Talk:Vaps Movement

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Removed the sentence "Estonia is the only country in the world where a fascist group, the Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League (Eesti Vabadussõjalaste Liit; EVL), succeeded in legally obtaining the absolute majority vote of the people." as according to the source in the article provided is untrue and in contradiction with the rest of the article.

Contents 1 Ridiculous 2 lawass 3 Schutzstaffel versus Waffen-SS 4 Holocaust in Estonia 5 Factual accuracy 6 Page blanking 7 Merge 8 League of Liberators 9 Further sources 10 refs

[edit] Ridiculous

This whole article is ridiculous. Its all about organization that by most standars does not qualify as fascist at all. Their support to presidential democracy is not an argument. Article seems to be created simply for POV pushing.--Staberinde 19:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

So it would seem, especially given that it has been non-linked-to for more than six months by now. I'll nominate it for deletion once I've gathered a list of most such articles regarding Estonian history and politics. Digwuren 20:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lawass

There have been a number of edits, citing publications of [1] as source. I have reverted them, as this pressure group does not qualify as a reliable source. Digwuren 15:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

no confirmation for that --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

you reverted the "see also" part --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schutzstaffel versus Waffen-SS

Claims have been made, based on tendentious claims of the above-mentioned so-called 'Law Association', that the Estonian Legion, which was part of the Waffen-SS command structure and consisted mainly of ethnic Estonians, constitutes an example of "Estonian SS".

This is not the case. SS was considered an important national security structure by the Nazis and it was generally considered unacceptable for a non-German person to serve in SS. Non-Germans were, however, drafted into Waffen-SS units, and, on latter days, allowed to volunteer into Waffen-SS, which was essentially a regular army. While its true that its top-level chain of command involved the Schutzstaffel, Waffen-SS was not itself a part of the Nazi ideological apparatus.

Importantly and well-documentedly, the members of the Estonian-ethnicity Waffen-SS units almost never joined out of ideological subscription to Nazism, fascism or any other particular political ideology, but were either drafted or considered this to be the only reasonable way to fight against Soviet Union's second invasion, which was perceived as a clear and present danger after the outcomes of the first invasion of 1940-1941. Thus, it is improper to consider these units examples of fascism in Estonia, and thus, these claims are irrelevant in the context of this article.

I am going to remove these claims. Digwuren 00:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You want to say that Waffen-SS has no connections to nazi-fascism? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I am pointing out that serving in the Waffen-SS units did not mean subscribing to Nazism or any other fascism, and assertions to the contrary are incorrect. Digwuren 12:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

also, do you see the map? are only the Germans responsible for that?? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You're dishonestly trying to create a false dilemma between Waffen-SS and "only Germans". You should not do that.

While I can not, at this time, support it with references to reliable sources, my understanding is that Estonian units of Waffen-SS did not participate in Holocaust; however, as discussed below, some ethnic Estonians were involved in it through other organisations, and were responsible for doing what's depicted on the map. Digwuren 07:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

waffen SS made part of the overall SS, for additional information. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Waffen-SS was under command of SS officers. It was, however, separately trained, isolated from the ideological indoctrination and the foreign units were generally distrusted by the Nazi leadership. This is documented in the article, by the way. Pay attention to the parts about special renaming of the Waffen-SS units, and the denial of the "too honourable for savages" SS insignia to several foreign Waffen-SS units. Digwuren 12:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

from the article about the division: In 2002, the Estonian government forced the removal of a monument to the division erected near the Estonian city of Pärnu. The inscription "To all Estonian soldiers who died in the second war for the liberation of the fatherland and a free Europe in 1940-1945" was the cause of the controversy, as it allegedly promoted anti-Semitism. so even the Ee. government acknowledges its connection to anti-semitism, thus fascism. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 12:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

again: do you see the map? are only the Germans responsible for that?? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 12:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

In Estonia, there was approx. 4500 Jews on 1938. Soviets deported around 500 to Siberia, very few of them returned. About 2500 more flew to Soviet Union before German occupation (some also to Sweden, afaik). So Estonia had about 1500 Jews when German troops arrived, those were murdered within 3 months.

