Talk:Vandals

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vandals was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: No date specified. To provide a date use: {{DelistedGA|insert date in any format here}}


This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article has an assessment summary page.

Contents

[edit] Miscellaneous

Their name became a byword for meaningless destruction. This propaganda came up many centuries later. Does anyone know, who it was that came up with this and why? I read,that this was started by a 17st or 18st century Frenchmen.

Hmmm. It was generally known that the Vandals had, like the Visigoths, sacked Rome (410, Visigoths; 455, Vandals). In the 16th and 17th century English sources they are usually part of a list (Huns, Goths and Vandals), like Dryden's

Till Goths, and Vandals, a rude Northern race, 
Did all the matchless Monuments deface

I don't know how early it turns into *just* Vandals. It might be earlier in French. I'd hesitate to call it propaganda - just exagerration. --MichaelTinkler

ps: all your base are belong to us

"In some parts of the West Coast of America, the term Vandal is used as a derogatory epithet for Blacks because of their alleged destructiveness in the inner city Ghettoes of America."

Which parts? According to whom? This sounds shady - I'd like to remove it, is there any justification for this? Mark Richards 21:42, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Mark Richards, could you please provide an academic reference for this statement. Stephen MacCaul

"Their presence was recorded between the Oder and Vistula rivers in Germania in AD 98 by Tacitus and by later historians." Under what name? Not as "Vandals". Someone is jumping to hopeful but unwarranted conclusions I think. Which "later historians?" --Wetman 07:25, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] for future reference

the Vandals in the chronicon of Hermannus Contractus.

  • 406 Wandali, Suevi et Alani trajecto Rheno III Kal. Januarii Gallias hostiliter ingressi.
  • 409 Wandali, Alani et Suevi in die Oct. Hispanias occupant.
  • 418 Pugna inter Gundericum Wandalorum regem et Ermenricum [al., Hermericum] Suevorum regem facta.
  • 421 Constantius imperator Ravennae moritur. Bellum inter Wandalos et Gothos oritur.
  • 427 Bonifacius in Africa pollens duces quosdam contra se dimicantes occidit; contra quem evocatis barbaris mare ad id tempus ignotum pervium efficitur. Unde gens effera Wandalorum, de Hispaniis exclusa a Gothis, freto trajecto Africam invadens, gladio, praeda et igne miserabiliter debacchatur, interfecto prius Ermengario [al. Hermigarius] rege Suevorum, postquam in Hispania XIX annis debacchati sunt. (al. a. 429.) (prototypical "vandalism"!)
  • 434 Wandali jam nono anno Africam infestantes, pactum a Romanis postulant.
  • 435 Pax cum Wandalis facta, data eis ad habitandum Africae portione Aetius Gundicharium regem Burgundionum bello obtinuit, supplicantique pacem concessit, qua tamen non diu potitus ab Hunnis cum gente sua peremptus est.
  • 442 Hunnis Thracias et Illyricum saeva populatione vastantibus, exercitus contra Wandalos missus, ad tuitionem Orientalium revocatur. Valentinianus imperator cum Geiserico rege Wandalorum pacem firmat, Africa inter utrumque certis spatiis divisa.
  • 454 Ipso anno, Geisericus rex Wandalorum, de Africa trajiciens, Romam quia sine imperatore erat, invasit, eamque opibus cunctis exspoliavit. Hucusque Prosper chronica sua perduxit.
  • 465 Wandali per Marcellinum in Sicilia victi, caesique sunt et fugati.
  • 477 Geisericus rex Wandalorum, post XXXVII et paulo plus invasae Carthaginis annos, tandem moriens tyrannidi suae finem fecit. Post quem non melior filius Hunnericus regnavit annis fere VIII.
  • 484 Hunnericus, rex Wandalorum, divinitus percussus, scatens vermibus exspiravit. Post quem fratris ejus filius Gundamundus regnavit annis fere XII, qui non multo post Eugenium episcopum revocavit.
  • 490 Ipso anno Gundamundus rex Wandalorum pacem cum Romanis fecit.
  • 494 Gundamundus rex Wandalorum, persuadente Eugenio archiepiscopo, tandem post X annos omnes catholicos episcopos de exsilio revocavit et diu clausas ecclesias pace reddita aperuit.
  • 496 Gundamundo rege Wandalorum defuncto, Trasamundus XXVI paulo plus annis pro eo regnavit.
  • 522 In Africa mortuo tandem Trasamundo rege Wandalorum Ariano, Heldericus pro eo regnavit annis VIII; qui statim in principio regni ecclesias diu clausas aperuit, et omnes catholicos de exsiliis revocare studuit, et optatam Ecclesiae pacem restituit.
  • 530 In Africa occiso male Helderico rege Wandalorum catholico, Geilamer regnum invadens tanta feritate in catholicos et in omnes debacchatur, ut nec parentibus suis parceret.
  • 534 Belisarius patricius a Justiniano imperatore missus Wandalorum gentem in Africa bello victam delevit, Geilamerum regem eorum captum Constantinopolim abduxit, et Carthaginem reipublicae restituit post annos XCIV ex quo a Geiserico capta est. Geilamer quoque post aliquot annos a Justiniano Augusto comes effectus, et in terminos Parthorum ad eos arcendos constitutus est.


