Disagree. The editors contributing to this article have strong, well reasoned, and largely well-researched opinions, and they fequently fall on different sides to a question; I believe that this diversity of opinion is leading to an article that will be among the best in the encyclopedia. Recommendation: I think that the editors who regularly contribute to this article should adopt amongst themselves the policy of putting proposed changes to the article on talk subpages first. In addition to developing the prose and establishing consensus, additional consideration is given if the material might not be better placed in 'neighboring' articles, concept established in concert with the various Wikiprojects in whose scopes this rticle falls. If inclusion is agreed upon, then the new material would largely be developed on the talk subpages and would be released to the main namespace only when the new material is stable. This practice is aimed at minimizing the volativity of the article, as seen by the casual user, while allowing regular editors full play for their debates.
	6. Any images it contains are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status. Non-free images must meet the criteria for fair use images and be labeled accordingly.	Agree.
	7. Overall	Approve The best of Wikipedia are featured articles; for good articles, the reviewer must take care to ensure that the best does not stand in the way of the good. My remarks concerning coverage are marked because I believe the imbalance in coverage would certainly be detrimental in a Featured Article Candidate discussion, but is not serious issue by good article standards. Imbalance notwithstanding, there is much useful information in this article, and it is mainly sourced and referenced. My one objection to this article's potential status as a good article (5. Stability), has a procedural solution that I think the contributing editors would readily adopt (Indeed, some use the following practice already). For all but the most trival changes (punctuation, spelling, grammar errors), they agree to work out their differences of opinions on talk subpages and, when consensus is achived, bring the result to the main name space article. Such an approach would reduce the public volatility of the article, yet allow full debate in the developmental confines of the talk pages.

My suggestion is to include a worldwide view in this article (like what the template said) and shrink the reference section into a scroll bar menu. Nevertheless, this article will stand as GA for now. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 11:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

I've moved this to talk as it's not clear what the relevance of it is to veganism, which is not about eating less meat for financial or availability reasons, but about deciding to use no animal products for moral, religious, or health reasons:

However, on a worldwide scale, more meat and dairy products are being consumed in developing countries, as a result of rising incomes and increased urbanisation.^[6] The countries that consume least meat per capita are in Africa and South Asia, but meat makes up approximately a third of the diet in some parts of Latin America and Mongolia.^[7][8]

It's also not clear what "more meat and dairy products are being consumed in developing countries ..." means. More than where? More than what? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe the "more" refers to the fact that as purchasing power rises in developing countries, so does meat consumption, and thus there are fewer de-facto vegans. Kellen^T 02:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Health

I find it odd that the health section makes no mention of the fact (which was published recently in the New York Times) that a vegan diet (in both the child and the nursing mother) caused several infant fatalities in the last four years. Also, the article makes no mention of the recent first-degree assault conviction against two parents who fed their child a vegan diet and nearly killed her. Though the first isn't a proper ref for the fatalities, as it's an op-ed, it demonstrates what I feel is glaringly lacking from this otherwise comprehensive article. A criticisms or controversy section. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Per policy criticism sections are bad, however if you can work those sources into the article be my guest.--danielfolsom 20:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Per what policy? Oh, and here, here and here are some better cites for the fatality and malnutrition. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I am also unaware of a policy against criticism sections - they are frequently exceedingly useful. However I caution against claiming that "In the case of the Atlanta vegan parents, who were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter after underfeeding their 6-week-old son with a diet of organic apple juice and soy milk" represents a vegan diet, it is a very severe and stupid diet that no vegan would recommend. sbandrews (t) 21:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Though I agree that vegans are generally as a rule much smarter than that in my experience, these people followed what is accurately described as a strict vegan diet in the source material and were self-identifying vegans. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"But to solely blame veganism in this case wrong. Lots of vegan moms remain true to their beliefs by exclusively breast feeding their infants. These parents were negligent on several levels.

The problem, as a prosecutor noted, seemed to stem from sheer ignorance; in addition to getting the wrong nutrients, the infant simply didn’t get enough."[6]

there is a lot of ignorance regarding veganism - I guess most people just start off on their own and muddle through as best they can - this is where the danger lies, I don't believe a correct vegan diet is dangerous so long as you are aware of the danger signs of vitamin deficiency - but there are dangers too with a meat based diet, in many ways a vegan diet is simpler in this respect because there are far fewer variables, sbandrews (t) 21:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

We're veering off into discussion here. I'm writing a sandbox version of my additions to the pregnancy section of "Health", but I can tell you right now that it's only going to be a couple sentences and will only mention that the malnutrition/fatality cases were associated with a strict vegan diet. Not caused by in other words. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

more closely associated with ignorance imo, but I think your section will be a valuable contibution, regards sbandrews (t) 21:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; most of the documented health problems for children with vegan mothers that I have read about have been due to severe B12 deficiency in the mother. This is mentioned in the article. The other "abuse" cases are usually pure and simple starvation, not veganism. Kellen^T 23:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, reliable newsmedia disagrees with you in that it is linked to (if not blankly caused by) veganism. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The two later articles relate to the same case, in which the couple malnourished their child. If you read the RS's in the article, you'll see that the American Dietetic Association specifically indicates a planned vegan diet is appropriate for infancy. That this couple was unable to properly feed their child is not a problem with veganism, but with them being idiots. Kellen^T 23:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't cite the Chicago tribune blog as an RS in the article. Your opinion of the people (though I agree) doesn't negate the fact that these individuals set out to feed their children with a vegan diet. Even if their execution of veganism was flawed, it was a vegan diet that killed these kids. Are you contesting that they were being fed according to vegan strictures? Because like it or not they were. We're, once again, veering into general discussion of the topic. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

struck out reply to struck out comment: The food fed to the child also adheres to an omnivorous diet, but is not seen as an implication of that 'system.' Kellen^T 00:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

