Talk:Varna

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1 Varna's population again
2 International festivals, Sea and Memories
3 Links
4 Twins
5 Etymology
6 Need proper references for population figures
7 Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif
8 Population ranking of Varna
9 Fair use rationale for Image:Odesa emblem.gif
10 Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif
11 Fair use rationale for Image:Varna Coat.gif
12 Please stop removing {{fact}} tag for metro population

[edit] Varna's population again

Like I explained in detail earlier, GRAO is an authoritative government data source used in the article on Sofia in this English Wikipedia, as well as in the Bulgarian Wikipedia article on Varna, and apparently credited by the city. The issue of the "second largest" Bulgarian city will obviously be open for some time, but should not be a dramatic issue at all.

About the "metro" population: the "500,000" estimate reflects not the permenent-address population of the agglomeration but the daily winter population of the city itself (with commuters) as estimated by the regional police depratment, RDVR (their estimate is actually 520,000).

About city and municipality limits: indeed, the GRAO number covers the municipality, which includes, besides the city, the separate village mayoralties of Kamenar, Kazashko, Konstantinovo, Topoli, and Zvezditsa with a total permanent-address population of about 8,000. These areas, however, were all included in the 2007 OUP (General Regulation Plan) and earmarked for urban development along the villa zones around them.

Last note. I live in New York (12 years+), have lived in Sofia and was born and raised in Varna, but am also a Plovdiv son-in-law, I know and like Plovdiv well, and don't think there is competition of any kind between our two cities, given how different they are. I have occasionally edited some imperfect language in the English Plovdiv article, naturally without taking the liberty to overwrite numbers and break links - without reading the article first. In this regard, assigning "top" importance to the Plovdiv article with "high" status relegated to the Varna one was also not serious.

Best, 216.254.71.25 16:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that won't do.

1. That source is in Bulgarian, which makes it impossible for almost all English speakers to even evaluate whether it's a reliable source or not. I don't claim to know myself, but your say-so alone isn't sufficient.

2. The source I provided is the official Bulgarian source (from the National Statistical Institute). It is also the same source cited in the linked article here which gives Varna's population ranking among European cities. Your figures are at odds with the ones in that article.

Unless you can provide an authoritative source in English, we should rely on the officially-stated figures I've provided. (I should give you credit for at least discussing this issue here; the totally unexplained edits of these figures by anonymous IP editors are quite annoying.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

My friend, you are missing the point.

GRAO, and not NSI, is the official source: 'GD GRAO' stands for General Directorate (of the Council of Ministers, i.e. the cabinet) for Citizens' Registration and Administrative Service; GRAO prepares, among other things, the voters' lists by permanent address. GRAO offices function in every municipal administraion. They register births, marriages, divorces, and deaths daily. NSI is a scholarly institution using statistical methods.

I don't know why NSI data are so different from GRAO's, but GRAO's are more update: Aug 3, 2007, while NSI info is 2006 at best.

As someone who has lived in Varna for 19 years in the past and who visits there regularly now, I testify that the population is clearly much higher now than it used to be in the early 1990s (at that time it was said to be 310 thousand). It's a whole different world. The GRAO number of 347,000 (permanent address) is a fraction of the number of people actually living in the city now - I regard the local police estimate of 520,000 (daily wintertime population) as largely correct.

Your insistance on an English-language source is, in my opinion, illiterate (sorry about that: I am a PhD author living in New York and contributing to US-published encyclopedias). And it is way more logical to take the approach used in the Sofia article in the English Wikipedia - and in the Bulgarian Wikipedia article on Varna, than the one taken in the "100 EU Cities" article. There is no problem whatsoever with the different numbers, as the two articles use data from different sources, methodologies, and years.

Ficho 22:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It's reasonable to insist on an English-language source because 1) the obvious—this is an English-language project, and 2) there are reliable, official sources available in English. (If there weren't, then of course using a Bulgarian source would be the fallback position.) Since the figures you're providing are in doubt, I'm removing them again. And please don't insert your comments out of order; makes it very difficult to follow the conversation here. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Stop writing bullshit, for God`s sake, you envious people, FROM SOFIA. I know perfectly that you do not want our city to develop and grow. But it`s time to face the truth! Varna was 311 thousand 18 years ago. I gave you f*****g official sources that say exactly how much is the population of Varna! What the heck do you want more???Stop behaving like children. Only Bulgarians are so stupid and limited! This nation is unique, believe me, you, who are not from Bulgaria. I`ve been living here for almost 20 years and I know that. Goddamn donkeys, my Lord. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.42.190 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 1 December 2007

Your foul-mouthed rantings will get you nowhere here. Come up with some credible (i.e., official) sources to back up your claims or shut the hell up. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you blind or what?What more credible source than National Institute of Statistics-Regional Department Varna??? I really don`t know what are you striving for??? Everybody knows the truth and I think that the truth must be written in Wikipedia. Nevertheless it is FREE for editing and correcting wrong statements. Such contentions like "Varna is the third largest city" or " Varna is inhabited by 311,465 people" are not only wrong but funny as well.

