Talk:Vajrayana

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[edit] Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana

The same argument holds that all Buddhism is primarily a form of Hinayana since Hinyana suttas, and vinaya continue to have importance, and many later teachings have their origins in Hinayana thought. Indeed even Vajrayana practices contain an element of Hinyana in the form of renunciation which the Vajrayana came to see as the quintessential Hinayana practice."

This was removed because it is based upon the premise that Hinayana and Mahayana are what they are according to what scriptures they accept. However, this is not the case: Hinayana has as it's goal the Nirvana of an Arhat. Mahayana and Vajrayana have as their goal the Nirvana of a Buddha. This is why it is 'okay' to say that the Vajrayana is a specialised form of Mahayana. (20040302 16:06, 5 May 2004 (UTC))
I'm curious, do you know if the Theravada school accepts this distinction? - Nat Krause 10:28, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
The specific distinction (I guess) you are refering to is that between a Bodhisattva and Sravaka? (Mahayana refers to the path of Bodhisattvas, and here Hinayana I took to refer to Sravakayana - or the path of Arhats)? Yes, there is no problem with that. The Pali canon and Jataka tales assert that there is a distinction between the Bodhisattva and the Sravaka. Remember, the Pali canon does agree that Sakyamuni was a Bodhisattva before he achieved enlightenment. Buddha himself said it was not necessary to follow the path of a Bodhisattva to escape samsara, that all one needed to do was to get out, and this is why he taught the Sravakayana. I do not think that any tradition actually objects to this point.
Hmmm, I guess so. It's not that I'm trying to argue that some sect or another is wrong or right or more ultimate or something, or that anybody is malicious (well, "every heart is sinful and desperately wicked"). But I'm still trying to figure out if I can really agree that there is no Mahayana school / non-Mahayana school division. I'll continue to dwell on the subject occasionally. - Nat Krause 18:15, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
I didn't take it that you were looking for dirt, but to the issue of Mahayana/non-mahayana, which (I believe) is a more interesting discourse.
My point above (as ever) was that mahayana is the path of the Bodhisattva, not a group of schools. In this sense, mahayana is recognised by the Theravada and other Nikaya schools (though they may dispute that schools that call themselves 'mahayana' are actually following the mahayana path!)
Regarding the division itself, we need to ask ourselves "Is it useful? -Does it serve a good purpose?" If we look 'across the road' to Christianity, at the division into Catholicism and Protestantism - is that a legitimate division of Christianity? And in one sense, the answer is 'Yes' because by definition Protestants have protested against Catholicism, though a quick trip to the List_of_Christian_denominations will show just how reductive such a division is. Why I brought this up is that I believe that early Western scholars were looking for a similar division of Buddhism as a rationale (e.g. the 'northern buddhists' of China and the 'southern buddhists' of Ceylon), but were possibly faced with the dilemma of attempting to find the "Martin Luther" of Buddhism. Of course, if they did think this way, they missed the point - in that Buddhism has a different cultural background, and is imbued with a completely distinct set of messages than those that are found in the Ibrahimic religions.
My working assumption of the distinction between the Nikaya and non-Nikaya schools is based upon the concept of transmission. I believe that the Nikaya only recognise transmission through scripture, whereas non-Nikaya recognise transmission through realisation. This allows the non-Nikaya to be more creative, adaptive, and dynamic with scriptural elements, in that (if you will) they are more interested in the Spirit of the law rather than the Letter of the law; moreover, because they recognise the idea of transmission of realisation, then who they call 'Buddha' is not just the person who walked and taught in the C6th BCE, but also the consequences of his actions and teachings. This then allows for the later authorship of sutras, which are indeed spoken by the Buddha, but not in the way that is normally meant by such an idea- the individuals who penned the words 'heard the sutra' through realisation; for them to claim that it is 'their own' realisation would imply the existence of a self that they do not wish - moreover, they could claim, whatever remnants of their self-grasping there is could not write dharma - dharma is the pure expression of Buddha's mind - and in that sense, it is more appropriate to say that the text is indeed authored by Buddha.
So following this tirade, the Nikaya, non-Nikaya distinction can indeed be made (by identifying those that agree solely with the Pali or it's equivalents). However, we still need to ask ourselves is such a distinction, on those lines, relavant or useful? It is really clear that e.g. the Pure Land traditions are completely distinct from any of the Tibetan traditions, and certainly in some respects (e.g. Tibetan monastic vinaya) the Tibetan tradition is considerably closer to Theravada than it is to Korean or other Mahayana monastic vinaya, though in many other respects their are other similarities.
I wouldn't try to make too clear a distinction between the Tibetan and the east Asian Mahayana. When I went to Taiwan in 1984 I was surprised to find so many similarities in the rituals at some temples with the Tibetan rituals I was familiar with. The Tibetan variety of Vajrayana was the preferred religion of the Mongols and the Manchus when they were ruling China. And it is Chinese custom to practise more than one school at any time. They often don't regard different schools as contradictory but simply as having different functions. For example, people go to a mandala offering ceremony to receive blessings & make offerings. They recite Pureland texts mantras when someone dies or to ensure longevity. Pure Mahayana without Vajrayana is sometimes practised in the Tibetan tradition but it is simply overwhelmed by the preponderance of the Vajrayana. I knew a monk in the Tibetan tradition who was advised by his lamas not to take deity empowerments and to just practise Mahayana teachings. This was his personal decision and there are other individuals in similar situations. It is a matter of personal potential which teachings are best suited.--Bodhirakshita 09:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I had an interesting discussion with an academic the other day about just how cartesian and C19th the whole idea of cataloguing, categorising and taxonomising is; how the mid C20th brought about the ability for us to break out of these absolutist concepts, and yet how incredibly reluctant we are to let go of them as building blocks, and see them just as the patterns that they are - models that are useful for certain purposes only, but no nearer or further from any objective truth than any other model that we wish to use.
Hmmm.. Obviously drank lots of coffee this morning! (20040302 11:24, 9 May 2004 (UTC))
You have made a good distinction between the Nikaya & non-Nikaya but what do all these different traditions have in common that makes them Buddhist? There are a number of factors that all orthodox Buddhist schools share. The Buddha outlined 37 factors which he considered prerequisites to enlightenment. They are known in the Pali Canon as the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma, the Wings to Awakening. As they are common to the Foundational Vehicle (The Dalai Lama now uses "Foundational Vehicle" in preference to "Hinayana" which has derogatory connotations) & the other schools it not incorrect to say that the other schools are based on the Foundational Vehicle. These factors are what distinguish Buddhism from other religions.
A Theravadan article on the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma can be found at http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html --Bodhirakshita 08:40, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well put, Bodhirakshita. (Sorry for the 7 month lag!) Since I wrote this, I have not changed my view-point much - though I further feel that we also see a division between Nikaya and Mahayana on the basis of the nature of a Buddha after death. This is the distinction between Nirvana-with-remainder and Nirvana-without-remainder. After all, according to Mahayanists, Sakyamuni Buddha is still directly teaching and will continue to do so until the end of time, whereas from what I understand of the Nikaya, Sakyamuni Buddha ceased to teach directly on the moment of his Parinirvana. Regarding to the commonality of Buddhism, I guess I would also say that accordance with-
  • The belief that Sakyamuni is (for our time and our planet) uniquely realised.
  • The maintenance, promotion, and study of the Tripitaka
  • The support and maintenance of one of the ancient lineages of Vinaya

