Talk:V8 Supercars

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[edit] Colour

can some one please change the red and blue section of the ATCC champions (1993-2004) to a colour that doesn't blind people, a plainer/darker blue and red. --Ballchef 06:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Done. ZoFreX 06:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Race format

Please provide a discussion of the race format. Specifically, readers from other countries may not be familiar with the qualifying and shootout format used by this series.

[edit] WikiProject V8 Supercars

Hello all. Please be a part of WikiProject V8 Supercars and help to drastically expand and improve this vital piece of Australian Motorsport. TydeNet 03:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propose split

What do others think about splitting the Australian Touring Car Championship (presently a redirect to V8 Supercar) out from this article into a separate one? Many of the reasons to link to ATCC predate V8SC. --Scott Davis Talk 12:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I know you posted this a little while ago, but I wholeheartedly agree, the Australian Touring Car Championship has a rich history that predates V8 Supercar, and I can't even find a table of winners prior to 1993 anywhere on wikipedia. Teiresias84 06:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external links

Why are the external links over in the sidebar? Especially on a 1920x1080 display, they're particularly out of the way and hard to find. Could they be moved back per WP:MOS? --Interiot 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 Philip Island Finale Shame Holden or just fair racing?

Well what a spectacular finale to the year with the final of 3 races being marred by what some would call unfair racing, with the 2 top leaders having a tussle on the last of 3 races to decide the Championship and one driver shunting the other off the track. One side will say it was all fair in love and war and unfortunate but 'thats racing', with the other camp saying bad sportsmanship and points should be adjusted accordingly to enforce that fair play is what should be the procedure in such a tightly contested class. With the matter going to the arbitration group we will have an 'unbiased' outcome. With Rick Kelly winning the championship and Lowndes 2nd due to this altercation, however it finishes, Kelly will never have a "true" championship win- with public opinions bipolar. What an unfortunate series of events of a quite amazing finish to the V8 Supercars Finale. Finally the v8s had a real year of racing, a real ratings plus for just a two make race series (holden vs ford). As they admit interest in a two horse race is hard to keep and has been in decline in past years as consumers discover kart racing, drift and other classes of races with more than two makes, this incident will obviously get people talking and interest going. Under discussion behind closed doors, will the v8 Supercars go back to China? Will they admit Toyota? or another (mercedes/bmw/mitsubishi etc)? to make racing more interesting and increase ratings/sponsorship? will they relax the rev limit policy? Well time will tell... Whatever happens 2006 Finale race will be debated, R.Kelly may be the Championship leader but not in the eyes of many, which is a very unfortunate set of events. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.90.255.198 (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Hi there. Interesting questions, but talk pages are about discussion to improve the article concerned not as a general forum for discussing the topic at hand. --Robert Merkel 14:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Founding Year

In the infobox it says V8 supercars was founded in 1997, but in the history section it makes it sound like it started in 1993 (e.g. the list of drivers champions). I think the infobox should be changed to 1993 or the history section made a little clearer so people can see why 1997 is in the infobox. GK1 17:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I've completed a template for the touring car seasons but, similar to the comment above, there is some discrepency in the years for each incarnation. If somebody knows could they fix up the following statements (and the template also!)
Touring_car_racing#V8_Supercar
The current formula was devised in 1993 and branded at 'V8 Supercars' in 1997
V8_Supercar_Championship_Series#History
The Australian Touring Car Championship was transformed into V8 Touring Cars in 1993
In 2005 the name was changed to V8 Supercars Australia.


Australian Touring Car Championship
From 1999 to 2001 it was awarded to the winner of the Shell Championship Series and from 2002 to the winner of the V8 Supercar Championship Series.
The template as it stands looks clumsy with the three tiers when there was really only two. The only significant change between 2001 and 2002 was that Shell decided they weren't going to pay the sponsorship when AVESCO's price tag went from $5 million to $11 million. While someone can change it back, I've merged the 1999-2001 and 2002-beyond sections together. Personally I'd like a complete merging but 1999 is significant for the categories formal abandoning of the 'Touring Car' moniker. Falcadore 10:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
there was Konica also, not just Shell
- Ctbolt 05:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Not correct. Konica was sponsor of the second tier series, never the main series. Falcadore 07:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 02:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The 1993 V8 Touring Cars was just another regulation change, similar to the advent of Group A in 1985 and Group C before it in 1973. The reason why there is the conflict between 1993 & 1997 is political in nature. V8 Supercar Australia (formerly AVESCO) took control of the ATCC in 1997, but because of the Holden/Ford regulations already in place were not significantly changed frequently claim credit for the preceeding four years. Falcadore 07:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 10:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TEGA

TEGA has a five position board, not four.203.185.235.165 02:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The V8Supercar Teams

References to 2006 Endurance co-drivers should probably be removed. Dick Johnson Racing has won six championships, not four. 1981, 1982, 1984, 1988, 1989 and 1995. Britek entry needs updating to reflect Bright's change to owner/driver. Rod Nash Racing entry should state the team is actually International Race Cars Australia team run under the auspicies of Rod Nash Racing.203.185.235.165 04:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Figures

