Talk:Vachel Lindsay
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Hi... I am not sure this is the right page to respond, but I wrote the original Vachel Lindsay article. I have material to back up comments... but honestly this is the first time that I have written something that has been critiqued in this way... so I would welcome some guidance of what you are actually suggesting that we add here. Much has been written on Lindsay; it just struck me as amazing that nobody had written on him here. Regarding the quotation of the poems, I can give the citations. Regarding the racism allegations, I tried to hit a balance between those critics who have lambasted Lindsay for racism with those who, like me, feel he was fairly enlightened for his time and was a fine poet. If I erred here, help me in cleaning this up. As a professor, I tried to tone down the scholarly aspect of my usual writing... that said, if I toned it down so much that this has become unacceptable as material, I would be happy to modify it. I simply need some direction that is a bit clearer than "Every single part of it qualifies as original research"... In short, what DOES qualify as reliable source material... I can provide this to whatever extent and in whichever format the wiki editors suggest. David A. Victor 14:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)David A. VictorDavid A. Victor 14:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Started this cleanup list at 01:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC). Add to it. Move stuff around. Cross it off. Post regular talk messages below as before.
You ask for a free use image. One of the more well-known portraits of VL can be found at http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/lindsay/lindsay.htm The page also has a link to other images that may enhance the page. I suppose they are available for fair use. The person who has posted them on that site has also given his e-mail address if you want to make sure. Dr. Mc 15:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Dr. Mc |
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[edit] Improvement
This article is riddled with POV and uncited, unverified claims. I tagged the crap out of it. I will post a to do list that anyone can add to, it's above, add to it as you see stuff to work on. This work is kind of an offshoot to an improvement drive for Springfield, Illinois So let's get at it. It looks like at least one comment is recent, everything else is mostly unsigned. If there is anything good in there I will grab it and put it in the to do list or an appropriate talk section, otherwise I will soon delete any of the unsigned stuff that isn't part of a current discussion.A mcmurray 01:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
How can an article about poetry not have POV? The judgement that a poet ought to be written about at all presumes POV. I'm not saying that your (i.e. Wikipedia's) general policy of neutrality is not applicable but the attribution of value to poetry is subjective e.g. to some John Ashberry's work is valid poetry to others it is decent prose broken into verse-like lines204.137.52.208 23:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)Roger Brown
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- While Lindsay most certainly meets the notability criteria on Wikipedia, I don't think that Wikipedia's job is to attribute value to anyone, merely to present the information and let the facts speak for themselves. I would say that there isn't any reason why material that is presented can't be objective, balanced and cover all significant scholarly views without emphasizing any one POV. IvoShandor 07:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Congo
Too much politically correct breast-beating about this poem. It is what it is. Ur a retard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This last is hardly brilliant commentary... this rather lowers the credibility of your other comments... which on the whole are quite reasonable. DV
I might not agree with Ur a retard!!!!!, but I agree with the general idea--there's far too much about perceived racism. F. Scott Fitzgerald used the word "buck" in Tender is the Night, released in 1934, and yet there isn't a fifth of his wikipedia entry devoted to it. --Dan Moore 20:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. I do think that there is too much POV here. Whether or not Lindsay's depiction of African-Americans should be considered in the light of racial attitudes of the time is POV and not the purpose of this article. However, I think it a disservice to future readers to simply ignore the problem as it bears significantly on Lindsay's career. Lindsay had intended "The Congo" as an "ode to the Negro race." As such, its purpose was to engender inclusiveness. Contrary to this purpose, it antagonized many African-American critics of the time. Ultimately, the poem failed to accomplish the ends he set for it. The fact that his most famous poem failed in its original purpose is important to our current understanding and appreciation of VL.
I am reluctant to edit this section without input from others concerned with the article. I made a suggestion about how to proceed under the title "an offer to help." I apologize that I am somewhat the luddite and am not sure where I should be putting these comments.
Dr. Mc 16:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Dr. Mc
[edit] Lindsay article as a whole
This article is replete with errors, some of which will demand more than just a simple correction of words--an effort I, quite frankly, haven't the time to do. I thought I'd leave this list for another more ambitious than I.
Comment on the preceding sentence: For someone unwilling to edit the article yourself, you have spent more than enough words commenting here. Pity.
Introduction:
Lindsay was not "an early advocate of jazz poetry." This is a persistent myth born of an unfortunate comment made by Louis Untermeyer which Lindsay resented. None of Lindsay's poems were inspired by jazz. Lindsay never recited to jazz (or any other accompaniment). Lindsay hated jazz; he considered it the worst of American music.
This last comment is open to serious question.
Early Years:
Lindsay's father was Vachel Thomas Lindsay.
"considerable means" is open to interpretation. The family was not what most would consider "wealthy"
title should be "The Eagle that is Forgotten"
"Rhymes to be Traded for Bread" was printed in 1912. It was never sold (It was not intended for sale but, as its title testifies, as currency in place of money for his third tramp.)
Lindsay's first tramp was from Jacksonville, Florida to Kentucky. He made no attempt to sell poems on this tramp nor on his second tramp from New York to Ohio.
Lindsay carried the self-published "Rhymes to be Traded for Bread" on his third tramp. He used the sheaf of poems as currency for food and lodging.
Lindsay composed "General William Booth Enters into Heaven" on his third tramp. "The Congo" was composed at his home a year later.
Dr. Mc
[edit] addendum to above
This article assumes that Lindsay's suicide was a result of financial pressure. This is a speculation posited in Edgar Lee Masters's biography. It is open to debate and by no means universally accepted by scholars.
Lindsay's last words, spoken to his wife, were "They tried to get me. I got them first." However, he did not leave a suicide note.
Dr. Mc
[edit] Chicago
WP Chicago needs to stop adding this tag to every page that mentions the word chicago. This is out of control. IvoShandor 12:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] An Offer of Help
Dr. Victor--I am an expert on Vachel Lindsay (I wrote my doctoral dissertation on him). Like you, I think that Lindsay was much more enlightened than current criticism would have us believe, and I think his work is under-appreciated. I'd like to offer my help in cleaning up this page.
I think there is some, perhaps unitended, POV in the section on the racist themes in The Congo. For example, a phrase like "pervasive at the time" may seem more apologetic than objective. I don't agree that this concern is just breast-beating. The issue is important. Perhaps it would be better to begin with a sentence like "The racial stance of 'The Congo' has been controversial since its first publication" and then simply cite a few examples pro and con. I don't have them at hand right now, but I can quickly find such things as DuBoise's comment in Italic textThe CrisisItalic text and Van Doren's early review of the poem. These would illustrate the controversy without the article making a judgment.
I have some other difficulties with the text as it stands. For example, there are some factual problems with the mention of Langston Hughes. I also note that the reasons discussed for Lindsay's suicide follow the take on this incident asserted by Edgar Lee Masters in his biography of Lindsay. Masters had some very strong ulterior motives for writing the Lindsay biography, consequently much of what he has to say is suspect.
We can address these matters as well, but in the interest of a good article, I suggest we clean up the "racist themes" section first. I await a response
Dr. Mc
[edit] WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Self–assertion and rebellion
You're a successful professional (rich doctor). You have an odd, distinctive name (Vachel). When your son is born, you give him your name. This makes him feel that he is expected to be like you, a "Mini-Me." In order to assert his independence, individuality, and self–will, he goes to the opposite extreme and becomes a wandering, starving troubador. This is perfectly natural.Lestrade 19:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Lestrade