About the poor change. The qualifier "poor" is not supported by the citations, and calling it strict is explicitly so. Plain and simple. The poor thing is personal opinion, as is your notion that strict veganism is a positive thing. If you like, we can just say vegan diet without adjectives. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not opposed per se to including this material, but we need to quote the sources verbatim. For example, in case of the parents who were convicted of assault - let's substitute "strict vegetarian diet" with "a diet of ground nuts, puréed fruits, and vegetables" or something similar. These sources give us more information about what exactly was fed to these children. We can just quote the sources and readers can compare it to the information in the nutrition section and see for themselves that it was inadequate. Can anyone find a good link for the proper nutrition of vegan children? All the links in this section are about maternal nutrition. Cheers,Skinwalker 01:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

First, all of the sources describe the diet as being strict vegetarian or vegan (the terms are used synonymously even in this article and all the articles make use of vegan in their description) so saying so isn't inaccurate, and quoting verbatim in the sentence doesn't work as there are several different varied references. But a new sentence or two to detail the diets of the specific children from the sources as examples would be okay. So the general statement, and then something like: Kid's name or the child of such and such, died after being fed a diet exclusively of blah blah. But simply removing the vegan term in favor of verbatims is both disruptive of sentence structure and disingenuous of the facts of the source material. VanTucky ^(talk) 01:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we totally avoid the use of the terms "vegan" or "strict vegetarian". A common objection to critical material in this article is "Well, that's not really a vegan diet", which is sometimes justifiable criticism and other times reminiscent of the No true scotsman argument. We can avoid this by clearly stating what the children were fed, which will allow the reader to evaluate whether or not it is adequate and/or meets their definition of a proper vegan diet. I'm not sure this deserves more than a couple of sentences - after all, omnivores starve their kids to death on a regular basis, but not usually for ideological reasons. Cheers, Skinwalker 12:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and add a verbatim sentence, but keeping in mind that we want to keep it short. However, I want to point out that no source, and not the content itself in any way asserts or suggests that this was a proper diet of any kind. That of course should be obvious. The point is that, whether for ideological reasons or otherwise (there is no common denominator in the cases as for reasoning), these children were deliberately fed a diet devoid of animal products, which is the definition of vegan. VanTucky ^(talk) 15:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I just thought, rather than adding another verbatim sentence, would it be more acceptable to say an "unsupplemented" vegan diet, rather than strict? that would be more fitting with the rest of the info in the section anyway. VanTucky ^(talk) 15:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This is conflating lack of food with veganism. If you read VanTucky's cites, they indicate the children were fed little of anything at all. This is not veganism, it is starvation. A family who kept their kids on the Atkins diet, and fed their kids little of anything, would meet the same test VanTucky is using. Abe Froman 15:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the only real test for inclusion is verification in reliable sources. The sources I cited all refer to the child's diet as intentionally vegan/strict vegetarian. They weren't incidentally vegan. Just because it's is distasteful to normal, healthy vegans doesn't negate the fact that reliable news-media sources bring this up as a vegan issue, not just a malnutrition issue. VanTucky ^(talk) 15:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop pushing ideology by leaving out information from your own sources. I have added the caveats that VanTucky has deliberately left out, information from his own sources that contradict his mis-statement of fact. To wit: The American Dietetic Association has said "The ADA approves of a vegan diet for infants and children as long as they also take supplements or eat foods fortified with calcium, vitamins D and B-12, and other nutrients found in animal-based foods." According to ADA spokeswoman Sarah Krieger, "People use vegan like it's a four-letter word, that's bad. It (veganism) definitely is not."^{[9] [10]}

Abe Froman 15:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The 'cited associations with veganism and these cases is fact. The article is repeating itself by saying the ADA's statement twice, both before and after the cited facts of the cases. This is unallowable undue weight. VanTucky ^(talk) 15:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact is, VanTucky is cherry picking his sources for information against veganism, and removing information from the article, from his same sources, that couches the claims in dramatically different terms. This is the very definition of WP:POV. Abe Froman 15:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

That's bullshit and you know it. You have:

• A. removed the facts of the what the convictions were, making it vague, the parents were not convicted of blankly "starving their children" they were convicted of very specific legal charges.
• B. called the diets poorly planned which is not supported by the cites. They only describe it as a vegan diet, not a poorly planned one.
• C. called the criticism misdirected, which is a complete and bald-faced violation of NPOV. Quoting the ADA spokeswoman is acceptable, but blankly calling the criticism misdirected is a completely uncited and unacceptable value judgement.
• D. Repeated the fact of the ADA's statement on the safety of the diet twice in the same section, which beyond being bad writing is giving undue weight of the most obvious kind. the statements of the ADA and other reliable sources on the complete safety of a well-planned vegan diet come directly before the cases. Furthermore, the text says that it was associated with the cases, not the direct cause.