In other words, the institutional support and maintenance of the three refuges. I guess this is possibly more contentious, but my personal view sees that as pretty reasonable. (20040302 14:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC))

[edit] What is Vajrayana? A faster path to enlightenment

I have a problem with this section which puts the emphasis on the speed factor of Vajrayana when it's chief characteristics are purification & transformation, purifying thought & action & transforming passions & delusions into wisdoms. See http://www.dzogchen.org.au/buddhism.html I think the whole section should be re-written. - --Bodhirakshita 04:25, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Second speed-up technique: Esoteric Transmission or Initiation"

"The esoteric transmission framework can take varying forms. The Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism uses a method called dzogchen. Other Tibetan Kagyu schools and the Shingon school in Japan use an alternative method called mahamudra."

This is incorrect on several counts. Dzogchen transmission is not the same as Vajrayana initiation or empowerment. Dzogchen transmission has a different function to Vajrayana. Dzogchen is also found in the Bön tradition & in the Kagyu sub-sects. And again Mahamudra transmission is not Vajrayana empowerment. See the Wikipedia article Dzogchen - --Bodhirakshita 04:58, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhahood vs nirvana

This curious sentence was recently added: It should also be noted that the goal of the Mahayana and Vajrayana is the attainment of Buddhahood, whereas the goal for Theravada pracitce is liberation from the cycle of rebirth in Nirvana.