the Vandals in the chronicon of IDATII.

"[]Gallaeciam Wandali occupant et Suevi, sitam in extremitate Oceani maris occidua. Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur.[]

"Cui succedens Wallia in regno, cum patricio Constantio pace mox facta, Alanis et Wandalis Silingis, in Lusitania et Baetica sedentibus adversatur.[]

(Fredibalum, regem gentis Wandalorum, sine ullo certamine ingeniose captum ad imperatorem  
 Honorium destinat.)

Wandali Silingi in Baetica per Walliam regem omnes exstincti.[]

Alani qui Wandalis et Suevis potentabantur, adeo caesi sunt a Gothis, ut exstincto Atace [Addace] rege ipsorum, pauci qui superfuerant, abolito regni nomine, Gunderici, regis Wandalorum, qui in Gallaecia resederat, se patrocinio subjugarent.[]

Inter Gundericum Vandalorum, et Hermericum Suevorum reges certamine orto, Suevi in Nervasi [Ms., Nerbasis] montibus obsidentur a Wandalis.[]

 Wandali Suevorum obsidione dimissa, instante Asterio Hispaniarum comite, sub vicario      
 Maurocello, aliquantis Bracarae in exitu suo occisis, relicta Gallaecia ad Baeticam
 transierunt.[]

Castinus magister militum cum magna manu et auxiliis Gothorum, bellum in Baetica Wandalis infert: quos cum ad inopiam vi obsidionis arctaret, adeo ut se tradere jam pararent, inconsulte publico certamine confligens, auxiliorum fraude deceptus ad Tarraconam [Ms., Terraconam] victus effugit.[]

Wandali Balearicas insulas depraedantur: deinde Carthagine Spartaria, et Hispali eversa et Hispaniis depraedatis, Mauritaniam invadunt.[]

(Olymp. CCCII.) Gundericus, rex Wandalorum, capta Hispali, cum impie elatus manus in ecclesiam civitatis ipsius extendisset, mox Dei judicio daemone correptus interiit. Cui Gaisericus frater succedit in regno. Qui ut aliquorum relatio habet, effectus apostata de fide catholica in Arianam dictus est transisse perfidiam[]

Gaisericus, rex de Baeticae provinciae littore, cum Wandalis omnibus, eorumque familiis, mense Maio ad Mauritaniam, et Africam relictis transit Hispaniis. Qui prius quam pertransiret, admonitus Hermigarium Suevum vicinas in transitu suo provincias depraedari, recursu cum aliquantis suis facto, praedantem in Lusitania consequitur.[]"

[edit] Vandals vs Finns

Interestingly enough both Vandal and Finn may mean originally the same thing: wanderer or to wander. See for example this entry from the German Wikipedia: [1]. Although I'm not saying that the Vandals would be in any modern sense Finns, it's interesting that in southern Finland there is a place and a river called Vantaa. The river leads up to the lake Vanaja which is in the heartlands of ancient Häme. It's also possible - to make the matter even more confusing - that the "Vends", a tribe in what nowadays is Latvia, were Finnic. Even Russia is called Venäjä in Finnish and "Veneland" (Venemaa) in Estoninan ... Vanaland/Vanaheim in Ynglinga saga. My non-expert hypothesis is that those Germanic peoples who had settled down called "wandering peoples" in general, perhaps slash-and-burn agriculturalists or hunter-gatherers (as the "Sami Finns" up north), Finns/Vandals/Vends/Wends. That could explain the wide spreading of the name all the way from Norway to Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.148.198.61 (talk • contribs)

