Talk:Valtiel
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[edit] Orginal Research?
This entire section which was off topic posted in the sec about the description of the Valtiel's appearence:
"Another opinion shared by a handful of fans is that Valtiel is in fact Pyramid Head. Whenever Heather sees Valtiel there is usually something or someone being hurt or killed: in the elevator at the mall he is seen killing a monster, at the hospital seen turning a valve with a dead nurse strung up nearby, at the Chapel he is turning another valve with two people writhing underneath a large curtain and again seen hanging another nurse. Pyramid Head pursues the sinner James in Silent HIll 2 in its attempt to end his sin, Valtiel could be doing the same thing. Because Heather has never killed a 'real' person Valtiel pays no attention to her and focuses on the pain of others, the 'sinners'. At the end of the game Claudia is found dead at the foot of God with Valtiel nearby. Claudia has just murdered Vincent so is now a sinner, perhaps she didn't die giving birth to god but was killed by Valtiel."
It's filled with half truths and sepculation and does not belong on Wikipedia. Not to mention the grammer. If future occurences continue I will promptly delete them. It's about as equal as saying that fan theory abut Samael is the cult's god, which is funny considering the fact that Samael is male and The Order's belief in deity is female, and is not a demon nor is the devil. Xuchilbara 03:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if it is in fact worth mentioning then that the Seal of Metatron which Valtiel sports as tattoos (apparently), is the same design described as the mark of Samael from SH1. As far as you can put stock in the translated lost memories, it makes mention of an association between Metatron and Samael in Jewish Kabbalah here. Regardless of the non-fictional relationship between the entities, if the translation is accurate then perhaps a note mentioning that the sigil that Valtiel bears is representative of both within the universe would not go amiss? Speculation on what role Metatron/Samael plays, why Alessa would spread the seal and what Valtiel bearing the seal represents can than occur anon. Legather (talk) 02:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Hmm
Wow... this article is... stilted. Someone who knows about this 'Valtiel' character should probably clean it up. --Thaddius 02:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah that's true, i put alot of new info on it, I hope it sounds better, whoever did it before, kept mention the yellow god might be the valtiel which has no basis in fact, and the bottom sentences about valtiel's appearence was terrible, it was like a 5th grader wrote it, they kept using Valtiel's name to start every new sentence. :-/[like Valtiel doesn speak. Valtiel doesn't have weapons] Anyway when I think of more to add I shall. 17:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removing a sentence
Though it should be noted that Valtiel appears to try to "help" Heather in fighting the twisted incarnation of "God" even after Heather had expelled it.
I'm taking this sentence out. I don't recall Valtiel helping Heather at all in that fight. As soon as the expelled fetus is swallowed, he does rise from the floor, taking Claudia with him. This is likely to protect her FROM Heather, not to protect Heather from her. The only other time he even shows up in the final battle is to drape something over the face of God, if I recall correctly. I don't see how any of that actually helps Heather. Levid37 03:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The veil the valtiel drapes over God in the final battle is said to symbolize a death veil, it occurs in many cultures. It doesn't mean anything signafigant after that.
Xuchilbara 13:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Something fishy
In the 'physical appearance' section there are two links to magazine scans of unknown origin. Unless there are actual links to real webpages these might have to be removed, along with the speculation involved. I don't really know how someone can claim that Pyramid Head is based on Valtiel when one considers that PH appears in a game released previous to the one where Valtiel appears. --Thaddius 15:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I can see that you are not aware of the book of Lost Memories, in which the two mag scans are from. It's a book released for the SH series by the creators, commenting on the making of and the storyline of Sh 1 - 3 Here is an entire text translation of the book if you would rather that be the citation, than fine, there really is not much of a diffrence. On the other related SH pages this work is a cited source.
BTW the Ph being based on the valtiel is a fact known by fans. There is released artwork that documents the similarities between the two.
The valtiel is considered older than the Ph as the Valtiel belongs to the Order's beliefs, previous to PH. The ceremonial robes that the PH wears was said by the creators to be in homage to the robes worn by the Valtiel, which are religious robes. keep in mind that it takes years to make video games,(i.e 3 years to make Kingdom Hearts.) and storylines are often written way ahead of time.
Xuchilbara 03:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm aware of the Lost memories book BUT, I wasn't aware that wikipedia considered fan translations as cited sourced. You may think that because you put the link up on other pages that it's a cited source, but you are mistaken. As for PH and Valtiel, since there are NO VERIFIABLE SOURCES on the matter your extrapolations are easily refutable. For more information I suggest you look up verifiability before you flood wiki with unverifiable info. --Thaddius 15:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Then LM should not be referenced at the bottom of the screen. And since we're on the subject pf verfiability, the begining part of the page, since it is also derived from LM should be taken apart now shouldn't it?
>Thus he is "Valet of God", but the Valtiel has also been described as an "Agent of God" by Hiroyuki Owaku, the same description given to the angel Metatron in the game.
This is also from LM. (I did not write that part or some of the other parts in this article from LM.) Xuchilbara 18:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- The etymology of the name is solid (French word valet and el as angel) so that can stay (especially since it's not actively using LM as a source, etymology is pretty verifiable without fan translations) while everything else should either be altered or go. On that note there are a bunch of other sites referencing the same scans. We'll take care of those later. --Thaddius 15:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Well it'll be hard to erase all LM and other related fan translated books from the SH pages. And you might get contenders. i don't think i'd have a problem if the person referencing it could read Japanese as much, but I doubt any wikipedia editers of Sh can read o speak Japanese. Xuchilbara 03:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Valtiel's design was made after PH's... how is PH based off of Valtiel? Also, as for the years to make a video game/story remark, many games don't take 3 years to make, usually 2 or less and with that Silent Hill 3 wasn't even going to continue the story of Silent Hill 1 until they listened to the fans calling for it so they didn't have the entire story planned out since Silent Hill 1.
