Talk:Variations on a Theme by Joseph Haydn

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Variations on a Theme by Joseph Haydn is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, cleanup, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that aren't covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
This article is supported by the Compositions task force.

Hi TheMaestro-- I'm intrigued by your suggestion of a "mystery theme" by Haydn at the end of the Haydn Variations, but you've presented it as a puzzle, not as information that could be useful to a Wikipedia reader. In fact, I admit that I've looked at the score and I can't find any new theme other than simple ascending and descending scales--which could come from anywhere.

So, please look at the score (you can follow the link at end of article) and specify the measure numbers, orchestral parts, and specific work of Haydn that the mystery theme is supposed to be from. Without identification, I don't think a "teaser" item like this is appropriate. --Opus33 16:53, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Opus33 -- Thanks for your comments. This is my first Wiki contribution, and I wondered whether a teaser would be considered appropriate. I am happy to defer to your opinion on the matter

Perhaps rather than "theme" I should have said "fragment," or something with similarly smaller connotations. Yes, scales could come from anywhere; but I've always been curious about mm. 463-464 in the finale. Scales have not been particularly motivic up to that point in the work, and their preponderance at the end always struck me as out of place. Similarly, the sudden appearance of sextuplets is not foreshadowed, and it also seems out of keeping with typical Brahmsian economy. And, with the scales and the triplets combined, we end up with that curious almost-scale with the second degree missing.

My confusion turned to deep satisfaction when I noticed m. 148, at the very end of the variation movement of the "Clock" Symphony.

Now, I don't have any proprietary claim on the connection, but the fact is that I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere.

I'd be interested in your thoughts. If you think it's worth including, I'd like some advice on how best to present it. -- TheMaestro

The resemblance is quite striking--well spotted! We'll never know it wasn't just chance (which is why I put in a cautious "evidently") but it would be nice to think that Brahms put it in on purpose--or, at least, in subconscious awareness of Haydn's example.
Also, a tweak: Haydn pioneered variations for orchestra, but not variations per se. Cheers, Opus33 21:49, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If I may, I find the "evidently" a bit too cautious. For the reasons I cited earlier, those two measures are so out of character with the rest of the piece that they take considerable setting up on Brahms's part in order to create a context in which they would be less jarring (remember, my experience began with finding them jarring). There is no doubt of Brahms's thorough knowledge of Haydn's work, and one didn't have to be a scholar to know the "Clock."

I resisted the urge to speak of Brahms's selection of the passage as reflecting his admiration for Haydn's variation forms. But I think that "Brahms quotes a passage" is a modest claim in light of the evidence. -- TheMaestro

As you please, TM; if you change it I certainly won't edit-war with you. Opus33 22:49, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Many thanks! --TheMaestro

Contents

[edit] Pleyel

I'm scribbling a quick article on Ignaz Pleyel, and I always thought that the theme to the VTJH, ie. the St. Anthony Chorale, had been attributed with reasonable certainty to him (I remember this from grad school, and it's on the internet, but I'm having trouble finding a reliable source). Does anyone else know? For now I'll insert some of the usual weaselage "some scholars believe ..." Antandrus 16:18, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for doing Pleyel, Antandrus; both Sacred Harp and Symphony No. 94 (Haydn) needed him. For St. Anthony Chorale I checked MLA Bibliography and got nothing; perhaps in some book about Brahms? Cool if someday Google succeeds in searching the contents of every published book, as they hope to do. Then we could easily solve toughies like this one. Opus33 05:51, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] references

"Recent scholarship has revealed that... "

To the author of this section:

Do you have any references for this statement? I do not want to question your knowledge per se, but I think one drawback of wikipedia is the lack of references, that inhibits the more professional possibilities of Wikipedia. Your remark about the original composer is nice to read, but without sharing references there cannot be profoundly discussed over this statement, and readers have no reason to believe this statement.

Please refer to verifiability for more information.

Peter--84.193.170.232 14:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


Peter --

You are correct. I should have included a reference.

I'm not sure what I had in mind then; but it surely included the notes of Donald M. McCorkle, as published in the Norton Scores edition of the Variations (ISBN 0-393-09206-2). A footnote on page 28 begins, "Since ca. 1951 the attribution ... to Haydn has been in serious doubt..."

TheMaestro 01:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A couple reverts

  • Resemblance to Brahms's Fourth is original research and not a legal edit by Wikipedia rules (this should ultimately be applied to other material here as well...).
  • It doesn't help the reader to point out that there is no triangle in the piano version; let's give our readers credit for just a tiny bit of intelligence, no?

Opus33 16:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The comparison to the Fourth Symphony might be worth putting back in. The final variation here is a passacaglia, the fourth movement of the Fourth is often called a passacaglia (the symphony page says Brahms called it a "chaconne", but the passacaglia page says that the symphony follows all the rules of a passacaglia). That's at least twice that Brahms has used a specific baroque form in a grand, romantic-era orchestral work. Who else was writing passacaglias in the 1870s and 1880s? A simple mention that Brahms would later use the passacaglia form again in the fourth symphony is not original research in my opinion. DavidRF 22:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First-ever free-standing set of variations for orchestra?

I've just heard a claim that the Variations are the first-ever free-standing set of variations for orchestra. This was via Paul Bevan of ABC Classic FM, whose "facts" are often very wide of the mark. I'd be surprised if there weren't earlier sets of orchestral variations written not as part of a symphony or a suite - this was 1873, after all - but I can't bring to mind any earlier examples just now. Can anyone confirm or provide a counter-example to the claim, and a cite? I guess if it is cited, it needs to go into the article. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)