Maybe, but this is original research and has no place in an article of an encyclopedia. The Ogre 14:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] modern vandal versus ancient vandal

Did the more common meaning of the word "vandal" come about because of the destruction the Vandals caused? Or was it the other way round or a complete coincidence? -- Natalinasmpf 03:06, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See my note to the year 427 above:
Unde gens effera Wandalorum, de Hispaniis exclusa a Gothis, freto trajecto, Africam invadens, gladio, praeda et igne miserabiliter debacchatur
"whence the brutalized tribe of the Vandals, pushed from Spain by the Goths, tore straight into Africa, devastating it pitifully by the sword, by plundering and torching"
I do think the connection is obvious... dab (ᛏ) 08:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Most tribal names are given in the plural in the article title. Furthermore, already most of the links link to Vandals, which then redirects to Vandal. I have tried to do this myself, but I don't seem to ba able to do it from the entry on the WP:RM page.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Common term for the people. – AxSkov (☏) 09:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. "Vandal" suggests a language article. --Wetman 20:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support —Michael Z. 2005-09-15 19:14 Z

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • We take it for granted that fixing double redirects is being considered an inherent part of the move. --Wetman 20:49, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Catholics??

In the subsection "Africa" there is a reference of prosecution of "catholics". This is not accurate. During the 5th century there existed no "catholics": the great schism took place in the circa 1050. The point the author of the text is trying to make is the distinction between "canonical" christians and the "heretic" Donatists. I don't know how to name "canonical" christians (Catholics is just plain innaccurate) so I didnt edit it. If anyone knows the proper name to refer to "canonical" 5th century christians, please edit. Michalis Famelis 22:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

The term Catholic(katholikos from katholou -- throughout the whole, i.e., universal) is first recorded in the 2nd century AD(in refernce to Christianity and the church that is). And later in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD becomes a word of distinction for "canonical" churchs. Noteably among the greeks.

In the "Catechetical Discourses" of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 347) he insists on the one hand (sect. 26): "And if ever thou art sojourning in any city, inquire not simply where the Lord's house is--for the sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens, houses of the Lord--nor merely where the church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of the holy body the mother of us all.

St Augustine even defined the Catholic Church in 397:

n the Catholic Church ... there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

So a refernce to the persicution of 'Catholics' in the 6th century isn't wholly apocraphal. Though if the average church goer called themselves as such is questionable. The term Catholic was't some magic invention bred from the Greet East-West Schism of 1054. Conversly neither was "Orthodox." Orthodox meaning 'right beliver.' Both existed long before the schisms of the 9th and 11th centuries. -Than

The phrasing of "sought internal peace with the Catholics" sounds like biased hogwash. No doubt there were accurate historical conditions for their actions and not some mystical 'get right with me' mythology.

[edit] Vandal physical characteristics

I wonder what the ancient Vandal civilization would look like. Would they look Asian, like Mongols or Huns? or Germanic? Norse? North African? or some mix? does anyone have any information that we could add to the article? They would look like Germans that is where they were from until the Huns pushed them accross the frozen Rhine in 406

[edit] Andalusian dialect

“Some traces may remain in Andalusian dialect, the southernmost group of Spanish dialects,”

Can someone say what traces are these? Could you give some examples?

[edit] Delisted GA

This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 09:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Failure of African kingdom because of "lack of religion and racial unity"

Article notes: "the African kingdom of the Vandals soon began to decay from the lack of religion and racial unity between the two populations". Can we have a reference for this? Supporting evidence? Sounds like this text has been dredged up from some nineteenth century text book! feels like unsubstantiated rubbish. If the kingdom fell apart because the people didn't believe in God, then give me evidence. If the kingdom fell apart because of racist factionalist fighting, give me proof. Otherwise delete this section. It sounds very shakey and unproven to me --mgaved 09:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree. There's very little internal information on the vandal kingdom in North Africa.--Wetman 10:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I understood the line as "lack of religious (unity) and racial unity." Still needs source, though.

[edit] New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

Hello,

WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.

I rated the Vandals article: B-Class, with the following comments (see link to ratings summary page in the Ethnic groups template atop this talk page):

  • Good coverage of topic.
  • Needs infobox.
  • Needs inline citations.

You can give this article (and any other article within the WikiProject) a rating, as described below.