Did I miss something in Buddhism 101, or isn't attaining Buddhahood the same as liberation from the cycle of rebirth...? Jpatokal 01:07, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I thoroughly don't know, but many people would say they are not the same. They are making a distinction between arhatship and Buddhahood. To be clearer, Buddhahood is seen as a type of arhatship, i.e. a type of liberation from samsara. Ideally, this should be reflected in the article. - Nat Krause 02:29, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
There are 3 types of Buddhahood: Sravaka, Pratyeka & Samyaksam Buddha. See the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinayana - --Bodhirakshita 03:50, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's not at all clear to me that you can have gradations of Buddha-ness. Awakenedness isn't supposed to be composite, so it's hard to see how you could break it down. If an Arhat is not considered by (some?) Mahayanists(?) to be a real Buddha, then I think that is something that should be said. I think Jpatokal's 18-month-old observation ought to be addressed somewhere, but I've no idea which article is most appropriate.
I don't know which kinds of Buddhist think that Arhatship is not a kind of Buddhahood, but I know that some take that view. I'd like to know which Buddhists take which view, and what their reasonings are.
--MrDemeanour 21:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Vajrayana Buddhists make a distinction between enlightenment (Buddhahood, cessation of all illusion and confusion) and liberation (cessation of the illusory ego). The Theravada term of 'enlightenment' is the same thing as the Vajrayana term of liberation. What Theravada sees as the goal, Vajrayana sees as the first step. Hope this clears things up.
--Zormal 18:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Zormal! Actually I'm familiar with the distinction that vajrayanists make; I'm curious as to whether other buddhists make a similar distinction between arhats and samyaksambuddhas. I'd also like to have some better understanding of what the difference is. As I understand it, it's to do with the removal of progressively more subtle veils of ignorance - but what do I know :-)

MrDemeanour 12:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The difference between Nirvana and Buddha hood.

Nirvana is a Sanskrit word as you well know, but did you know it consists of tree words, Nir Vad Djna, literally this mean “Without wrong thought”, at least this is what my teacher Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche taught me. To reach Nirvana is to come to the end of ones preconceived ideas, to the place where the world is new at every moment.

Buddha hood is to gain the state of a Buddha, to be a Buddha is to gain throughout ages an accumulation of merits or positive accumulated fearlessness to deal with the parts of life that beings do not like to deal with and witch make up what is commonly known as the subconscious. Having gained a storage of “good merit” one will have the connection to a whole world of sentient beings, through ones work, and so will start at a proper time a new world cycle of Buddhist teachings.

To become a Buddha and to attain Nirvana is one and the same, there is no difference between the two, in actual experience. To reach Nirvana is like becoming truly sane. And to become a Buddha is to become the King of Fearlessness.

Nirvana you may gain for you self anytime but becoming a Buddha is another matter. --Mitrapa 16:32, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)Mitrapa.

Different teachers give different etymologies for the word "nirvana". The most common is as follows: "nir" is the prefix meaning "to cease" or "to stop"; "vaana" means "blowing": thus "extinguished" or "blown out" would be the literal translation. - --Bodhirakshita 03:53, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somebody please rewrite...

...the first section. How can anyone trust someone who explains the terms so poorly? Mandel June 30, 2005 19:43 (UTC)

Attempted improvements: Vajrayana isn't a school. The "three yanas" don't include "Theravada", as such. Vajrayana not really a 'subset' of the Mahayana 'school', as vajrayanists study widely in all the Mahayana schools. I'm afraid this edit felt a bit like butchery; I'll have a pop at the second paragraph separately, in the hope that this will make it easier to revert my efforts.
--MrDemeanour 18:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vajrayana texts

Shouldnt there be a sectiron about vajrayana texts ( sutras,tantras ) etc . And links to external sites that have vajrayana texts .Farhansher 8 July 2005 04:16 (UTC)