[edit] International festivals, Sea and Memories

Anonimous,

I think you are missing the point here.

"Vintage songs" is not unused in English: cf. here: http://www.amazon.com/Ride-Daddy-Vintage-Songs-1927-1953/dp/B0007WL7E4 or here: http://www.amazon.com/Junkers-Jivers-Coke-Fiends-1926-1952/dp/B0007WL7DK

Plus, that's exactly what the festival is all about - songs written from the 1940s to the 1980s. "Oldies but goldies" in my opinion is too suggestive of American music, but we can have it like that if you agree. Or "oldtime urban songs"?

In Bulgaria, "stari gradski pesni" ("oldtime urban songs" = the initial focus of this festival) is a distictive pop genre: in communist times, in referred to popular urban songs from (or sounding as if from) the era before communism (1920s-1940s) - associated with kitschy, phillistine nostalgy. Imagine a choir of older ladies in fox furs singing in surupy voices.

In English, "sea songs" (or "songs of the sea", as I prefer) suggests to me oldtime sailors' songs, pirate songs. In Bulgarian, "pesni za moreto" ("songs of the sea") are par excellence sugary communist-era love songs involving vacationing on the beach. These were added to the festival focus later.

Regarding the quotes vs. italics, please have it your way: definitely looks more Bulgarian, although, in my opinion, less English.

66.65.15.134 00:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Try these websites:

CARLOS TIBBETTS tibbettsm001@hawaii.rr.com

OK, I'll bite: why? What's the point of all these links? By the way, have you noticed what a disorganized mess that list is? You need to learn to use some formatting, either HTML line breaks (<br>) or something. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twins

I have removed Bradford from the list of twin cities. I can find no evidence (except various Wikipedias) for this twinning, and in particular Varna is not listed on the City of Bradford's official web-page (http://www.bradford.gov.uk/life_in_the_community/twin_towns_and_villages) ColinFine 08:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

What's the origin of the name "Varna"? -- Bartosz 23:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It's uncertain. It might be Slavic (from vran, an old root meaning "black" which still exists in words such as vrana "crow"'; or from var "lime"), Thracian, Avar (from var "city").

The name was first attested during the time of Asparuh, who together with his people "arrived at the so-called Varna, near Odessos", which means Varna was very likely initially the name of an area or river near the city. Todor →Bozhinov 18:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Source: [1]. Todor →Bozhinov 18:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need proper references for population figures

OK, after batting this back and forth a few times, I'm challenging those editors who keep putting that Bulgarian site (http://www.grao.bg) back in as a citation for the city's population. Not because I think it's wrong—I'm sure it isn't—but because we need a citation in English here. Most readers cannot be expected to read Bulgarian, much less understand Cyrillic. I don't think it's too much to ask to provide an English reference; surely there must be several out there.

The population ranking (article says "92nd-largest in the European Union") also needs a citation. Please do not remove the {{fact}} tag until it's provided. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello,

1. In my opinion, it is perfectly legitimate to cite in the Bulgarian original; GRAO is a Bulgarian government agency and those are the latest available - and arguably the most accurate - numbers. (Moreover, Bulgarian is an EU official language!) For your sake, I have translated the citation line into English.

Please note that the same reference is used in the Sofia article. In the event that you keep deleting this reference, please be fair enough to delete it in the Sofia article as well.

2. The EU ranking reference points to a Wikipedia article using 2005 NSI data but I think we should keep it cited as it's clear enough that the numbers come from different years and sources.

February 10, 2007 1:09 am EST

Sincerely, Chicho Ficho (chichoficho@yahoo.com)

OK, at least this time you made an effort to communicate instead of just editing with no explanation. The translation definitely helps.

However, I'm removing the first reference since it's to another Wikipedia article, which is a no-no. Please find this information externally. Thanks. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and fixed the problem with the population ranking. The thing is to use a link to a Wikipedia article, not a reference (you're really not supposed to use other Wikipedia articles as references). Works nicely. +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think citations in English are a requirement at all: often, some very specific information is unavailable in English, or local sources on a given subject are much better and more detailed than those in English. I know it's always better to have a ref in English, but the thing is, it's not always possible :) Regards, Todor →Bozhinov 22:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know all that: I don't know why you're trying to confuse the subject. Since this is the English Wikipedia, it is always preferable to have references in English. And I think in this case, it should not be difficult to find one for the population of one of the largest cities in Bulgaria. If it were some obscure point then yes, if only a Bulgarian reference were available, that would be OK. But that is not the case here.+ILike2BeAnonymous 23:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif

Image:Coat varna new.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population ranking of Varna

Varna is no long the third largest city in Bulgaria. Now its the second!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.203.132.167 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 20 June 2007

Do you have a reference for that? According to all the sources given in this article (and in the article on Plovdiv as well), Plovdiv is still #2 and Varna is third. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You must read the two articles. As you can see the population of Varna is bigger than Plovdiv's. 357,752 is bigger than 341,873 If you read the whole artical about Varna you'll see in the historical population that it's written 530000 inhabitants. So we must tell the people that Plovdiv is the third biggest city in the country. Besides on December 31st last year on the TV news they said that Varna is in fact the second largest city in Bulgaria. Ask some Bulgarians - they'll tell you!!!!!