-->How to assess articles

Revisions of assessment ratings can be made by assigning an appropriate value via the class parameter in the WikiProject Ethnic groups project banner {{Ethnic groups}} that is currently placed at the top of Ethnic groups articles' talk pages. Quality assessment guidelines are at the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system page. After rating the article, please provide a short summary to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses. To add the summary, please edit this article's ratings summary page. A link to this page can be found in the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the article's talk page.

Please see the Project's article rating and assessment scheme for more information and the details and criteria for each rating value. A brief version can be found at Template talk:Ethnic groups. You can also enquire at the Ethnic groups Project's main discussion board for assistance.

Another way to help out that could be an enjoyable pastime is to visit Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles, find an interesting-looking article to read, and carefully assess it following those guidelines.

Thanks!
-- --Ling.Nut 13:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roland Steinacher ?

Roland Steinacher in his (2002) 200+ pages paper not even tray to sugest that names Vandalia and Vandals are not similar. As suggested by editor

Welshes names Hallingdal or Vandalia are more similar to name Vandals?

a) Similarities of names have suggested homelands for the Vandals in Vandalia, ...
b) Similarities of names have suggested homelands for the Vandals in Norway (Hallingdal), ...

Another obvious false statement by Friendly_Neighbour Who wrote No, the name "Vandals" for Wenden is a late medieval misconception.

 796 - 476 = 320 , 1453 - 796 = 657 , 657>>320.

Friendly_Neighbour cannot see that number 600 is slightly bigger than 300. Nasz 09:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Can you say what are you trying to prove here? Especially with the numerology? I gave a link to a whole PhD thesis about the perceptions (and mis-perceptions) of Vandals from Middle Ages to 18th century (the same author later made a journal paper from the thesis but it's not available on-line). Already in the preface he writes Mittelalterliche Autoren verwendeten auch die Form Wandali für die Slawen/Wenden. Dieser Namensgebrauch konnte in der Forschung bisher nicht zureichend erklärt werden. Ziel des zweiten Kapitels dieser Arbeit war es, eine Erklärung für dieses Phänomen zu entwickeln which means "Medieval authors used also the form Wandali for the Slawen/Wenden. This name use has not be explained in the research so far. The goal of the second chapter of this work was it to develop an explanation for this phenomenon". What else do you need? If you do not know German you may help yourself with Bablelfish copying and pasting fragments from Chapter Two from the file to an on-line translator. Friendly Neighbour 11:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
If you will use Babelfish be careful about the word "turns" which is a mis-translation of "Wenden". But the end result is not bad. I'll give here a fragment of page 113 translated with Babelfish with only minimal stylistic corrections by me: "The equation Wenden = Vandalen comes from the difficulties to classify the ethnic landscape of Eastern Europe in the early Middle Ages. It was formed before the time, when the ethnogenese of the Slavs in the East had reached a stage, which showed her as groups with a specific identity". Which probably closes the Wendan = Vandals idea. The only mistake I made was writing that the mis-conception comes from late Middle Ages. I should have written early. Sorry for that. BTW, did the numerology part of your edit have something to do with this? Friendly Neighbour 11:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
F: Can you say what are you trying to prove here? Especially with the numerology?
N: I just showing you, that you are misleading. You wrote, your quote: 'No, the name "Vandals" for Wenden is a late medieval misconception.
this is not late medival. Do you see it now ?
Do you want to now say?: Ok is not late medieval. YES/NO ?
If not could you more elaborate on Why so many medival kings and historian were wrong << according to 2002 Phd thesis , thesis even published in a journal.

I think it will be also productive if you redefine concept of HISTORICAL SOURCE.

Nasz 10:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] December 12, 2006 edits by Nasz

I reverted the edits. The reasons are multiple:

  • The style of In 2002 Phd student wrote that medieval authors are wrong is clearly unencyclopedic (bad grammar of the sentence is easy to correct but it still would not be a encyclopedia compatible text).
  • The whole PhD thesis referred is about the ideas about Vandals published between the Middle Ages and 18th century. Saying it is about "medieval authors" that "were wrong" is a inexcusable oversimplification.
  • the reason for adding the wiki-ling aiming at Polabians (which is a which is a disambiguation page!) and showing Lusitians who are only one of the three Polabian sub-groups is very hard to fathom.