Several other editors have had no problem sticking to the bare cited facts without editorializing by adding qualifiers to the diet and it's subsequent consequences and convictions of specific charges. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Tucky, your cause celebre, Crowd Shakur, has a problem. According to Dr. Amy Lanou, who was an expert witness in the Crowd Shakur starvation case, "some are even misusing the tragic and confusing (Shakur) case to question the ethics and adequacy of vegan nutrition during pregnancy, lactation, infancy and childhood... Yet one thing about Crown's death is very clear. He was not killed by a vegan diet... The real problem was that he was not given enough food of any sort." [7]

Tuckers, you are using the Shakur case incorrectly, as the comment from the good doctor involved with the case above illustrates. Selectively quoting the sources, and removing information from your own sources contrary to your views, is POV. please do not remove information from our own sources that correctly characterizes the Shakur tragedy. Abe Froman 16:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Surrounding the cited facts of the association with veganism by multiple reliable sources with contradictions by commentators is a violation of a NPOV in that it takes simple, cited facts and attempts to downplay them by surrounding them with criticism. Your citation to the opinion of one person doesn't mean that multiple reliable news sources (such as the goddamn NYT's) associated the deaths with a vegan diet in multiple articles. My version of the mention gave no credence to the criticism other to say that it existed, and only repeated what was factually accurate from the sources. You have added adjectives to the description that were not a part of these sources to try and downplay them. A two sentence mention of the cases and the resulting criticism is not a huge campaign to push that veganism kills kids, it's adherence to a neutral point of view. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Tuckers, your cherished NYTimes "article" is an Op-Ed. Dr Lanou's cite, on the other hand, is a non-fiction article from Houston Chronicle. Dr. Lanou appeared as an expert witness in the Shakur case. Dr Lanou says veganism did not kill Shakur, starvation did. The sources do not support your claim that veganism killed Shakur. Abe Froman 16:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There are two NYTimes sources. One is an article about the case, citation number 89. The second was an op-ed that was only used as a citation to the fact that criticism existed. In addition to labeling the criticism as misdirected, you removed the two citations to support the fact that significant criticism exists, that plus adding statements from supporters of veganism saying it's not associated (despite the sources calling it so) is neutral? I think not. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Where are the citations I allegedly removed? I would like to read them, and see if 1. I actually removed them, and 2. If they actually say what Tucky thinks they do. Abe Froman 16:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Just click on the citation link. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I see. I didn't remove any cites, unlike Tucky, who has just whitewashed the ADA Spokeswoman Krieger quote out of the article. Abe Froman 16:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time to comment on this, but Abe needs to stop assuming bad faith of editors who disagree with him. The addition of the Lanou quote is a good balance, but accusing people of "whitewashing" is needlessly inflaming the situation. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Muliple quotations attacking something and none supporting it is hardly fair. That is why I removed the less informative and explicit of the two quotations. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, as Veganism has such a small amount of criticism (in a similar way to Linux having a small amount), it would be perfectly normal to have the weight be in favour of veganism as it would reflect the real world reaction to it (note, this doesn't mean that everyone thinks favourably of it - as most people think it is odd, but people don't generally criticise vegans). Having too much focus on the negative would be undue weight.-Localzuk^(talk) 16:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I think your notion that any criticism of veganism is fringe is based on personal perspective. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope, it is based on the fact that veganism has very little vocal critics. For example, some simple searchs for vegan or veganism and 'criticism' or 'malnutrician' turns up a very low number of articles and forums with criticism in, compared with neutral and positive comments bringing up a multitude more. It comes from being vegan and having only ever received criticism about the form of diet once - by a sheep farmer. It is a fringe to veganism as a subject and as such should be treated that way within the article.-Localzuk^(talk) 16:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Google and personal experience? Still sounds like personal perspective. For my own, I live in one of most vegan-friendly cities on earth, and my vegan friends get hazed all the time. Just because this article doesn't contain much notable criticism doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. VanTucky ^(talk) 17:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) Well, if you can disprove my statements then by all means do, but all I have been able to find in terms of 'notable criticism' has been 2 articles - the one being discussed here (which as has been shown was taken out of context by the media) and the one involving that useless experiment in a third world country, again taken out of context by the media as well as being completely immoral and unscientific in its findings... Please provide me with more. I can find you hundreds, maybe thousands of articles saying how good veganism is for you from university professors, nutritionists, government agencies etc... This still leads me to think criticism is a fringe aspect of veganism.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Nothing has been proven was taken out of context. Nina Planck's NYT op-ed was written after the witness statement, and offers pointed criticisms and discussion of the assertion that it was simple starvation. I'm not saying that criticism is very notable, I'm saying the personal bias of an article written almost entirely by vegans is going to leave out a search for criticism. If you really want me to get into it, I'll waste my time dredging every published book criticizing it. But the fact that vegans failed to find ntoable criticism from an internet search hardly sounds like a sound finding of fact to me. VanTucky ^(talk) 17:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You are still misunderstanding. If you have to go and 'dredge' books to find criticism then it is obviously not a largescale and widely occurring thing. The fact the internet has barely any notable criticism also shows this. How else can you show it is a fringe aspect of veganism?-Localzuk^(talk) 17:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)So once again, I come back to look and see that what was a simple, two-sentence neutral statement of fact from sources that was already balanced by the overwhelming professional majority approving a vegan diet, has been obfuscated into oblivion by vegans offended by reputable news media organizations even hinting that a vegan diet isn't perfect. I'll be staying away from this article in the future, both because I get inflamed and because it seems it's lorded over by what has been aptly called a "Hezbollah-like splinter faction" from mainstream vegetarianism. Have fun with your little pamphlet on the joys of veganism. VanTucky ^(talk) 19:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Obfuscated? Lets take stock. VanTucky adds an article about a murder case, and equates veganism to murder. We post a statement from the medical expert witness in VanTucky's example case. The witness, Dr. Lanou, states veganism was not to blame, it was simply starvation. Dr. Lanou adds that some people are deliberately distorting what the tragic case was about to score propaganda points against vegans. Now VanTucky is angry that he cannot label vegans as murderers. So far, so clear? Abe Froman 19:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism sections are not allowed per mos. Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure. --danielfolsom 22:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say criticism sections are not allowed? It says they are discouraged, and Wikipedia:Criticism is an essay. —Viriditas | Talk 23:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Discouraged isn't even a word used in the entire section. IT says that it's a bad style of writing, and it's the manual of style - which is policy. (2 + 2 = 4) And I didn't mention WP:Criticism--danielfolsom 11:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It says nothing of the kind nor does it mention criticism; it refers to controversial material and doesn't refer to criticism sections at all except to say see also: Wikipedia:Criticism, which is an essay, not a policy or guideline, which explicitly states, "In general, making separate sections with the title "Criticism" is discouraged." —Viriditas | Talk 20:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

