Talk:Valentine's Day/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2 →

Contents 1 Protected? 2 valentines day 3 Shocker? 4 St. Valentine in Croatia 5 France 6 "Medieval era" section 6.1 Jewish massacre 6.1.1 Update on Massacre 7 Malysia 8 INDIA 9 Valentinius 10 Requested move 11 Are there any tv documentarys on "Valentine's Day" 12 Gnosticism 13 Saint Valentine? 14 Err... Jack Valentine? 15 Feb 14 coming.. 16 Spam 17 Removing static 18 Valentinsdag 19 Duplication 20 Pseudohistory 21 Valentine's Day and its equivalents in other cultures 22 MISC Edits 22.1 Marketing section of Article 22.2 Japan women are not impressed 23 Sentimental embroideries

Protected?

Is it protected just because the day is soon, and lots of people don't like the day? I was only going to make the minor edit of linking the word singles to Single (relationship).Schizombie 06:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

If you were reverting anonymous vandals yourself during the lead-up to Valentine's Day, you'd breathe a sigh of relief to have a little respite. --Wetman 11:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm assuming some vandal wrote in the origins of Valentine's Day replacing the word " martyrdom" with "bitches"....? Apparently when it was protected not all of the problems were taken out. Just do a search for the word to find the problem I am talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.149.216 (talk • contribs)

Amen to that Wetman. Schizombie, I added what you wanted, No harm no foul eh? Dragoonmac - If there was a problem yo I'll solve it 22:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

valentines day

Have you ever wondered where the origin of Valentines day came from? A catholic saint? I was surprised to learn that a holiday such

In medieval times, every day was named after a saint and was commonly called by that name. St. Valentine was arbitrarily assigned to February 14. Almost nothing is known about Valentine and certainly nothing that would connect him to lovers. Kauffner 18:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Shocker?

The caption says Valentine is gesturing the Shocker. It DOES appear to be the Shocker but it's unlikely that's what the artist intended. Sharksfin 06:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

the vandals have no better job....they prevent genuine users from changing any mistakes that might have occured

St. Valentine in Croatia

roses are roses not days

France

French for Valentine's Day is Saint Valentin, not sainte valentine ;-) Yes, I know we French are annoying with our spelling xD

"Medieval era" section

Some contemporary scholars believe Chaucer created the ascociation between valentines day and love - and furthermore, he was talking about St. Valentine of Genoa, which would make sense because the spring imagery in the poem doesn't make much sense for england in mid-feburary. (Cite). Would changing that section meet with any objections? Mike1024 (t/c) 09:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Jewish massacre

I looked at some scholarship regarding this tragic event. I'll paste it below and give the URL of one authoritative website (an .edu). After extensive research though, my observation is that this tragic event, although very real, had nothing to do with Valentine's day per se and as such does not belong in this article on Valentine's Day. It deserves the light of day and belongs perhaps in the 1342 events page, but the massacre had nothing to do with the celebration of Valentine's Day and I think it should be moved from an article that is supposed to be about Valentine's Day.

Secondly, the paragraph needs some accuracy. The full story is that "the authorities [of Stroudsbourg], who attempted to save the Jews, were overthrown by a fear-stricken mob led by the butchers' and tanners' guilds and by the nobles who were determined to do away with the Jews who were their economic competitors and to whom they were indebted for loans. Thus in this city, at least, it was not merely religious bigotry and fear of the plague, but economic resentment that fired the craftsmen and the nobles to their work of extermination." The current wiki paragraph just makes a blanket accusation against "Christians" and in light of the amplified details found at the website below, I sincerely believe the current paragraph should be moved and redacted once it winds up in the 1342 article which is where I would like to put it. Please fell free to comment if you believe otherwise. Thanks!