Nasz, I asked you on your Talk page to do your own research before editing. Your answer was to blank twice my edits. I also asked you twice not to reply on my Talk page. You ignored my request. In fact you followed it but only by chance: you've put your answer on the Talk page of a dead account ;-) I found it only by checking your contribution list. Friendly Neighbour 13:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Confusing Sentence in Origins section

"Some believe the Vandals were first identified with Przeworsk culture in the 19th century"

This makes no sense. I suspect whoever wrote it was translating to english and the translation did not go over well. I would modify this but I have no idea what the true meaning of this sentence is. If anyone knows, please clean it up. Cshay 01:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted reference

The following reference has been commented out by User:Nasz: Roland Steinacher under Reiner Protsch"Studien zur vandalischen Geschichte. Die Gleichsetzung der Ethnonyme Wenden, Slawen und Vandalen vom Mittelalter bis ins 18. Jahrhundert", 2002. Noted by Wetman 08:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False reference

do i have to explain what it mean ? Nasz 02:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response

I do not like the joke added to the citation of my PhD thesis! The thesis was not supervised by Reiner Protsch, but by Herwig Wolfram and Walter Pohl at the University of Vienna. This can also be seen in the online version. Protsch was accused of manipulating his data. I published the main ideas as: Wenden, Slawen, Vandalen. Eine frühmittelalterliche pseudologische Gleichsetzung und ihre Nachwirkungen, in: ed. Walter Pohl, Die Suche nach den Ursprüngen. Von der Bedeutung des frühen Mittelalters (Forschungen zur Geschichte des Mittelalters 8, Wien 2004) 329-353. An english version is being prepared. Greetings from Austria Roland Steinacher

I also found the english abstract of my PhD thesis, maybe this can be used : )

"Studien zur vandalischen Geschichte. Die Gleichsetzung der Ethnonyme Wenden, Slawen und Vandalen vom Mittelalter bis ins 18. Jahrhundert"

ABSTRACT The german Wenden is known as a synonym for Slavs since the 6th century A.D. Medieval authors also used Wandali instead of Wenden/Slavs. There was no explanation for this identification in historical research yet. The first sources containing the equation are the glossary of Wessobrunn (9th cent.) and the so called glossary of Salomon. Several other sources up to the 15th century also were analyzed. The so called "Frankish Table of nations", a brief genealogy of peoples that, in essentials, proceeds from Tacitus threefold division of the Germans, was identified as the main source for the identification of Slavs/Wenden with the Vandals. Traces of this text could be isolated in sources dealing with the identification discussed; especially in the Chronicon Vedastinum and the 13th century Polish chronicle of Mierszwa. The first aim of the identification was the integration of the Slavs, the "newcomers and nomads" (Florin Curta, The Making of the Slavs. History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500–700 (Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought. Fourth Series, Cambridge 2001) 23) of early medieval Europe, in a western and frankish conception of history. Danzig, Lübeck, Wismar, Rostock, Stralsund, Königsberg, Riga and other cities of the Hanse were called wendische Städte/vandalicae urbes since the 14th century. The Swedish kings used the title Suecorum, Gothorum Vandalorumque rex since the 16th century. These terms are survivals of the early medieval identification Wenden=Vandals. So it is possible to explain the Swedish title. Several humanist scholars tried to justify the equation with specific perversions of history using the so called Pseudo-Berossos and Tacitus. The 16th century texts of Krantz, Cromer, Dubravius, Schurtzfleisch, Marschalk, Latomus, Simonius, Chytraeus and Leuthinger are analysed and explained in this historical context. The dissertation also contains a discussion of the mainly german 18th century research concerning the equation. The dissapearance of the identification could be shown to be a result of its 18th century classification as an error of medieval authors. --Rolandsteinacher 03:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

ANDALUSIA < VANDALUSIA: It is very probable that the name Andalusia is absolutely not connencted to our Vandals. Andalusia could have been derived from a gothic term for a tax paying district (landlos-gothica sors). This was suggested by: Heinz Halm, Al-Andalus und Gothica Sors, in: Der Islam 66 (1989) 252-263. --Rolandsteinacher 04:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no historical evidence whatsoever of the name Andalus ever having been used before the Islamic conquest and it is most likely of Arabic origin. Germanic etymologies are pure (and in my opinion far fetched)speculation.--Burgas00 00:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

What i find funny is the use of the word Vandalusía which seems to have been conjured out of no where by one Dutch academic. --Burgas00 00:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup section: Origins

The section in question contains lots of fringe theories, and therefore should be reformulated to signal the speculativeness of the section, and be carefully provided by citations that enables us to determine the degree of "fringeness" of each statement. On the other hand, I'm against removing any information, unless proven to be outright hoax. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 09:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decline