And the discouraged argument is crap because if the MOS says they're to be discouraged then someone will place {{criticism-section}} on the page and then other people will have to come in and clean up your crap (I say your because I, obviously unlike you, wouldn't go against the MOS to add a criticism section).--danielfolsom 11:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not the MOS, it's a Wikipedia essay. —Viriditas | Talk 20:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, you keep bringing up WP:Criticism and I don't know why - it's an essay, but I never mentioned it - and you're acting like I did. The one I mentioned is policy. Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure - it's part of the manual of style.--danielfolsom 10:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

On 22:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC), you wrote, "Criticism sections are not allowed per mos." Please show me where it says that in Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure. —Viriditas | Talk 11:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

What are you asking? That section says editors should not write criticism sections. The top of the page says that article is part of the manual of style.--danielfolsom 18:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please quote the section in the MOS that says "editors should not write criticism sections". I don't see it. —Viriditas | Talk 20:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Look - maybe have no idea what the outlook is on criticism sections, but I'm not going to use this talk page to explain it to you - if you want help then come to my talk page and I'll help you - I'm fine with that, but this talk page is for discussing veganism - and the user who suggested this has already said that it shouldn't be a criticism section after I brought it up.--danielfolsom 18:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the MOS doesn't say that, and the only place that says it, states that criticism sections should be discouraged, and that's a Wikipedia essay. I think I've pointed this out several times. —Viriditas | Talk 20:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

THE LINK I GAVE IS THE MOS - why is this so hard for you to understand? It's like 3rd grade comprehension. THIS Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure IS THE MANUAL OF STYLE. It is not an essay. How do I know? Great question - it's because at the top of the article it says so. Now that section says criticism sections should be avoided. Now for the challenging part - that article is part of the manual of style - and the content in the article says criticism sections should be avoided - so therefore the manual of style says criticism sections should be avoided.--danielfolsom 14:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, the link you gave does not say "criticism sections should be avoided" nor does the Manual of Style say that anywhere. Please provide a quote and a valid link where you claim it does or retract. —Viriditas | Talk 14:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Viriditas - I'm not sure why you keep having the discussion here - you know that article talk pages are for discussing the article - and yet you aren't discussing the article. No current criticism proposal exist and you haven't brought one up - and I keep trying to have the discussion on user talk pages, where it belongs, but you just delete the comments. But if you want a quote - here:Ok you want a quote - fine. Here:

Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.

Is that good? Or do you need something more--danielfolsom 14:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

And as to the manual of style - that article is the manual of style - look at the top of the page.--danielfolsom 14:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok - now is there anything else - tell me if I've proved the following:--danielfolsom 14:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The section you have quoted does not say "criticism sections should be avoided" nor does it discuss criticism sections in particular. So your original claim, "Criticism sections are not allowed per mos" is false. —Viriditas | Talk 15:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait - yes it does.

Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact — the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.

Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.

Ok - read the bold lines - distilling would be like creating a criticism section. But now at least you admit that the page is part of the manual of style right (if you still think no - look at the top of the page where it has the template)--danielfolsom 15:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, the section you have quoted does not say "criticism sections should be avoided" nor does it discuss criticism sections in particular. Please stop interpreting the Manual of Style. —Viriditas | Talk 15:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Again - I'm just asking if you will tell me what's wrong with these statements -because I'm not sure why you don't believe them after I've given you direct quotes and templates.--danielfolsom 15:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, the section you have quoted does not say "criticism sections should be avoided" nor does it discuss criticism sections in particular. Please stop interpreting the Manual of Style. —Viriditas | Talk 15:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article is part of the MOS

Proof - template at top.--danielfolsom 15:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is part of the Manual of Style, and it does not say that criticism sections are prohibited. —Viriditas | Talk 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok - you admitted that - now couldn't you have figured that out a while ago by looking for yourself rather than denying it so many times?--danielfolsom 15:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Try reading the discussion above. —Viriditas | Talk 15:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute - even you said that they were discouraged! "It says they are discouraged"--danielfolsom 15:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

They are discouraged, in WP:CRITICISM, an essay, not the Manual of Style. I've explained this to you several times. —Viriditas | Talk 16:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh I agree that's an essay - I've never said it wasn't - but wait - if you agree they are discouraged then I don't know what we're arguing about. However, as we've been asked to leave this talk page - which I agree we should do, we can only continue this on either your or my talk page - I could care less which.--danielfolsom 16:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Then why did you claim below that my "lack of objection" meant that I had "conceded". It's getting difficult to believe anything you say or write. —Viriditas | Talk 23:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article says editors should avoid "distilling" criticism

Proof -
"
Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact — the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.

Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
"
Do you not get the context - cause I'd be happy to explain that to you. When it says rather than distilling them - them refers to controversy - stated in the section before "Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative [and not "distill"]them out into separate sections that ignore each other."--danielfolsom 15:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The section you have quoted does not say "criticism sections should be avoided" nor does it discuss criticism sections. In case you don't understand, not all criticism is controversial, and not all controversy is criticism. —Viriditas | Talk 15:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok - so you're upset because it doesn't say criticism. I think it's obvious that they're talking about criticism, "proponents" and "opponents"? But stop calling this harassment because that's bullshit - I'm getting a second opinion, you should to. It seems to me like ever since I proved you were wrong about the article being part of the MOS you've called it harassment.--danielfolsom 15:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has never been about "the article being part of the MOS". It's been about your claim that that the MOS prohibits criticism sections, which it doesn't. —Viriditas | Talk 15:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity - can you think of a few instances where criticism isn't controversy? Because mostly, when a organization accepts criticism - they usually try to change - in which case it would more likely become a section.--danielfolsom 15:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Film criticism, literary criticism, art criticism, historical criticism, criticism of scientific studies, criticism of medicine, etc. —Viriditas | Talk 15:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

From dictionary.com: controversy: a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion. - like criticism.--danielfolsom 15:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

And nothing about criticism. —Viriditas | Talk 15:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

What does that even mean - I gave you the definition from dictionary.com that essentially said that controversy is a matter of opinion - criticism is an opinion. Have you gotten a second opinion yet?--danielfolsom 15:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism and controversy are not even related words. Criticism is a "a serious examination and judgment of something"; or "a written evaluation of a work of literature"; or "disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings". —Viriditas | Talk 15:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to be rude, and I respect both of you, but would you two please go talk past each other somewhere else? This exchange has long ago ceased to have any benefit to this article. Cheers, Skinwalker 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second Opinion

Both User:Messedrocker and User:Danny have said that they believe that it says criticism sections should be avoided.--danielfolsom 15:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

And User:sbandrews, User:VanTucky and myself have observed that there is no prohibition against criticism sections in the MOS, contrary to your claim. —Viriditas | Talk 15:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually VanTucky hasn't commented on it at all after I brought up the link - and I don't believe sbandrews has either--danielfolsom 17:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, both VanTucky and Sbandrews have observed that there is no such policy, contrary to your claim. —Viriditas | Talk 23:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say that the MOS does say, in a general manner, that criticism sections (and all other forms of 'clumping' of particular viewpoints) should not be 'distilled' and put together. I would even go so far as to say that it is blatantly obvious that is the intention.

I would like to suggest that saying that it doesn't specifically mention the word 'criticism' is a red herring, as many policies cover aspects of editing which are not specifically mentioned but are within the scope and within the purpose of that policy.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The MOS says nothing of the kind, and criticism sections are perfectly acceptable and have absolutely nothing to do with "controversy" sections described in the policy in question. For example, WP:FILMS uses criticism sections in thousands of articles, most of which are not controversial, as do art and literature articles as well. Science, medicine, and religion-related articles also make great use of criticism sections, such as Medicine, Evidence-based medicine, Biomedical research, Medical malpractice, Peer review, Social sciences , Creation biology, Baraminology. Diet-related articles also make great use of criticism sections, such as Zone diet, Paleolithic diet, Raw foodism, Atkins Nutritional Approach, Blood type diet, Feingold diet, Taoist diet, and Detox diet. Criticism sections are used all over Wikipedia, and in many instances, the critcism sections do not involve controversy of any kind. —Viriditas | Talk 23:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Localzuk on that policy - however I have found a policy that is unarguable: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure (the 7 is a note). Quote:

“

"Sometimes the internal structure of an article may require additional attention to protect neutrality and avoid problems like POV forks and Undue Weight. Examples that may warrant attention include: articles that "segregate" text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself;7 7 Article sections devoted solely to criticism, or "pro and con" sections within articles are two commonly cited examples. There are varying views on whether and to what extent such kinds of article structure are appropriate. (See e.g., Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure, Wikipedia:Pro_&_con_lists, Wikipedia_talk:Pro_&_con_lists, Template:Criticism-section)."

”

I have shown this to Viriditas and I believe - through a lack of objection - he has conceded.--danielfolsom 17:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

That's an extremely dishonest thing to say. I have objected to everything you have written on this topic, and I have asked you to show me where the MOS states that criticism sections are prohibited. The MOS doesn't say that, so I can only conclude that you made it up, just like you made up my "lack of objection" and "concession", both of which never occurred. You also know perfectly well that User:Skinwalker asked us to stop discussing this page, so stating that I have conceded by respecting Skinwalker's request is doubly dishonest. Finally, quoting a footnote from the NPOV policy that states "there are varying views on whether and to what extent such kinds of article structure are appropriate" proves my point. Thanks for conceding that the MOS does not prohibit criticism sections. —Viriditas | Talk 23:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all - after he said not to you still replied - I tried to move the discussion to your or my talk page and you wouldn't allow it. Secondly, read the comment above mine by Localzuk, who agrees that the MOS says criticism sections are to be avoided (not prohibited - there's a difference) - you have a tendency to ignore a lot of the discussion, as I have brought up. The lack of objection was assumed because you didn't continue the debate- to me it seemed like the Americans retreating from Vietnam.--danielfolsom 01:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I haven't ignored anything. Your claim, "Criticism sections are not allowed per mos. Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure" is false. Furthermore, you have disproved your own claim by citing a footnote to the NPOV policy which states, "there are varying views on whether and to what extent such kinds of article structure are appropriate". So, this discussion is closed. —Viriditas | Talk 02:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Again - we have two editors that agree that controversy is part of criticism - per the definition that I mentioned above from dictionary.com, and I think it's pretty obvious that the npov policy says criticism sections should be avoided- even without the footnote. I mean it says sections shouldn't be segregated by their subject's POV - so I think we are done here - unless you think otherwise.--danielfolsom 02:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Controversy is not a part of criticism. Look up the definitions I gave you above. The MOS doesn't say what you claim it says, nor does the NPOV policy. You and Localzuk are free to interpret guidelines and policies to your heart's content, it still doesn't change reality. —Viriditas | Talk 02:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

