Template talk:VarietiesofArabic
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[edit] Maltese
This is irrelevant as has been pointed out more times than I care to mention. Maltese is linguo-genetically Arabic irrespective of its social status, which is made clear at Varieties of Arabic and Maghrebi Arabic. Thus, just as a template on Slavic or Germanic languages list all their varieties, so should one on Arabic varieties. Unless this template is about Arabic dialects specifically, or those generally considered "dialects", it should not enforce an arbitrary classification based on this social assumption. I fail to understand the need to hide Nubi language behind "Kinubi Creole Arabic" for the same reason. What I find even more strange is that his template is not even listed at Varieties of Arabic, which makes me question its purpose in the first place. — Zerida 03:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing this to talk. I do agree that the template should include both Maltese and Kinubi for the reasons outlined above. One solutin to this might be to rename the template something like 'Varieties and descendants of Arabic', but that is rather clumsy... And I'll think I'll add the template to Varieties of Arabic... I hadn't noticed it wasn't there. Drmaik 05:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sudanese Arabic, peripheral?
Hi, can someone calrify why Sudanese is listed among peripherals in the Navibar?.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 10:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- That's a good question. It looks like this is one of the changes that User:Taivo introduced. I wouldn't have immediately put Sudanese in the peripheral category... Drmaik (talk) 11:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, I didn't introduce the category "Peripheral". It was that way in the article Varieties of Arabic when I found it. See the article Varieties of Arabic and you will find the "Peripheral" category there. I just made the template and the article consistent (more or less). If you don't like "Peripheral", feel free to move it around, but please keep the article and the template consistent. If you describe "peripheral" as "heavily influenced by surrounding languages", then Sudanese is "peripheral". If you have a different definition, then it might not be. (Taivo (talk) 12:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
- If we use that as a criterion, then some dialects like Moroccan would be considered "peripheral" since it is probably more influenced by other languages than Sudanese. Sudanese is not listed as a peripheral variety in Varieties of Arabic as far as I can see. I suggest bringing it back up in the template. — Zerida ☥ 02:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- You're right! I was thinking of Chadian. I think one of the reasons that I moved Sudanese into Peripheral is that the group was called "Egyptian" whereas in the Varieties article it was called "Central". I renamed the group in the template "Central" (renamed "Cairene" to "Egyptian") and moved Sudanese into that group where it belongs. Sorry about the confusion. (Taivo (talk) 03:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
- Nope, I didn't introduce the category "Peripheral". It was that way in the article Varieties of Arabic when I found it. See the article Varieties of Arabic and you will find the "Peripheral" category there. I just made the template and the article consistent (more or less). If you don't like "Peripheral", feel free to move it around, but please keep the article and the template consistent. If you describe "peripheral" as "heavily influenced by surrounding languages", then Sudanese is "peripheral". If you have a different definition, then it might not be. (Taivo (talk) 12:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
Thanks for the constructive discussion. The template looks more nautural now-at least to me. I still wonder though, what the exact def of peripheral Arabic is. If anyone can dig it out somewhere It'd be of great help in sorting things out. Thanks.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- This is a pure guess, but it seems that "Peripheral" may refer to those varieties of Arabic spoken beyond the confines of Arab ethnicity and in regions where Arabic is not the majority language--Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan/Afghanistan, Iran. Even in Chad, the southern part of the country is solidly African both ethnically and linguistically. Thus the Tajiki/Uzbeki/Iranian varieties are often called "Persianized Arabic". These are also varieties of Arabic spoken outside the diglossia zone. As such, there isn't a linguistic node on a family tree that would be labelled "Peripheral", but they would be defined sociolinguistically. And although Maltese is clearly a descendant of Maghribi, I would also lean towards including it in Peripheral since it is "Italianized Arabic" and outside the diglossia zone. These are just my personal musings about the issue of "peripheral". I'm informed on the issue of the Arabic languages, but I'm by no means a specialist. (Taivo (talk) 08:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
- Here's a reference to "Peripheral Arabic": Alan S. Kaye & Judith Rosenhouse. 1997. "Arabic Dialects and Maltese," The Semitic Languages. Ed. Robert Hetzron. Routledge Language Family Descriptions. London: Routledge. Pages 263-311. The relevant quote on 263 says, "Arabic dialects may be considered languages, comparable to the Romance situation. Peripheral Arabic dialects such as Uzbeki Arabic, Maltese, Juba Arabic and Ki-Nubi, Afghan Arabic, the extinct Andalusian (Spanish) Arabic, are more divergent than the mainstream Middle Eastern or North African dialects." So there you have a listing of what these authors consider "peripheral" Arabic. But Juba and Ki-Nubi aren't Arabic dialects, but Arabic-based creoles. I wasn't specifically looking for a definition of "peripheral", but there it is, it just popped out at me. There is, of course, no linguistic unity among these "peripheral" dialects. They are defined more by what they are not than by what they are. (Taivo (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
- I am not sure if I agree with grouping Egyptian and Sudanese as "Central" varieties, mainly because I've never seen this classification cited in literature. Could someone find a reference? — Zerida ☥ 03:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I have never seen a reference for this either, but it is a fairly clear geographical grouping, as is "Arabian" and "Levantine" and "Mesopotamian". I think that the template should walk a compromise line between genetic and geographical. Perhaps the geographical groups in the template should be labelled with the headers in quotation marks--"Central", "Levantine", "Arabian", etc. (Taivo (talk) 05:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC))
- I am not sure if I agree with grouping Egyptian and Sudanese as "Central" varieties, mainly because I've never seen this classification cited in literature. Could someone find a reference? — Zerida ☥ 03:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a reference to "Peripheral Arabic": Alan S. Kaye & Judith Rosenhouse. 1997. "Arabic Dialects and Maltese," The Semitic Languages. Ed. Robert Hetzron. Routledge Language Family Descriptions. London: Routledge. Pages 263-311. The relevant quote on 263 says, "Arabic dialects may be considered languages, comparable to the Romance situation. Peripheral Arabic dialects such as Uzbeki Arabic, Maltese, Juba Arabic and Ki-Nubi, Afghan Arabic, the extinct Andalusian (Spanish) Arabic, are more divergent than the mainstream Middle Eastern or North African dialects." So there you have a listing of what these authors consider "peripheral" Arabic. But Juba and Ki-Nubi aren't Arabic dialects, but Arabic-based creoles. I wasn't specifically looking for a definition of "peripheral", but there it is, it just popped out at me. There is, of course, no linguistic unity among these "peripheral" dialects. They are defined more by what they are not than by what they are. (Taivo (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
[edit] The Template and the Article
The template and the article Varieties of Arabic still aren't entirely consistent. I worked on making them match, especially bringing the terminology into line with ISO 639-3, but wasn't entirely successful. I would think that the chart in the article and this template should exactly reflect one another. They don't entirely right now. (Taivo (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