The Decline section is pathetic. I know people out there will respond and say "edit it yourself" but this soooo not a good article cos of the decline. There are more references to catholic persecution inthe few lines there then there are to reasons as to why Vandal power decreased. So what if they persecuted Catholics, did it lead to the Romans and other Christianized Germans attacking the Vandals? Why and how did they decline? None of these two key questions have been answered. I would be Bold and edit it but I have no verified history in this matter, my guesstimate is that the persecution of Catholics led to other Christians destroying them.Tourskin 01:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick version: the Byzantines invaded, defeated the Vandal armies, and proceded to persecute non-Catholic Christians. Jacob Haller 02:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so my guesstimate was right on. Tourskin 18:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sense of "East Germanic"

I have most often encountered references to the Vandals as East Germanic as a shorthand for "speaking an East Germanic language" if any definition is applied, not in the sense of "according to Tacitus' definition of Germanic" (and Tacitus doesn't define Germanic anyway, he uses geography). Jacob Haller 17:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it strikes me as not very encyclopedic. I just checked that this was added on April 16 by an anonymous user (with no edit explanation). Judging by his edit history, it was almost certainly the freshly banned Nasz while not logged. I will delete the words. -Friendly Neighbour 18:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I was right about the edit being made by Nasz. The IP number has been blocked last night with the following coment: "the static IP used by indef. blocked user:Nasz". -Friendly Neighbour 18:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What we mean by "Catholic church"

I checked months ago that using "Catholic" for the early church which divided later into the modern Catholic and Orthodox churches is correct (in the meaning of "universal"). However, I believe it is strongly misleading. Byzantium in this meaning was "Catholic" while it already had many traits of the later Orthodox church (for example Greek as the liturgy language). Therefore using "mainstream Christian" is much better in a popular encyclopedia as it does not create the misleading notion that by "Catholic" we mean the modern Roman Catholic church. -Friendly Neighbour 19:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Which implies that Arians and Donatists were not mainstream (there were probably more Donatists than Catholics in the area). Which is biased. The current text states that:

Differences between the Arian faith adhered to by the Vandals and Christian Church or Donatists was a constant source of tension in their African state. Most Vandal kings, except Hilderic, persecuted Catholics to a greater or lesser extent. Members of the clergy were exiled, monasteries were dissolved, and general pressure was used on non-conforming Christians. Although mainstream Christianity was rarely officially forbidden (the last months of Huneric's reign being an exception), they were forbidden from making converts among the Vandals, and life was generally difficult for the Christian clergy, who were denied bishoprics.

This text confuses the Catholics and Donatists and implies that the Arians were not Christian. Therefore it is both misleading and biased. The text describes Catholicism as "mainstream Christianity" which is also biased. It states that "the Christian clergy" "were denied bishoprics" which is true of the Catholic Clergy and may be true of the Donatist clergy, but wasn't true of the Arian clergy. Jacob Haller 19:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion we should find a phrasing which avoids the question whether Arians were Christian or not. This is a loaded question as many modern Christian churches define Christianity in a way which excludes the Arians (historically I believe it was done on purpose). This is an article on Vandals, not on the Christianity so we should avoid a war on the definition of the latter term. Therefore let's propose a name for non-Arian Christianity other than "Catholic" which (as I write above) is massively misleading in the context. -Friendly Neighbour 20:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
If we want to discuss both the Donatists and the X in one statement, but not the Arians, we can say Trinitarian Christians, in contrast with Arian Christians (recognizing that describing these as Arian is also problematic). I'm not sure how to describe the X but not the Donatists except by calling the X Catholics (recognizing that these could be considered part of the Eastern ones as well). Jacob Haller 21:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a good name as long as we define it - we cannot expect a non-expert reader to understand it. When we mention Roman Empire or later Byzantium, we can add that we mean the official denomination of both. -Friendly Neighbour 21:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Jacob, I hope that the version we have now, after your correction of my version, is the consensus one which can survive for some time. It is slightly on the side of counting Arians as Christians (other Christians of then era would probably not agree) but that is probably the right thing to do looking at the conflict in hindsight. In fact I believe this is the question of Christianity definition and definitions are not something worth arguing. -Friendly Neighbour 21:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

How is vandalism in this article to be dealt with?68.4.59.33 18:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)John D.

