Talk:Vanity Fair caricatures

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[edit] Discussion

Great idea. Keep up the good work :-) Drutt 19:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm just collating 1871 onwards ready to do a big edit! Thanks for adding the links, I've not come up with a way to do that automatically for the subjects yet: suggestions on a postcard... Richard.shakeshaft 18:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Does a comprehensive list of cartoonists exist anywhere? The best I've found is this, though it's missing several names. Drutt 20:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Not that I know of - and that list is more comprehensive than the one I had! I think that this certainly needs incorporating into the page, and links to the artists providing as I have started doing. Richard.shakeshaft 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

All of the data that I have is now on the page. I have left blanks where I have no information, so hopefully it can be filled in by someone else... The data I had to start with was formatted very differently so I have had to do a lot of tidying up and trying to make sure things are formatted uniformly. I am sure that some things will have slipped through my net, but I have been staring at the data for too long to try and do any more tidying! Richard.shakeshaft 15:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work. I'm slowly sorting through my collection of prints and will gradually tidy the article as I go. It may be helpful to break them up into yearly subsections for ease of editing. Drutt 14:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I see the problem: you would then lose the sortability of the list. I'm going to do the following: change date format from 10 Jan 1900 to 1900-01-10, so that the list sorts correctly (I'll write a script to do it automatically). Drutt 15:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Glad you realised the sorting issue, as that was indeed the reason for uploading the data in one hit, although it does make for a large page. As for the date sorting, it appears to work ascending in the current format, but not descending. Maybe I should have tested it further before assuming dd mmm yyyy was the right choice... Sorry! Richard.shakeshaft 17:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the date format. Next thing (I know nothing about wiki sort tables): is there a way of (eg.) sorting "John Smith" as "Smith, John"? Drutt 18:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Great stuff (and for the additions!). I don't think there's a way of sorting as you would like without reformatting the data. I did consider this, but I felt that it was more useful to be able to see who the person was. Personally, I envisaged the sorting being of most use for the date of publication and the artist as the standard 'search' function would find the subject of the cartoon. Richard.shakeshaft 21:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HCO?

Do we know who HCO (or HLG, HCG--difficult to be sure) was? Drutt 19:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Not at present... but I'll add it to the list of outstanding questions. I have realised that the list of artists (based on the URL you found) needs to be updated to include the other artists listed in the table. Richard.shakeshaft 21:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drawl

On the wikipedia page on the magazine Vanity fair appears a caricature by Drawl of Pr Kruger published in 1899. Why neither the caricature of Kruger is listed here nor the name of Drawl in the list of caricaturist. I am interested in knowing who was Drawl as I possess the Baden Powell caricature by Drawl published on the 5th of july 1900. Please answer hereafter. A french anglomaniac...

The article definitely needs expanding. This long list should be completed also. This link gives a description of various artists there including:
Stephanus Johannes Paulus Kruger. Drawl. March 8, 1900. "Oom Paul."

There was no link at the image description, so no more clues there. I will check a reference sometime soon. ? Fred|? discussion|? contributions 22:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello there, thanks for drawing attention to that strange gap in 1900. I've tried to fill it out as best as possible, but some entries remain undetermined. I'm afraid I have no idea who Drawl was. Also, there appear to be two prints associated with July 12 1900. Can anyone confirm this? Drutt
Problem solved: Buller was January 18 1900 not July 12. Drutt (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I would suggest that a better reference is needed than the couple of art galleries I have found. Incidentally, I removed 1.5 thousand reiterations of the link to ape and spy. The page is over 200 KB and took my computer sometime to load, unfortunately this may need to be rectified. Any ideas? ? Fred|? discussion|? contributions 23:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes this is a serious problem, but I don't see an easy way out of it. We could in extremis remove the Caption and Notes columns, but I'd clearly prefer not to do that if at all possible. Drutt 13:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I've streamlined the article in various ways: removal of remaining signature links, date links, artist names, superfluous formatting, punctuation and spacing. I don't see it ever getting smaller than this (160kb). Drutt 14:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There was a great big bright red (-49,769) on my watchlist, well done. The list is useful and the info should stay, I can see no way of splitting it either. It is a good deal more managable at least. ? Fred|? discussion|? contributions 14:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 Some english friend, I mentionned my research on Drawl drew my attention to the fact that Drawl was the anagram of Ward
 adding the L of Leslie making a play on words "drôle" having two meanings in French funny or stange.  What do you 
  think of it ? The french anglomaniac...