Any cononical Vajrayana texts that aren't tantras are also texts that non-tantric schools of Buddhism accept (Sutra, Vinaya, Shastra). So you are asking for a section about the Tantra#Tibetan_tantra; this exists already.
If you are asking for a catalogue of Buddhist tantras, it might be hard to get a definitive set (according to some traditions, they are numberless); and it's not clear what the 'regular' reader would be expected to make of a list of names of Buddhist tantras. Since those to whom these texts have been properly explained are generally bound to maintain some degree of confidence/secrecy, people are stuck with the titles of the tantras, their alleged authors, and some handwaving stuff like that.
I don't know what we are supposed to do about this, unless some non-vajrayana philologist who understands the language wants to come along and expound the tantras to folks who are is considered by vajrayanists to be incapable of understanding the explanation. And how could someone with a "correct" knowledge of the material revise it, without breaking their vows?
I think a decent explanation of the philological/anthropological/whatever view of what is known about these texts would be fantastic. I have only one reference of that kind though:
David Snelgrove, Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, Shambhala Press, ISBN1-57062-973-0
Very interesting, lots of footnotes, quite a lot of repetition. Very good (in my ill-informed opinion) on the relationships between the different classes of Buddhist tantras. Large section on the connections between Buddhist and Shaivite tantra, and some serious discussion about the origins of the practices. Some material that is rather explicit, and that probably should be considered off-bounds to practitioners, unless they have the proper permission.
I'm not tantric - I think you are supposed to have some realisation of emptiness before it makes any sense to try to approach tantra; but such teaching as I have had was all aimed in a generally-tantric direction.
--MrDemeanour 23:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, you are more or less right. It's impossible to have any substantial ability in one's practice of Buddhist tantra without a strong grounding in both emptiness and bodhicitta. Of course, there are plenty of practitioners who do NOT have such a grounding, and I guess it would be rude or provocative to tell them that they are not tantrics! The classical source for differentiation of the tantras is a Tibetan historian called Bu-ston; his works are still relied upon by academics from the East and West. Of course, there are many other issues regarding Tantra - for instance, is the mere mantra recitation tantra? We find similar 'dharanis' for warding off snakes and so on even in the Pali canon. I could waffle on for pages.. (20040302)

[edit] "Should..."

"Secrecy is a cornerstone of tantric Buddhism, simply to avoid the practices from harming oneself and others without proper guidance. One should realise that it is not even allowed to explain the full symbolism and psychology of the practice to the un-initiated, so obviously, this leads to misunderstanding and dismissal. Tantric techniques may initially appear to consist of ritualistic nonsense; however, it should only be practiced on the basis of a thorough understanding of Buddhist philosophy and strictly following the traditions."

It is not the place of wikipedia to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

Also this passage is POV. There are many people who think that the policy of witholding religious teachings from the uninitiated is more for the benefit of the teachers, the hierarchy, than of the disciple, because it makes the disciple politically dependent on the teacher. For instance this was the reason for Nichiren's hostility to Shingon. Nichiren said (at least according to the way his teachings are interpreted and taught within Soka Gakkai International) that enlightenment depended on the individual's faith rather than on a mastery of techniques or on intercession from others. I assume that there are other Buddhists and Buddhologists who take a similar view (analogous to Luther's objection to the obscurantism of the Catholic Church) and who would therefore have the a similar objection to the Vajrayana position.

Some relatively minor rewording should be enough to keep everybody happy :-) Ireneshusband 04:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entheogens

Why was my addition of a bullet point (with citation: http://www.earthrites.org/magazine_article_crowley.htm) noting the potential use of entheogens within Tantric Buddhism deleted?

Response: First, "theo" means "god", and buddhism is a non-theistic religion. (Deva/yidam is a different thing) Then most gurus are explicit against drugs, even if there is some use of alcohol as "samaya substance". Even if this is a true secret vajrayana practice (which I sincerely doubt), an encyclopedia entry should not expose esoteric and controversial knowledge about its subject, but what is publically known. Third, the article referred does not conform to academic standards of quality, and is seemingly just a sensationalist piece. If some aknowledged scholar in the vajrayana made the comment, then the possibility would have to be acredited. Since "Mike Crowley" is vastly unknown and have never been even quoted or cited in any of the works on vajrayana I have read, it seems to me his opinion should not be publicly related to vajrayana.

I am the second one to have deleted the reference. I don't know who first did it.