So apparently Viri ... was upset because I said the MOS said crticism sections were discouraged - because he/she believes criticism isn't under controversy. Localzuk said that they were, and viri... also disagreed. However, now we know that the policy on NPOV does say criticism sections aren't allowed - so is there any argument?--danielfolsom 01:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't speculate about other editors. You never claimed that criticism sections were discouraged, you claimed that "Criticism sections are not allowed per mos. Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure". I patiently explained to you - several times - that criticism sections were discouraged per a Wikipedia essay, not a policy or a guideline. I hope that clears up your confusion. —Viriditas | Talk 02:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Again - we have two editors that think controversy is a general category that includes criticism - but regardless - I think the NPOV quote proves that criticism sections should be avoided - so we don't need to go back and make points on random things - as long as the general is decided.--danielfolsom 02:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Controversy does not necessarily include criticism, nor is the reverse true, and the NPOV policy quote proves my point not yours: there is no policy or guideline against criticism sections. If you had actually bothered to study the issue, you would understand that the all of the commentary relating to controversy sections is in relation to unbalanced, POV, and disjointed sections. This is not a critique or prohibition against criticism sections: it is a request for integrating controversy whenever it is unbalanced, and for balancing criticism whenever it carries undue weight. This of course, does not apply to all criticism sections, nor could it, which is why there is no prohibition against such sections. —Viriditas | Talk 02:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Fine - look I think if you actually ask any editor - perhaps an admin would be best as newcomers have a tendency towards criticism sections - then you would realize I'm in the majority. I mean keep in mind I've actually asked people as we've gone along - whereas you haven't admitted to doing so, perhaps it is fear - i dont' know. (and again - per the definition at dictionary.com - criticism is controversy) So far you're the only one that has of recent taken the pro-criticism section side, but really, whatever - I mean it's not like a criticism section is proposed- so we don't need to talk about it here --danielfolsom 02:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The definitions at dictionary.com for criticism and controversy are dissimilar. —Viriditas | Talk 02:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

So now in conclusion I and Localzuk think criticism sections aren't allowed, and Viriditas doesn't.--danielfolsom 02:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No, in conclusion, your claim that "Criticism sections are not allowed per mos" is false. The MOS does not say that. —Viriditas | Talk 02:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Repeat: Localzuk and I say it does - you say it doesn't (if you're so competitive that you need to declare someone wrong - well you're in the minority).--danielfolsom 02:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, the MOS does not say that criticism sections are prohibited, nor can you provide a quote saying such a thing: that's your interpretation. What you or anyone else believes is irrelevant. Beliefs have no role to play in this discussion. Either the MOS prohibits criticism sections or it doesn't. And, it doesn't. The NPOV policy footnote that you cited in defense of your position contradicts your belief. —Viriditas | Talk 02:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope - it does - and the other user agrees with me.--danielfolsom 03:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait - I thought you didn't want to talk about this anymore - so let's end it. I think the MOS says no crticism sections. Localzuk thinks the MOS says no criticism sections. You think it doesn't. Those are the facts. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying we're right - I'm just saying obviously there's not going to be a change in opinion on either side. Now as you said and as I said before you - the veganism page is not the place to discuss this, but you refuse to talk on your talk page (not sure why). So obviously, it's closed. Now if you want to have the last word and make a snide comment about how you're right when in fact I've just said let's agree to disagree - go ahead, be my guest.--danielfolsom 03:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Veganism and Dietary Supplements

I think it should be made more explicit that vegans will die unless they take dietary supplements derived from animal matter, which obviously would make the survivor no longer a vegan. - MSTCrow 22:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Dietary supplements exist that do not use animals. B12 from seaweed, for example. Which supplement exists only in animal form? Abe Froman 22:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

What's up with the Herring under a Fur Coat dish? Fish is ok for vegan diet??? baloney! - Alexk 22:45, 1 Sept 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you posted that here but you should read the box again as it states it is a vegan version of the dish - so by reading the rest of the article you will know it has no fish in it.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lindsay Allen once and for all

OKAY! This has been discussed to death, so I would like to do a straw poll to settle on whether to include or exclude (a) discussion of Allen's B12 study (b) Allen's comments on veganism and the ensuing media frenzy.

For reference, here is the version which I think most accurately describes both the study and Allen's comments, without documenting the media frenzy that was provoked by a partial reporting of Allen's comments:

Another B12 study was conducted in rural Africa, partially backed by the U.S. based National Cattlemen's Beef Association, which demonstrated a dramatic improvement in the health of individuals who had, prior to the study, been on diets completely lacking in animal products. The study concluded that the added nutrients, especially vitamin B12 contained in the meat and milk improved the health of the children in the study.^[11] The author of the study, Professor Lindsay Allen of the United States Agricultural Research Service, declared: "There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans, unless those who practiced them were well-informed about how to add back the missing nutrients through supplements or fortified foods."^[11][12][13] However, the British Dietetic Association contended that the findings of the study were not applicable to vegan children in the developed world. They note that B12 (produced by fermenting carbohydrates with specific strains of bacteria) is now included in many fortified foods generally available. Noting that the impoverished children in the study had diets deficient in zinc, B12 and iron, they concluded, "There is no evidence that our vegan and vegetarian children in this country suffer impaired development." They did note, however, that young children, pregnant and nursing women are vulnerable as vegans, urging parents to review their children's diets to be sure that they have a well-balanced diet.^[14]

A number of previous discussions have been held:

• Talk:Veganism/Archive05#Prof._Allen.27s_Study_and_a_Reminder, which resulted in the content about her (a) study being deleted from the article, but her (b) comments about veganism being included
• Talk:Veganism/Archive08#pregnancies_section_cleanup, in which I justify my removal of both (a) study and (b) comments
• Talk:Veganism#Quote, which discusses a less accurate version of text than the one reproduced above
• Talk:Veganism#Lindsay_Allen_2, in which Abe justifies his removal of the (a) study mention (but also removed (b) comments), SlimVirgin argues the study is badly reported, and probably not relevant to veganism, I support removal based upon my previous reasoning, and Skinwalker ultimately removes both (a) study and (b) comments, which by this point have been re-added.