Interesting, L. Ward reversed is indeed Drawl. That's unlikely to be a coincidence. I've no idea why he would use a pseudonym. Drutt 21:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

 Any interest in a bio of Prosper d'Epinay ? I could translate it for you. The french anglomaniac...

[edit] Encouragement!

It's great to see the page developing and people taking an interest! Thanks, Drutt, for all of the work you're putting into it with the links, adding some of the missing data, and tidying up what seem to be numerous errors in my original data! Richard.shakeshaft 21:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Every now and again I pop back to look at the page, and Drutt's contribution is absolutely amazing! Hats off to your research, editing, and constant tidying of the list! Richard.shakeshaft (talk) 20:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, nearly done now. Just a few loose ends to tie up. Drutt (talk) 01:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

I don't get it. Isn't this page Original Research? Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 08:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand, are you referring to the speculation about the identity of "Drawl"? Drutt (talk) 13:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

In order to simplify and reduce the size of the article I've moved the introduction and external links to Vanity Fair (magazine, historical), and the list of artists to Vanity Fair artists. Drutt (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple prints

The following editions appear to have several prints associated:

  • 1881-12-07 Parnell and Dillon / Gladstone and Bradlaugh
  • 1901-01-31 Provost of Eton / Queen Victoria
  • 1905-05-25 Roberts / Stevenson
  • 1906-09-05 Loder / Gant
  • 1909-10-06 Shackleton / Lunn
  • 1909-12-23 Tennant / Carlile
  • 1909-12-30 Harris / Vickers
  • 1910-01-06 Barker / Belilios / du Cros / Younger
  • 1911-06-21 King George / Brown

Drutt (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The World

As an aside, I've come across a couple of pictures produced by Leslie Ward for The World: Duncan McKinnon and the Duke of Rutland. Drutt (talk) 23:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, Captain Scott in 1910 Drutt (talk) 01:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's another: Lloyd-George, 1909 Drutt (talk) 05:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs Starr

Is the lady pictured in the 1869-02-20 print Mary Ann Starr or Susan Mary Saurin? I suspect the latter. Starr seems to have been a rather unpopular figure, and is unlikely to have been made the subject of a sympathetic caricature. Drutt (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've since managed to get hold of a copy of the text of this print and can confirm it is Starr. Drutt (talk) 01:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unresolved issues

  • Print numbers are not listed
  • Many series numbers remain undetermined; there are also some contradictions in the numbering (eg. two Sovereigns 08)
  • The horse portraits Cyllene, Sceptre/Maid of Corinth and Santry need dating
  • There are many gaps after 1912; I don't know which of these represent missing prints
  • Individuals featured in several of the double-page group pictures need to be identified (1883-11-27, 1886-11-30, 1887-12-06, 1891-12-05, 1894-12-06, 1896-06-11, 1896-11-26, 1897-06-03, 1898-12-01, 1899-11-23, 1901-11-28)
  • Many prints are unsigned, and/or their artists unknown
  • The caption of 1905-10-19 (Bowles) is incomplete

Drutt (talk) 21:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unresolved issues II

  • Judges 25, 26, 41 are missing
  • Judges 67-69 are erroneously numbered 60-62*
  • There are two Men 366 and no Men 370*
  • There are two Men 388, 576, 825, 829
  • Men 950-959 are erroneously numbered 940-949*
  • After Men 1328 the numbering jumps to 2270
  • There are two Princes 8 and no Princes 7*
  • There are two Princes 9 and no Princes 10*
  • There are two Statesmen 535, 730, 755
  • Statesmen 739, 740, 742 are missing
  • There are two Sovereigns 8
  • There is no Sovereigns 22
  • There are two People 1
  • The category "Our Celebrities" continues the "Men" numbering
  • The artists responsible for the following are unknown: 1908-12-23 (de Lara), 1911-06-07 (Alexandra), 1913-08-27 (Bebel), 1901-12-26 (Cuch Behar), 1893-01-21 (Spain), 1881-12-07 (Gladstone & Bradlaugh)
  • I don't know where to place this print (DM Gant).
  • Two very similar images of the Prince of Wales appear to have the same date, 1878-12-14: [1] and [2]
  • Due to limited space, I have not listed all of the people featured in some of the double prints

Errors marked with an asterisk are due to misprinted numbers, and could be corrected easily. However I have hesitated to do this because it may cause as much confusion as it resolves. Drutt (talk) 07:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects

I have made heavy use of redirects in order to keep this page at a reasonable size. Please do not replace them with direct links to the articles. Drutt (talk) 08:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)