Here's the scholarship from URL: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1348-jewsblackdeath.html "The second account describes the Black Death in general and treats specifically of the destruction of the Jewish community in Strasbourg. In this city the authorities, who attempted to save the Jews, were overthrown by a fear-stricken mob led by the butchers' and tanners' guilds and by the nobles who were determined to do away with the Jews who were their economic competitors and to whom they were indebted for loans. Thus in this city, at least, it was not merely religious bigotry and fear of the plague, but economic resentment that fired the craftsmen and the nobles to their work of extermination. Those people of Strasbourg, who had thus far escaped the plague and who thought that by killing off the Jews they would insure themselves against it in the future, were doomed to disappointment, for the pest soon struck the city and, it is said, took a toll of sixteen thousand lives." Bundas 17:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Update on Massacre

I sincerely doubt the person who took exception to my edit and reverted read this post on the talk page. The issue is not whether the massacre is true or not - it is true and it happened. The issue is whether it belongs on a page about this particular holiday. The massacre as awful as it was, had NOTHING to do with Valentine's Day. Does everything that happened on February 14th belong on the Valentine's Day page? Why not as long as it's true? Of course everything that ever happened on February 14th does not belong here. It belongs on the Feb. 14th page and this particular event also belongs on the 1349 page as well (as it was there already - great, no problem with that). Furthermore, the revert does not address the issue of the blanket accusation against "Christians" discussed supra. Massacre was a wee bit more complicated than Jewish versus Christian. Kindly read the URL posted above. Bundas 18:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Malysia

"Malysia, KUALA TERENGGANU, Feb (Bernama)

Muslims in the country, especially lovers, have been advised not to celebrate Valentine's Day tomorrow.

State Islam Hadhari Development Committee Deputy Chairman, Muhammad Ramli Nuh said celebrating the Day could be regarded as recognising the enemies of Islam because Valentine or Valentinus took part in planning and attacking Cordoba, once a well-known centre of Islam in Spain, causing its downfall....

Muhammad Ramli said although not many couples celebrate Valentine's Day in the state, the state government wished to remind that the celebration should not be held including in hotels."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010215

INDIA

There is a similar day in India. It is called "Padva". It is one of the days of the Diwali festival . It falls during the month of Oct-Nov. It is the day on which the husband gifts his wife. Traditionally ,the gift, was a Saree or piece of jewelry. It is the expression of love by the husband towards his wife.

Valentinius

User:Kauffner in a "rewrite of the history", suppressed the brief mention of Valentinius, the only historical Valentine with the least connection to erotic love. I have returned it to the article. It makes no claims, merely mentions the existence of a much more famous Valentinius. The edit history of this User] speaks for itself. Wikipedia is not an organ of the Roman or any other Church. --Wetman 08:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

This strikes me as an inappropriately personal response. I write some stuff about Christmas some stuff about Valentine's Day...and so what? That makes me a Vatican's spokeman? I am not even Catholic.

As far as Valentinius goes, IMO the way the subsection was originally written it sounded like some cranky Da Vinci Code style conspiracy theory. (The real Valentine -- a Gnostic love machine surpressed by a centuries long Opus Dei conspiracy.) Valentine was a really common name at that time -- it's not reasonable to connect everyone with that name to Valentine's Day. In any case, I rewrote the subsection in question to give it a "just the facts" tone. I hope this solution is satisfactory to you.

Earlier, I replaced the reference to the printed version of the Catholic Encyclopedia with a link to the appropriate page on the New Advent web site. I don't understand why you would put the old reference back in. The Web page is an electronic version of the same reference and thus strikes me as superior. I doubt very many Wikipedia readers would actually go to the trouble of looking up a printed reference from 1908.

There is no Wikipedia about the Luperci, so took out the brackets. I thought it looked ugly to have a single red word in in the middle of the article.Kauffner 16:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The whole point of red links is to get people to create missing articles. Please re-add the link. Clinkophonist 20:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

link documenting the decision by the Church to get rid of this feast day?unsigned comment was added by 74.98.236.249 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-03T00:48:11 (UTC)

Are there any tv documentarys on "Valentine's Day"

There have been tv documentarys on just about each and every subject a person can think of, including a PBS 25 minute documentary on Labor Day. Does anyone know about a tv documentary about Valentine's Day, or is there just a "Peanuts" cartoon and not much else?24.195.242.116 00:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Gnosticism