Do you mean the article is presently vandalized? Or do you want us to cover the subject of vandalism in the article? --Friendly Neighbour 18:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unanswered Questions

From where the Vandals came and to where they dissapeared? All participating to create good article of Valdals have omitted one possible link to so called Butonis (Budin Votjakis) and two other Finno Ugrian tribes which entered from Valgia Kama c. 50 BC to 100 AD to Bohemia and Vistula areas. Butonis belonged to Markomanni Reich in Bohemia and Silesia together with Zumis. There was also Uitonis (Jotunis) around Elbing River.This according to Strabo. Tacitus puts even better by adding Finnois and Ptolemaios describes Phennois. All took part to Markomanni war trek against the Romans in Pannonia.The Roman sources mentions also Limigantes who built wooden heated houses along the Theiss River in Pannonia. Their war cry was Marha,marha when they were attacking against Roman Legions. Limigantes were allied to Sarmanthians and most probably also Ud-murt tribe. Why all this is missing from the text? The Germanized names for Vandal "kuninkaat" (Kings) is nothing new. As long as someone can prove which language the Vandals used, their origin remains unknown. Limigantes seems to have returned back to Oka upper source to form origins to Vjatitsis as recorded by P.J. Jakobi in his research in 1904 - 1906 and recorded in Venäjän Maantieteellisen Seuran Julkaisuja (Russian Geographical Societys Publications) XXXII 1907 St. Petersburg.

What happened after 534 when King and 2.000 best warriors were taken to Constantinople to the remaining Vandals in North Africa? According to one Arab historian they started a new trek by packing their belongings to camels, donkeys and horses and started wandering toward south along "The Great Caravane Route" across Sahara to Niger River. From old German map dating by 1914 and published in Leipzig, the names presented sounds familiar to Finno Ugrians. One tribe settled around Tsade (Sade = Rain) Lake to Kanuri district (Kuka, Marte). Some settled to Keppi and Rima Rivers (Ilo, Raha, Tilli, Konni, Sirmi). But the main stream settled to River Niger bend area. (Karinaama, Kompa, Kupela, Ponsa, Terä, Kurki, Jatakala, Karu, Sallakoira, Sumpi, Pore, Kiri, Luta, Jako, Kutiala, Kuoro). Over the years they seems to have been assimilated with local inhabitants, both Arabs and Negros. If I now remember correctly one tribe even about 50 years ago told that their ancestors were white men and woman of Asian origin. (Sarmathians or Alains?).

JN

Ingenious ideas. But personally I think that Vandals were more related to Eskimos and Bushmen. 82.100.61.114 20:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession

This makes no sense: "According to the law of succession which he had promulgated, his successor was not the eldest son but the oldest male member of the royal house (law of seniority). Thus he was succeeded by his son Huneric (Hunerich, 477–484), who at first protected the Catholics, owing to his fear of Constantinople." It says not his son, but then his son. Was his son also the oldest male member of the royal house? -Reagle 21:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Silingi/Hasdingi/Lacringi

There was a speculation - I don't know where I read it - that the ending -fal (-val) was a sign of Vandalic (sub)tribes or clans, respectively. As you know, a group called NAHANARVALI is listed among old Lugians by Tacitus. Then we know Victufali, who curiously lived in the same area like Vandals-Hasdingi. And we also know the Lacringi, who were close allies of the Hasdingi and later disappear from historical sources in Dacia. Curiously, they disappear in the same area, where shortly after a tribe called the Taifali gets into historical sources. Currently I don't have enough time to deal with it, but if you had any info concerning this, it would be very useful. 82.100.61.114 20:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section enhancements?

In the Decline section, can we add that Sicily was lost to Odoacer's Kingdom in 477 AD? That's mentioned in the article about Odoacer. If true, then it would help spruce it up a little bit.

Also, the Euratlas map of Europe in 500 AD shows a "Roman-Moor Kingdom", which I haven't seen anywhere else, but also in Bruce Gordon's Regnal Chronologies entry for the City of Constantine, he mentions that the city never fell to the Vandals, but instead remained in Roman hands throughout the Vandal period. If correct, it might help improve the article to show that the Vandals didn't conquer ALL of Roman North Africa. Thomas Lessman (talk) 03:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should this page be protected?

I've noticed that this page is a frequent target of vandalism. Would it be reasonable to protect it in order to stop the edit war? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.207.60 (talk) 16:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)