Talk:Value theory
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[edit] Unstructured
This is a good wide-ranging discussion, and a useful accompaniment to the article on "Goodness". I enjoyed reading it.
No, I think that needs to be seriously reconsidered (vid. infra.) --djenner 19:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
At times in the article I thought there should be a recognition that "good" can be used in two senses: either as commendatory, an evaluative act by the speaker, on the one hand, or as a descriptive term about what people empirically value on the other hand.
For example, the dreadful activities of the SS officer are rightly condemned as not good by the writer, but in the first sense of the word "good". This leaves us with a problem of how (which most right minded people wish to do) to deny its goodness in the second sense. So "good" can't be explained either by what people empirically desire for its own sake, or by what we, as judgers, morally evaluate(except at riskof circularity).
The point of all this is that the writer has avoided that impasse by (rightly) condemning the SS person morally,and then moving on. Perhaps the enduring lesson is that there are no things which are good intrinsically: the good, eudamonistic life may turn to sadness at any stage; understanding can produce nuclear weapons, a person can fiddle while his city burns. So happiness, understanding and music can all be either good or bad depending on their context and what they contribute to. Nuclear processes can be useful: a slum city may need to burn (after evacuation!) and sadness is sometimes a proper process. Tony
This article as stands is completely unacceptable by wikipedia standards. Not only is it not an accurate representation of some of the ideas discussed, but it completely abandons the NPOV ideal at almost every turn. Deleting much of the existing article. JFQ
I think that "good" and "bad" are entirely artificial creations. It is useful to create the concepts and discuss them in order for human minds to understand how to mutually minimize pain and maximize happiness. But pain, happiness and humans can be reduced to biological properties that evolved in a terrific algorithm. In this algorithm, good and bad are meaningless.
I thought the refining of hedonism was very enlightening, but I wonder about refining the definition of good to:
Something is intrinsically good iff it is a type of pleasure that does not lead to pain without consent.
This would avoid the problem with the runner, as he consents to the physical pain he inflicts upon himself for the greater mental pleasure of achievement.
This would avoid the problem of Bill's life in that he causes much pain to his family, which they do not agree to regardless of whether or not they say so outloud.
This would avoid the problem of radical environmentalism, weighing the pain your consumption causes upon our descendants, or even other lifeforms.
Of course, other problems involving the good of pathological persons, mentally handicapped persons, and other cases of impaired perception exist.
And, of course, rating something as good is a matter of degree; I found the black-and-white reasoning of the subject simplistic. But then, what do I know? - Ron Newcomb
This article is infantile and inappropriately chatty. By far the worst, and most unacceptable, example of this is the line about "old Adolph who takes great pleasure in torturing Jews". This is how one can explain the holocaust to 5 year olds, but it will not do here. The reason monstrous crimes were committed under the Nazis was not individuals' quest for pleasure. They were motivated by a sense of moral duty, of discipline, of carrying out what their country wanted them to do, under the influence of nihilistic ideology. Please remove this example, it is very inappropriate. pir
I found this article rather superficial. I think it could have been summarized in a much shorter space without much (if any) loss of breadth, but with a great increase in clarity. This would have left room for even wider scope, including the questioning of the intrinsic value of the idea of "goodness" or "value" in itself. It definitely needs the addition of a much more detailed discussion of the circularity problem which occurs in attempting to pinpoint an absolute valuation of some thing or experience. In fact, it needs to elaborate on the difficulties of identifying and naming experiences, and how it is possible to communicate them in such a way as to compare them sufficiently well to arrive at any kind of consensus of value or even a consensus of a means of evaluation.
For example, why are feelings considered valuable over and above things or objects? Does the realness or concreteness of a thing (or its lack) affect its value or valuation method? What if a stone is more valuable than all the feelings of pleasure, happiness, rightness, joy or bliss that have ever been experienced? Some further discussion should make explicit the limits of pursuing valuation, including the limits of human understanding and communicating such ideas in language.
Finally, what if the whole pursuit of valuation is folly? Perhaps no thing is better than any other thing, real, abstract, or imagined? Well, is valuation theory a means to an end? Is it, then, intrinsically or instrumentally valued in and of itself? What does it mean to put onesself up as judge of what is good or bad, desirable or undesirable? How should an individual go about determining his or her own values? Our actions have implicit values -- are these the only true values? What about contradictory values? A child is tired but also hungry -- which is more valuable: sleep or food? Is this something that can be determined objectively, or do we determine it only incidentally, based on whether the child falls asleep or eats first?