As for the article, it needs a total rewrite. Right now there is grand total of one citation - and another one to highly unreliable Russian hate-promotion site, that needs to be removed. Material from there does not belong to Wikipedia. Also, out of five sections in article, only one - "Pre-World War II" - is relevant to the topic, rest needs to be thoroughly sourced or to be deleted from the article as irrelevant and unsourced POV pushing. DLX 15:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I support rewrite or page splitting if some of the parts are out of topic, but not removal --TheFEARgod (Ч) 01:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holocaust in Estonia

What we really need is an article on Holocaust in Estonia. A good source is the book Suur Häving by Eugenia Gurin-Loov, published in Estonia in 1994. In addition to the 921 Jews who chose to stay in Estonia, 20,000 Jews were imported to labor camps Estonia. These were all murdered before the liberation of Estonia. Except for the 2000 murdered by Germans at Klooga most were executed by Estonians. All paperwork related to the execution of the "Final Solution" is in Estonian. -- Petri Krohn 20:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

as this page mostly deals with this topic now, I agree. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 01:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, since you can read Estonian, see [2]. DLX 06:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm pointing out an typo in the article: it says "juba 1914. aasta lõpuks". Obviously, it should read 1941. Digwuren 07:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The material that currently keeps added and deleted to this article appears to be fine seed for that article. Digwuren 13:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factual accuracy

There was this passage in the article:

Estonian auxiliary police participated in the extermination of the Jews in Estonia and Pskov region of Russia and provided guards for concentration camps for Jews and Soviet POWs (Jägala, Vaivara, Klooga, Lagedi), in all of which prisoners were killed. The 36th Estonian Police Battalion took part in mass shooting of Jews in a Byelorussian town of Novogrudki on 7 August, 1942. The 37th, 38th, 40th, 286th, 288th Estonian battalions operated against the partisans in the Pskov, Luga, Gdov regions of Russia and Belarus. The 658th battalion participated in punitive operations against civilians near the town of Kingisepp and the village of Kerstovo (the Leningrad region) and burnt down the villages Babino, Habalovo and Cigirinka ^[1].

Unfortunately, the source does not appear to match the summary. While it does describe activities of Estonian police battalions, it never mentions Babino, for example. I'm putting up a factual accuracy tag; this summary needs to be reworked. Digwuren 07:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was my edit - changed reference (was to really weird Russian embassy in Denmark page) and then went to eat, planning to rewrite that sentence afterwards. From current source:

The Commission has reviewed the role of Estonian military units and police battalions in n effort to identify the specific units which took part in the following actions:
1) escorting Jews deported from Vilnius to camps in Estonia.
2) providing guards for the Vaivara camp complex, the camps at Tartu, Jägala, Tallinn, and camps for Soviet POWs, in all of which prisoners were killed.
3) guarding the transit camp for Jews at Izbica in Poland, where a significant number of Jews were killed.
4) providing guards to prevent the escape of Jews being rounded up in several towns in Poland, including Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszow, and Tarnopol.
5) the roundup and mass shooting of the Jewish population of at least one town in Belarus (Novogrudok).

The 36th Police Battalion participated on August 7, 1942 in the gathering together and shooting of almost all the Jews still surviving in the town of Novogrudok. In the published records, this unit was described as fighting against partisans at the time. The Commission believes that although there clearly were numerous engagements between police units and partisans, "fighting against partisans" and "guarding prisoner of war camps" were at times ways of describing participation in actions against civilians, including Jews.

Although there is little documentary evidence on this subject, individuals also reported the presence of Estonian units as guards at Lodz, Tarnopol, Przemysl and Rzeszow. Major deportations to the death camp at Belzec from the ghettoes of the three latter towns took place between July and September 1942. However, neither the dates mentioned, nor the testimony given, directly implicate Estonian units in these actions.

Research has also disclosed evidence of crimes against humanity, and acts of genocide, in which the 286th, 287th and 288th Police Battalions participated at various times in their existence. These include the killing of prisoners at camps in Estonia, and participation in what are described as "raids" on villages in Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania. The 287th was on duty at the Klooga camp in September 1944, when the last surviving prisoners were killed. It is not clear whether the actual killings were carried out by German SS guards, by members of a reserve unit of the Estonian SS, or by members of the 287th. It is however clear that the 287th was actively involved in gathering together the prisoners, guarding them, and escorting them to their death. The unit was withdrawn to Germany and most of its men were sent to the 20th Estonian SS Division.

That is the information from that source about the passage in question. DLX 07:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Rewrote that paragraph now, quoting just the numbered list. DLX 07:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page blanking

Can you prove that Holocaust, Nazi divisions and such things are not connected to fascism --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

when the article will grow a lot, we will be able to split it. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust happened (and would have happened) regardless of the prevalence/absence of fascism/fascists in Estonia. I would also recommend anyone before inaccurately claiming that Estonia/Estonians had a history of strong anti-Semitism prior to WW2 to read more about the history of Jews in Estonia. Shalom, --3 Löwi 13:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