To restate my position here:

• Allen's study showed that nutrients like B12 can be found in meat, and although this is true, it has little relevance to veganism. Allen's study should therefore be excluded.
• The media uproar was based upon a partial reporting of Allen's comments, and almost all of which is irrelevant to the article. The media uproar should be excluded from the article.
• Allen's comments regarding veganism amount to saying that "withholding vital nutrients from a child is unethical." This is not a notable viewpoint, as basically everyone would agree with this, including the Vegan Society. As such, her comments should be excluded.

[edit] Should Lindsay Allen's study be included in the article?

[edit] Yes, include

• Yes, it should be included. It was widely reported and used as a reason not to raise children as vegans. In fact, when you know the background of the study, you can see that it was a very badly formed piece of research, which did not support the conclusion Allen drew from it. I think we should report it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note that I'm talking about this version (final paragraph beginning "In 2005 ..." in the pregnancies and children section), not the version posted above. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

  The events related by that version and the one above are no different. What happened was:

  1. Allen does study
  2. Allen makes comment: "vegan diets are unethical unless mothers add in missing nutrients" (not exact wording)
  3. Allen's comment is mis-reported as: "vegan diets are unethical"
  4. Allen's mis-reported comment is re-reported multiple times
  5. Various people, including Paul McCartney, the BDA, etc object, and say Allen is stupid.
  6. Allen clears up the fact that she had the caveat "unless nutrients are added back"
  7. The end.

  The news stories were predominantly about her mis-reported comment, not her B12 study, which is not notable in itself. For this reason I do not believe her study deserves mention here. Kellen^T 08:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's worth reporting because it shows the lengths some groups and researchers will go to to denigrate veganism. The study did not include a group that was given extra soya (tofu) instead of meat, which made it worthless, yet it was funded by the American Cattleman's Beef Assocation and supported by the Agricultural Research Service. In addition it arguably abused a group of children in the developing world. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 08:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: the above is why I'm supporting the version I posted above, and not the one you posted. The version I'd prefer includes the details of the study, so that readers can see for themselves what was done. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 08:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Include as I trust Slim's judgement and good intentions re this subject, SqueakBox 02:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No, exclude

• Exclude for the reasons I listed above. Kellen^T 03:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude per Kellen. This material is a troll-magnet and there is better criticism of obstetric/pediatric vegan nutrition in the article. Skinwalker 03:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude - it is a nonsense study and per Kellen.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude the conclusions of the study were flawed. If it must be included due to its topical nature then there needs to be a disclaimer. I read the version proposed by SV above and it seems to be too much for such an irrelevant study. Wikipedia should not give so much weight to discredited conclusions. I would favor a mention and an explanaition for why it was a flawed study, i.e. third world diet (that happans to be vegan) is not comparable to first world diet of vegan children. Note, i am not a vegan, or a proponent of veganism. David D. (Talk) 14:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude per all above.--Michig 20:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should Lindsay Allen's comments be included in the article?

[edit] Yes, include

[edit] No, exclude

• Exclude for the reasons I listed above. Kellen^T 03:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude per my comments above. Skinwalker 03:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude if the study is to be excluded as the 2 are linked.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude most of her personal opinion, but include the material derived from the study in this version. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude A major physicians group, representing over 100,000 MD's, says Allen's research was not actually about vegans. Allen's mislabeled research should be in an article about her. Abe Froman 14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Exclude per above.--Michig 20:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions from Pregnancy and Childhood section

I believe this section is weighted heavily towards criticism of veganism in general. In the Pregnancy and Childhood section, several editors have attempted to equate veganism with child abuse or even murder. I would like to add the following quote from Benjamin Spock's book Baby and Child Care to show these criticisms were not supported by the most famous pediatrician in the United States.

"The well-known pediatrician Dr. Benjamin Spock embraces vegan diets in his bestselling (second only to the Bible) book Baby and Child Care. Dr. Spock wrote, "Children who grow up getting their nutrition from plant foods rather than meats have a tremendous health advantage. They are less likely to develop weight problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and some forms of cancer." [8]

I think using the pre-eminent voice in modern US child care will put these criticisms of veganism in childhood into perspective. Abe Froman 16:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure this helps. What studies is Spock citing to make such claims? He only mentions meats, he might be referring to a vegetarian diet? David D. (Talk) 16:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm having trouble understanding this edit summary: "rv "we are discussing it, what is this if it's not a discussion? A diesel locomotive?" ie, you are in minority, discuss".[9] My objections to large quotations from anyone in this article are based on principles found at WP:UNDUE, namely that articles should represent all significant viewpoints in proportion to the prominence of each. The viewpoint that vegan diets are appropriate for pregnant mothers and children is adequately represented by the ADA quote at the beginning of the section. As well, the article structure subsection at WP:NPOV (just above UNDUE) indicates that "arrangements of formatting, headers, footnotes or other elements that appear to give exclusive emphasis to a particular "side" of an issue" require attention as to NPOV. Can we talk about why Localzuk and AbeFroman think that WP:UNDUE is not violated by this addition? As for the minority comment, you will see that my aim on this page has been to promote a fair and neutral assessment of vegan nutrition and medical issues. If that puts me in a minority then this article's newly-acquired Good Article status may have been granted too soon. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Answering David D.: Spock meant Veganism. The seventh edition of Baby and Child Care recommends a vegan diet -- a vegetarian diet minus dairy and eggs -- for children over the age of 2. Abe Froman 16:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Answering Skinwalker: I believe the criticism has undue weight. Look at the passage. It consists of a lead-in, two cases of parents who starved their children, and a study funded by a Beef Trade Association. Defining vegan kids and pregnancies by crazy parents and crank science is my idea of undue weight. I would like to include the Spock quote to counteract the random, though verifiable, cranks represented later in the passage. Abe Froman 16:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that most of the criticism in this section is generated by cranks, though you will see above that I too want to get rid of the Cattlemen's study. I have no problem with the Spock quote, preferably inserted after the first sentence of the pregnancy section. He is a significantly more reliable source than a PCRM physician. I can agree to this if the PCRM quote is removed. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This reference summarises his thoughts. http://www.newsobserver.com/105/story/603236.html . The over two part is an important part wrt milk. David D. (Talk) 16:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe Spock means breast milk, not dairy milk. Abe Froman 16:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