I am not sure why there is a section on the famous gnostic of this name? Is there some connection with the holiday? LawrenceTrevallion 15:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The only connection seems to be the name, which was a very common one at that time. But I have tried to delete it without success before. See the discussion above under section heading "Valentinius."Kauffner 04:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a real factual problem with this section in its assertion that the "bridal chamber" counter's mainstream Christianity's asceticism. I'm not familiar with the Valentinus of the argument off hand, but I know that this simply does not ring true with most early Gnostic writings. Specifically the treatment of the bridal chamber in the Nag Hammadi scriptures does not actually refer to copulation. The rationale is this: copulation multiplies the number of people on the planet, and more people means a multiplication of the evil illusion of separation. Thus copulation and reproduction belong to debased love, whereeas the bridal chamber actually comes in is as a representation of two becoming one; in other words the bridal chamber is a mystical union and not a division as comes from sexual reproduction. For Gnosticism the bridal chamber is entirely symbolic. The Gnostic ethos tended to forbid all sexuality categorically, an extension of its grotesque misogyny. Greendemiurge 14:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed -- the theological claims are erroneous. Furthermore, the Rome (Pope) are ridiculous, since his Gnosticism would make him a serious heretic. Further, many scholars debate whether or not Gnosticism can even be properly called Christianity. Regardless of all that, this Valentinus is NOT the St. Valentine for whom the day is named, and has no place in this article, which is about a completely unrelated person. Deleted.

Saint Valentine?

The caption under the image in the top right hand corner says 'Saint Velentine', I didn't realise Saint Valentine looked so much like a box of Chocolates.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.167.195.199 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Err... Jack Valentine?

I think the section at the very end of this page regarding regional traditions in the UK is incorrect - I've lived in Norfolk most of my life and no-one I know has ever mentioned Jack Valentine or the practise of leaving sweets at people's back doors. I think this might have been taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/content/articles/2005/02/01/valentines_2005_norfolk_traditions_feature.shtml. If that's the case, I don't think that one prank and the unsubstantiated recollections of someone who hasn't lived in the country for over 30 years should really count as proof that this still happens today. Seekay 17:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Feb 14 coming..

I seriously think we should have this page closed to public edits during most of February cause everyone will be putting their loved ones names all over the article etc. Wikiphreak 22:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.

Spam

Removed spam from top of article...twice in one morning. CsBerry 15:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Removing static

• "The association of the middle of February with love and fertility dates to ancient times." No. There's no Greek "February" and Latin februa are objects concerned with purification. See revised article Juno Februata.Wetman 22:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• "[[Image:Hera2.JPG|thumb|left|100px|The Roman goddess Juno is often depicted as a severe beauty. The festival of Juno Februa was celebrated on February 13-14.]]" The line drawing does not illustrate a Juno Februata. No connectiobn with Valentine's Day, the subject of this article. Wetman 22:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• "In Guerber's passage on the worship of Vali: "Vali is god of eternal light, as Vidar is of imperishable matter; and as beams of light were often called arrows, he is always represented and worshipped as an archer. For that reason his month in Norwegian calendars is designated by the sign of the bow, and is called Lios-beri, the light-bringing. As it falls between the middle of January and of February, the early Christians in efforts to stop the Germanic tribes from celebrating their rituals, dedicated this month to St. Valentine, who was also a skillful archer, and was said, like Vali, to be the harbinger of brighter days, the awakener of tender sentiments, and the patron of all lovers." This quote is untraceable on the Internet. Any connection to Valentine's Day, the subject of this article? 22:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Nothing is untraceable on the internet...  :-) This quote is from folklore collected by Guerber in The Norsemen. See the following website: http://www.haxton.org/Vali.htm for more info.. Have a great day! 63.3.15.129 16:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"...awakener of tender sentiments, and the patron of all lovers." Is that really the entire substance of a purported connection with Valentine's Day? A bit slender, for an encyclopedia, don't you know. --Wetman 13:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Valentinsdag

"In Denmark, Norway & Sweden Valentines Day is known as Valentinsdag."

I can't speak for the other countries but here in Sweden it is definitely not called Valentinsdag - it is called Alla Hjärtans Dag. Just thought that I should point that out.