There is no mention of Maslov's hierarchy of values -- an outrageous oversight. Brent Gulanowski 16:22, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Thank you Brent.The limits of human understanding, the valuation of value theory. Hmm, could take awhile. Your ultimate sentence, did you mean Maslow's hierarchy of needs? If so I'll gladly look at that. The other comments could take a while to include... I agree with the direction of your comments, it is a potentially vast subject. This is a rewrite and merge of two articles, perhaps I haven't been surgical enough. TonyClarke 16:54, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
My pleasure. Fortunately as this is a Wiki, one is free to specify direction in an article, with topic headings and sub-headings, and leave others to fill them in, either in-page or on subsidiary pages. Yes, I did mean Maslow's hierarchy of needs (perhaps more a "surprising" oversight than an "outrageous" one, ;-) ).
I think a way to get a handle on the dangerous potential of the subject to absorb other subjects is to start off by admitting the difficulty right away. I think philosophy is much more successful when its motivations are examined, or at the least stated honestly, as much as possible, at the outset. In this case, with a neutral POV article, possible motivations, or those of the originator of the topic (stated or interpreted), would be suitable.
Value Theory, if I am correct, seems to be asking, "What is important, and how do we find confidence in making the decision?" In that way, it is a rephrasing of another question: "How ought we to live?", if you believe that the reason to consider value issues is to help make better decisions about what actions to take. (That is a monstrous problem. Is it the original motivation to philosophy?) Does value theory incorporate implicit belief in free will? Is it prescriptive or descriptive?
Finally, anywhere that this topic seems to want to ingest other topics is the point at which it might be best to simply provide a link and allow the reader to draw inferences of their own. Brent Gulanowski 17:16, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I value your comments: perhaps it helps if I say that I think value theory is an attempt to __understand___ what is going on when people value, decide how to live, etc.. It is not an attempt to decide these matters at first hand, and to present the world with the solution to all its problems. As if!
Instead, I see it as an academic pursuit: psychology doesn't tell us what to think, botany doesn't tell us what to grow (although it can help us with specific horticultural difficulties). Similarly, philosophy, and value theory would be outrageous in my view, and I gather in yours, if it were to presume to try to decide how people should live.
I regret if my draft gave the wrong impression on this, and I will bear this in mind when looking at it again, when I next get some time :)) Does anybody else have any other views on this article? TonyClarke 22:44, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Sorry my comments above relate to my redraft of this page, and its merge with goodness, see Goodness and value theory. That might have been clear: if not, apologies.
- Actually, I had not realized it, myself. Thanks for the clarification. I was commenting on the original value theory article (specifically the one to which this talk page relates). Should not the original pages be removed then? Brent Gulanowski 19:29, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Since I expanded the article, the person removing the additions ought to explain why he considers the article insufficient or biased. The view I offered suggests that value theory is a component of numerous sciences and disciplines. If that is wrong, I'd like to have some good arguments for that view. User:Jurriaan
[edit] This article is simply mistaken: Max Scheler missing
It errs in missing the entire, extremely involved discussion of values and value-hierarchies of the first quarter of the 20th century, especially associated with Max Scheler (the article on whom is equally defective).
Scheler articulates a very involved concept of values arising in feelings of preference, which are then organized in hierarchies, in turn constituting totalities. Interesting as this perhaps was within the context of phenomenological psychology, its extension into politics was just a disaster.
This article needs major revisions, therefore. It needs (1) to get into a discussion of the history of value theory, (2) the connection between values, value-hierarchies and value-totalities with evaluative consciousness and (3) a discussion of the problems this can present when extended in less than careful, extramural ways.
Absent the revisions (which requires both more time and greater scholarship than I possess), I think it might be appropriate to withdraw the article or flag it as inadequate. --djenner 19:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Absence of philosophy
This article needs much more philosophy in it. Important contributors to the philosophical discussion of value are Nicolai Hartmann, C. I. Lewis, Max Scheler, Ralph Barton Perry, G. E. Moore, Franz Brentano, H. P. Grice, J. L. Mackie, David Wiggins, W. D. Ross and so on. KSchutte 18:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This article seems to ignore the entire contribution of analytical philosophy to the Theory of Value.
This article seems to ignore the entire contribution of analytical philosophy to the Theory of Value. For instance: The fundamental theorem of the Theory of Value states that every value system must start with at least one arbitrary value assignment.
I support this statement 87.78.204.129 21:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Axiology
To add to the criticism, and not do anything about it, there is a section titled "axiology" but no mention of the term in the discussion. Sholto Maud 21:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