Response: First, if you'd prefer the word "psychedelic," that's fine. I was using the term "entheogen" to abate controversy. I meant it in its loose sense, which generally uses the root "theo" to refer to anything that approximates the divine, but psychedelic may work better. Second, Wikipedia is full of controversial interpretations of historical writings. As long as they are acknowledged as such (as I did) and supported with references (as I did), I see no problem with mentioning them in an encyclopedia. I've seen some real unfounded nonsense on here pass for vaguely argued "possibilities," and mine is certainly a cut above most of them. Third, your ad hominem attacks on the author of my reference hold little water. Mike Crowley may not be a well-known scholar, and he may have merely posted his book online instead of going through the proper channels of publication, but his argument is more than sound if one gives it the chance. Furthermore, his work is online and freely available for scutiny if anyone chooses to click on the link.

I've been deleted again. Your bias is disgusting. You are the reason why many people rightfully hate and fear the democratic nature of Wikipedia.

This is not bias. It is an application of policy. Please read WP:V. Web sources are not permitted. I have no objection to the inclusion of the information as long as you can provide a reputable source. Ekajati 14:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The Mike Crowley pages are definitely filled with supposition and hypothesis mixed up with fact - and his authority is questionable. His understanding of Abhisheka and Amrita is particularly limited, and his correlation of Amrita with Soma is mostly mistaken. Regardless, there are rare (very rare!) instances of drugs being directly mentioned - not the drugs that Crowley talks about - not in the way in which Crowley specifies - and certainly not as entheogens - but for other purposes. This is not the place to discuss such things. As a general rule, I concur with Ekajati etc. regarding the placement of the Crowley pages - it is more likely to further confuse what is already a largely mistaken area of practice and study(20040302 12:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC))


Response: I do not think this is a topic which needs to be discussed in a highly public forum like wikipedia. However, the use of entheogens in the Vajrayana tradition has been well documented in reputable sources by such respected scholars as Ronald M Davidson, William George Stablein, Bulcsu Siklos, David B. Gray, Benoytosh Bhattacharyya, Shashibhusan Das Gupta, Francesca Fremantle, Shinichi Tsuda, David Gordon White, Rene de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, James Francis Hartzell, Edward Todd Fenner, Ian Baker, Dr. Pasang Yonten Arya and others. If you would like additional information you can contact me by writing to "thecontemplative" *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com* Thecontemplative (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vajra

Anyone knows what Vajra means? I couldn't find it, and i think it should be mentioned in the very first of the article.Janviermichelle 00:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

-- I've just addressed this; folks might see fit to move my remarks to a new (stub?) article. -- MrDemeanour 19:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] where to put this?

[1]

don't know yet.

[edit] Psychedelics and sex.

Can we please delete that? It is ridiculous and that source has been proven to be incorrect. Crowley has mentioned that the khatvanga entering a skullcup looks like an inverted mushroom. Well he's wrong. The Heruka tsog puja text (which contains the process) clearly states that the khatvanga melts into the skullcup, therefore making it impossible to look like a mushroom. The whole inner offering is the offering of emptiness, so I don't see how emptiness could possibly have anything to do with 'magic mushrooms'. He also forgot to mention how the rest of the process is related to mushrooms, so he clearly picks out what might make sense and takes it out of it's original context. That is just one example of how flimnsy his evidence is.

As for the sexual refernce, it only is symbolic and therefore should explain the symbolism instead of what's there. It is not a central practise of Vajrayana, as Lama Tsong Khapa gained enlgihtenment without it.

Jmlee369 21:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deity practice

I removed the following, misleading fragment from the article:

"Deity Tantra is often practiced at the moment directly prior to sexual climax. The practitioner takes a consort and this is practiced in pairs. Often times the couple pictures themselves as the deities in the mandala making love."

It gives the impression that tantric buddhist deity practices are predominantly done in a "sexual" setting. In reality however, these deity practices are just meditation practices - with no consort involved. In anuttarayogatantra, the deities often do have consorts, but anuttarayogatantra is not relevant to most tantric practitioners.

[edit] And where to put this?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.7.113 (talk) 10:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Countires?

I'd like to see some info about which countries vajrayana is practiced in today? Hohohahaha (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prettifed too much?

Why? Revealing it's cultish won't hurt ppl reading but will bring some light on those poor females. Vajrayana is a combination of Buddhism,Hinduism,and Shamanism. The Definition as a sect of Buddhism is not accepted by many Buddhist. Mea Culpa (talk) 06:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)