Eloriel 11:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

If you have a source for that, make the change! (If you can't edit the article due to the semi-protection, please point me to the source here and I'll make the edit.) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 21:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I can verify that. Living in Sweden I can guarantee that no one ever says Valentinsdag. I also looked it up in my encyclopedia of Swedish culture, the dictionary and Swedish wikipedia. Source for info on sales about Mother 's day vs. Valentine's Day in Sweden: http://www.it-wire.nu/show.jsp?pressId=646&distributionId=650 The entry has been edited accordingly. Vidyadhara 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

source e.g.: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_hj%C3%A4rtans_dag JOHANNESBURG, South Africa - Zimbabwe's national security minister has told the country's last remaining white farmers that they will be jailed if they refuse to abide by a deadline that passed over the weekend for them to leave their farms, according to a newspaper report on Monday.

Wiki, I love you <3

If you know where the proper place for telling your love to wikipedia is, please inform ;-) Thanks. &>-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.21.98.115 (talk) 17:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Duplication

We have sections on "Sepandarmazgan" and "espandarmazegan", which seem to be the same thing... AnonMoos 19:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Pseudohistory

The impossibly naive section of "history" repeated, in part word-for-word, the press release providedby the US Greeting Card industry to History Channel, that respected storehouse of reliable historical information: Click here! Copyright issues aside, I have corrected the text to bring it into line with reality. I expect there will be squeaks of dismay from folks who refuse to read the Saint Valentine bit in The Golden Legend: For the Golden Legend St. Valentine click here. Catholic Encyclopedia: the actual article on the various Valentines is linked at Saint Valentine. --Wetman 22:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it wasn't word-for-word, but it was indeed an attempt to milden the myth-debunking content of this article and to shift the balance away from facts and towards sugary nonsense, so it had to be changed. I do believe that my edits, albeit avoiding sharp polemical formulations, didn't restore the pro-Valentine tendency. --91.148.159.4 00:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have restored suppressed information, corrected the "history" and quoted Charles d'Orleans "Valentine" rondeau. --Wetman 11:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Valentine's Day and its equivalents in other cultures

This section is about a third of the article and a lot of it just, this country celebrates on that day and that country celebrates on some other day, and so what? Also, there is no distinction made between traditional holidays and something like "Black Day," which is a passing pop culture fad based on some depressing movie. These holidays are not Valentine's Day and shouldn't be getting so much prominence in this article. Kauffner 04:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed about Black Day - maybe it deserves a mention because it's a direct off-shoot of Valentine's day, but no more than a link to it's article. This article is about Valentine's Day so details should be left to the linked article. --ShizuokaSensei 07:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

MISC Edits

"they give chocolates to all their male co-workers, sometimes at significant personal expense. " Significantly expensive, like Halloween candies? --69.212.110.189 23:27, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Marketing section of Article

Why exactly is there no section beyond the link to the Hallmark holiday discussing how heavily marketed Valentine's day is? &>-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.236.249 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-03T00:48:11 (UTC)

Japan women are not impressed

They see it as it should be seen rationally, a corporate rip off. I am surprised the wikipedia article don't link valentine with any industry. The evolution of the event and related commercialization is worth a mention in the article. In fact, those facts are what put wikipedia at strategic advantage over corporate media, as the later will never venture there. Avoiding them mean we are just another media, echoing the same tied dogma that we are used to hear from TV and news paper (Written by wealthy white men)

The tradition is relatively new. It was started 40 years ago by Japan's leading chocolate manufacturer.

But in a culture where gifts are often used to cement good social relations, it has become entrenched in corporate life.

However, a recent survey found that 70% percent of female company workers would like the custom to end. BBC [1]

I don't understand why this article doesn't discuss the mass commercialization of Valentine's day. At least Japan understands what's really behind it all.

Sentimental embroideries

The sentimental "touches" to the Valentine tale are modern, unless they can be sourced. Not the other way round, needless to say. The "note" detail is invented to provide a respectable "source" for the greeting card industry: it is unlikely to predate World War I. Any earlier account with these features should be edited in, naturally. --Wetman 21:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)