About half of Estonian Jewry lived in the capital Tallin, and the rest primarily in the towns of Tartu, Valga, Parnu, Narva, Viljandi, Rakvere, Voru, and Nomme. They were considered a national minority, and enjoyed a certain degree of autonomy. From the mid-1930s, when the Omakaitse adherents gained power, demands were made to reduce the Jewish role in the economy. [3] I found that (2nd paragraph) --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"From the mid-1930s, when the Omakaitse adherents gained power" is exactly the kind of sentence which indicates that neither its author, nor whoever takes it seriously, possesses even trivial knowledge about Estonian history. It simply does not make sense, as Omakaitse was created only in 1941. Konstantin Päts and other people close to him who gained power in the mid-1930s never even had a chance to become "Omakaitse adherents", as by 1941 the Soviets had either executed or deported them from Estonia. I have been following your recent Estonia-related edits, TheFEARGod, and without fear of any God can tell you that most of them do not qualify for much more than insults to intelligence. Your admitted hate of fascism is okay, but please do not edit articles about things that you have no clue about. Regards, --Klamber 20:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the author of that sentence as you can fin it here: [4] 2nd paragraph, 2nd line. You are right, I do not know what is Omakaitse, but I included that part because it was talking about anti-semitism.

also, I'm not working at the S. Wiesenthal center i haven't included that sentence into that site, if you are still doubtful. Please don't hurry with accusations in the future as it can be proven false, like this one. Cheers, --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"connected to fascism" is red herring, as I have explained above and in Talk:Neo-Nazism in Estonia. You are, possibly deliberately, possibly out of ignorance, confusing several distant issues into a synthetic whole, in an obvious attempt to push a hateful WP:POV. Please do not do that, as it constitutes severe violation of Wikipedia policies, most importantly WP:NPOV. Digwuren 13:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

yes, I hate fascism and its adherents. You are right but let's prevent censorship and loss of data. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

As the Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany article is rather scarce we could merge something. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what? Only truly valid section in this article, Pre-World War II, has nothing to do with Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany. Holocaust is already covered there, Controversies today doesn't belong there. To be honest, I see little point in this whole article atm, except as a basis for an article about Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League. DLX 14:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League's categorization as fascist organization is disputable(yes, there were some similarities but we probably could also find some similarities between modern russia and some fascist state, that does not mean that modern russia is fascist) so I would suggest to create separate article about that organization and move pre-WW II part(or atleast majority of it) there.--Staberinde 15:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I will transfer something to the occupation page now. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we reached a "deal". The best way is to change the article's name to Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League and things can be then discussed properly about that org. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] League of Liberators

An article/stub about Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League already exists, as League of Liberators. Current article has more content, but it seems that League of Liberators is the official English name for the movement - so I recommend moving the contents from this article to League of Liberators and making this into redirect. Unless anyone opposes this, I will do so in a few hours. DLX 07:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Some sources in English:

• Inflation as a Cause for the Downfall of Democracy (pdf), Google HTML
• Chronology 1934

Also, Liberator's League seems to be used, but just in one source that I cannot access: [5]. DLX 07:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved now to League of Liberators. Tried to merge both articles a bit (this one had better lead), needs some more work, though - will try to do that later. DLX 09:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi DLXthe Estonian Vaps movement also 'Union of Participants in the Estonian War of Independence' are the official translations used by the http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/conclusions.htm. I think we should go with this and then later perhaps point out other names they've been referred to. What this organization wasnt about -like usual Veteran organizations are about, therefore the Soviet/Russian translation available on the internet is not appropriate - Estonian War of Independence Veterans League etc. Also League of Liberators is abstract and not an "official" interpretation of the name , --Termer 03:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Termer has a point. Estonian, an agglutinative language, can fit a lot more shades of meaning into every word than English, thus, it's sometimes inevitable that precise translation requires using more words than in original. Thus, I support moving the article to Union of Participants in the Estonian War of Independence, and leaving League of Liberators a redirect. It might perhaps be useful to explicitly explain the difference of nuance in a trailing section of the article, too. Digwuren 09:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

As a clarification, I prefer this particular name over the former Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League mainly because this name can be sourced to the History Commission. If a more succinct name can be sourced, or a good name of more notable source can be found, I could support that. Digwuren 09:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I would rename the article -Vaps Movement- , the way it was historically called, also the way it has an entrance in Encyclopædia Britannica ^[2] and then list in the article all possible variations of the full name in other languages...-League of Freedom Fighters etc.--Termer 09:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I would consider this reasonably unique name acceptable. Digwuren 19:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is this discussion of Waffen SS etc up here? It looks like off topic trolling to me and I think it should be removed into archives as not relevant to the article.--Termer 09:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further sources

I wonder if anyone can find an online copy of "Impact of National Socialist Rule: the Case of Estonia" by Ruth Büttner. I could only find it as html from Google cache: [6], but I'd really not cite article from there. DLX 13:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] refs

1. ^ Conclusions of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity
2. ^ http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-623213/Vaps

An short article of Estonian Encyclopedia exist in Estonian Wikisource. [7]. Organization's newspaper is also digitatised and available (with many other Estonian newspapers) at [8]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk) 14:36, August 30, 2007 (UTC)