In the article it mentions cow milk. Here is the quote:

"Dairy products (other than breast milk) after the age of 2 years are not recommended. He listed many health reasons. Vegetables and legumes provide calcium and have other nutritional advantages, so milk from cows is unnecessary."

Not sure if this is faithful to his book, the article may have it wrong. It is written in a strange way since it only implies that he recommends cow milk prior to age two. With out seeing his actual text it is hard to know what he actually recommends in the first two years. Possibly he is this vague in his own book? More importantly what are Spocks sources or are these based on his own experiences? If the latter then, despite being an expert in child care, it might not be the best info. Linus Pauling won two Nobel prizes but his ideas on vitamin C are still regarded as dubious, at best.David D. (Talk) 16:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Spock's views on milk and kids evolved over his editions. It was only with the 7th edition of Baby and Child Care in 1998, the final to appear in his lifetime, that Spock finally advised a nondairy diet. [10] However, he did not rule out cow's milk. He just advised breast or fortified soy milk instead. Abe Froman 17:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't get a response about this above, so I will reiterate my offer of compromise. I propose incorporating the Spock quote:

"Children who grow up getting their nutrition from plant foods rather than meats have a tremendous health advantage. They are less likely to develop weight problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and some forms of cancer."

as the second sentence of the first paragraph of the prenancy section. This is contingent on removing the following paragraph that consists of a long quote from Dr. Lanue. Spock is a better source than Lanue for pediatric nutrition, and Lanue's views are still aired as the rebuttal to the Crown Shakur case. Will this be acceptable to everyone? Cheers, Skinwalker 18:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• agree, but point out it is from Spock. He is a recognizable name to most readers. Abe Froman 18:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course. His recognizability is one of the reasons I prefer his quote. I'll wait for more comments before I implement the change. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Bring Pros & Cons section back.....

and more edition is needed, see Treatment with CAM for amendament

No, sorry, a pro & con section is not appropriate for this article. Kellen^T 03:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it is just bad style. The info is better integrated within the rest of the article. CyrilleDunant 06:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Example

Hi, everyone! I added some examples to what they do, are they good? Feel free to change them :) --HollywoodHeart

Hi. Sorry, I removed your examples because there is no need to have them. "Vegans do not use or consume animal products of any kind." is pretty clear - no need to mention every kind of animal product.Bob98133 22:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Bob! Um, that might not be specific enough for people who don't speak English as their primary language.

But this is the English Wikipedia - we can't accommodate everyone. Else articles would be filled with examples, repetition explaining things etc... We don't need specific examples as the line, as mentioned by Bob98133, covers it all.-Localzuk^(talk) 22:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anon's dispute

An anonymous contributor, 160.39.37.59 (talk · contribs), recently added

I question the neutrality of this article. Especially as the three sources listed for the following tidbit are either more than two decades old or from the propaganda mills of vegans. (104-106)

to the beginning of the "Resources and the environment" section. The addition was reverted by Kellen` (talk · contribs) as "vandalism". Obviously the main article space is the wrong forum to discuss such concerns with the article, so Kellen` did nothing wrong. At the same time it feels a bit inapropriate to ignore the comments outright, so I moved them here. —Gabbe 12:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The passage and citations in question are:

People who adopt veganism for environmental reasons do so on the basis that veganism consumes less resources and causes less environmental damage than an animal-based diet.^[15][16][17]

I think these are fine sources for establishing the reasoning of people adopting veganism for environmental reasons. The following two sentences provide the basis for veganism using fewer resources and causing less environmental damage. These are also from vegan advocacy organizations, however. Each of these statements could be reworked to say "vegan advocacy orgs contend" but don't really think this is necessary, and will probably result in all of the citations in the vegan advocacy papers being transferred here in a way which borders on OR. Kellen^T 18:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that these are good sources. In the passage above, maybe we could change the word "basis" to "belief"? Short, simple, and avoids weasel words. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

"Belief" implies lack of evidence in some way. I don't think many people actually contend that a vegan diet would use more resources than an animal-based diet (i've never read a serious critique of that position, anyhow). The problem with supporting such a statement is that the only people who relate research to veganism -- the only sources citable that would say "veganism uses fewer resources" -- are vegan advocacy organizations. Other organizations have no grounds to mention veganism, and instead say things like "animal agriculture is resource intensive" or "exporting grain from the third world to raise meat consumed by those in the first world is an issue." Kellen^T 22:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think "belief" is a far better word. It doesn't imply that they're wrong, but it does imply that it hasn't been proven to be true. In some cases, vegan diets may cause less environmental damage, but in other cases they may cause more. It depends where you are in the world, and what you're eating. Pastured poultry may be more friendly than imported tofu or monocultured soybeans. We can't say for sure, so let's call it a "belief." --DPB, 8/4