Well, clearly the population figures in all these article are out of whack, as well as the ranking in the article Largest cities of the European Union by population within city limits, which no longer has Plovdiv at #79 (it's dropped to #82). What is needed are some sourced figures. Can you find some current population figures and post links to them here? That would be very helpful. We need citations, not hearsay like "on the TV news" or "ask some Bulgarians". +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I just checked the current figures for both Varna & Plovdiv on the National Statistical Institute Site of the Republic of Bulgaria. It has the following numbers:

town of Plovdiv, Plovdiv municipality, Plovdiv district: 343662
town of Varna, Varna municipality, Varna district: 311465

I think we should probably plug in those figures. But according to this, the relative ranking of these two cities hasn't changed (i.e., Plovdiv is still #2). +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Listen, I think that this is a paradox. In the article is clearly written that the population of the city is 530000 inhabitants. Hire you are a Site which you must read :http://akcent.hit.bg/arhiv/br136/2-1.html. I hope yo can read in Bulgarian.In fact try to look in the forum in dir bg because the link don't want to work: http://clubs.dir.bg/showthreaded.php?Board=varna&Number=1947160305&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.62.173.196 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 21 June 2007

Sorry, I don't read Bulgarian. We need some English sources. Can you find any? +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll give you the site of the civil registration of Bulgaria: www.grao.bg . These are the other statics about the population of the different towns. We write Varna like this ВАРНА. So when you enter the site you must go firs on Таблици на населението по настоящ и по постоянен адрес : that means tables of the population by adress, after in the list you chose the first line. Another window appears. then you search about Varna ВАРНА. When you find the table about the Varna regoin you look about varna inside between all the towns' names. there is written : ВАРНА | 6 | 354684. I'm really sorry that that is in Bulgarian, but these are the other official data about the population.here you are the site where are the tables: http://www.grao.bg/tna/tab01.html

Like I said, I don't read Bulgarian, and neither can most readers of this (the English Wikipedia) be expected to. What's wrong with the site I cited earlier, the National Statistical Institute Site of the Republic of Bulgaria? It seems as if this is as official a site about Bulgaria as you'll find; it's in English, plus it has a Java interface for customizing the results it displays. Why not use this? +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Please sign your comments.

Hey, guys if you are acquainted with the demographic situation in Varna and if you live in the city you will be assured that Varna takes the second place and is ...i would say considerably larger by population than Plovdiv. I know that officially Plovdiv is larger but the statistics data does not correspond to reality! Varna is one of the few cities in the country that grow and people here have much more opportunities for work, for realization in life, the living standard is higher. There are two cities which grow fastly in Bulgaria and these cities are the two capitals-the official and the sea capital. I dont know who is writing these comments about the population, I dont know if you are foreigners, but I was born in Varna, I`ve been living here for almost 20 years and I find it obvious that the city population is at least 500,000! So please dont believe what official sources say!They dont count the many thousands of people who by documents are inhabitants of other cities but actually live in Varna permanently! Dont talk rubbish if you dont know how they count the population in Bulgaria! :)And what`s wrong with the source that says in Varna live 520,000 people? The mayor himself has said that. He or you knows better how many people live in Varna? Sincerely yours, Ivan from Varna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.67.14 (talk • contribs) 15:53, 17 July 2007

No the polpulation of Varna is only increasing in the summer because of the many seasonal workers.The numbers given by grao are more important because they have in mind the people who have their permenent adress registration in the city and the people who have a present registration.In that case Plovdiv is the second larges city.In the article the population of varna is 357,752 that is incorect because that is the number of the people living in varna municipality which includes other settlements too.The number for Plovdiv is correct because the municipality of Plovdiv includes only the city proper.by the way what makes you think that the population of Plovdiv is not bigger than what is shown in the official data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.72.93.24 (talk • contribs) 22:57, 17 September 2007

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Odesa emblem.gif

Image:Odesa emblem.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif

Image:Coat varna new.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 08:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Varna Coat.gif

Image:Varna Coat.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 20:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop removing {{fact}} tag for metro population

The figure of 400,000 for the "metro" population still has no citation. The lead paragraph simply says "The actual daily population, including commuters, is widely believed to have made it the country's second-largest city.", but this is not the same thing as "metro" population. Please stop removing this tag until a suitable reference is found, preferably in English. I know that a reliable, official Bulgarian source is available in English because I've seen it in articles here, but I don't know how to find it. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 18:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Varna

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Varna's population again

[edit] International festivals, Sea and Memories

[edit] Links

[edit] Twins

[edit] Etymology

[edit] Need proper references for population figures

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif

[edit] Population ranking of Varna

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Odesa emblem.gif

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Coat varna new.gif

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Varna Coat.gif

[edit] Please stop removing {{fact}} tag for metro population

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