Jim Richards is a four times champion, not three. 1985, 1987, 1990 & 1991. Dick Johnson has won Bathurst three times, 1981, 1989 & 1994 not two. Qualifying lap record is unofficial. If any mention Of Bathurst lap record is to be made it should be to the actual lap record holder, Mark Skaife. Alan Jones has not had any involvement with V8Supercar since 2002, considering his lack of results his consideration as a notable figure is dubious. James Courtney should be stated as a Jaguar Racing test driver.203.185.235.165 04:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC) Peter Brock is the Step-father of James Brock. James Brock (born Brock McIntosh) is the son of James McIntosh and Beverley Brock.203.185.235.165 04:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Teams contesting the 2007 V8 Supercar Championship Series

Team names here should correspond to team names listed earlier under 'The V8Supercar Teams'. There should also be a consensus whether to refer to all teams by sponsor names or the historical names of the teams. eg Either Kelly Motorsport & Triple Eight Engineering or HSV Dealer Racing and Team Vodafone.203.185.235.165 04:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Perth Street Circuit

Hi everyone! This is my first post on a talk page so please don't kill me . . . Okay. Has anyone else heard about the proposal for a street circuit in Perth? I read in The West Australian newspaper a few months ago about the V8 Supercars racing on Perth's streets by 2008, and, being a citizen of Perth, it really mattered to me. I am rather puzzled by the fact that this decision that could drastically change the 2008 season hasn't been addressed on the Official V8 Supercars Website, let alone Wikipedia. It would be great if anyone had information that they could put into the article, but it would be hard to verify the information. I also made a map of the circuit, and I would be glad to provide it. Hopefully, together, we can address this matter. Thankyou for listening, Stealthman 02:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There has been rumour of a Perth street circuit for years. I was first shown an 'official' map of such a circuit in 1999. Usually Perth Street Circuit rumours are pushed forward when somebody wants improvements made to Barbagallo Raceway. Townsville is certainly closer to being realised. I would advise against adding information on new venues that V8Supercar have not confirmed.203.185.235.208 10:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I see. I'd just like to add that it made the front page and there was a whole two-page spread dedicated to the matter. It had quotes by drivers on what a good idea they thought it would be and a picture of the circuit's designer holding up an aerial photograph of the streets that had been painted over with a map. I also read that V8 Supercars Australia (formerly AVESCO) was looking for approval from the state Government. Either way, it was big news - at least in The West Australian. P.S. Townsville??? When did that come up?? Stealthman 12:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Perth would be less important than the already made announcemnt that V8Supercar are moving from Pukekohe to a street circuit to Hamilton next year. Unlike Perth this has been confirmed. There also have been street circuit announcements made regarding Cronulla, Homebush Bay, Townsville and Auckland but to date of the many rumoured street circuits the only one V8Supercar has grown themselves to fruition is the long collapsed Canberra circuit. Were Wiki to include Perth then certainly you would have to add Townsville, possibly the new I-METT facility announced for Norwell. At this point there is little to seperate Perth street circuit from say the Bunbury International Circuit farce. Lots of godwill, but no concrete announcements. Townsville was all set to be announced for the 2008 calendar, even to the point of the WPS team visiting and putting on a civic event in the city along with their super-annuated Reynard Indycar, pending support from the Beattie State Government, which subsequently was declined. The Townsville V8 organisers has swallowed this blow and have found additional money elsewhere and with some help from Federal Government, may yet beable to salvage something for 2009.203.185.235.78 04:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Belatedly it occurs to me that it might be a good addition to the Perth article rather than the V8Supercar article as the speculation appears to have come from the Perth end.Falcadore 12:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This issue was covered in the Sunday Times on 22 April 2007 [1]. The WA Sporting Car Club, which owns the Wanneroo Barbagallo Raceway and runs (albeit with tight control by AVESCO) the Perth round each year has a brief response on their website [2]. I'd like to express my opinion on the issue, but Wikipedia is not the place. -- Andrew Mill 08:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Update! I've just remembered a newspaper cutout I have from a later issue of "The West". Actually, two newspaper cutouts. They both make note of the fact that the V8s will not return to Barbagallo after 2008, and V8 Supercars is (or have been) seeking a backing budget of thirteen million dollars. And I quote:

V8 chiefs keen to take it to the street

WA's Garth Tander says he has finally accepted the need for the V8 Supercars to move from Barbagallo Raceway to a street circuit in the city. [...] The Holden driver, who grew up in Leeming, admits the supercars have outgrown the raceway and the millions of dollars of required improvements would not be a worthwhile investment, given the track's proximity to residential estates. [...] The group which owns the Supercar series has warned next year's race will be the last at Barbagallo Raceway and WA will lose its annual V8 round unless it emulates Adelaide, Melbourne and the Gold Coast in establishing a street circuit.

...end quote. Actually, Falcadore may be right in suggesting that the street circuit matter be addressed in an article to do with Perth. Perhaps the article on Barbagallo Raceway itself...? Stealthman 10:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


Well, it's been a while and, frankly, I reckon we should just forget about the whole thing now - the state government has refused to support the perth street race (see this link). V8 Supercars is basically lost to Perth now, because Barbagallo's contract expires in 16 months. Sorry, everyone, about starting up this whole kerfuffle and all... Stealthman (talk) 09:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear... something seems to have popped up. I have only just read on a website (The West Australian again) about the state opposition pledging to resurrect the event if it wins the next state elections! (If you need any proof, look in Sports on the newspaper's website, and find "Street Race Bid finds Support".) However, there could still be a doubt... that being the paths taken by other street circuit plans and all - any reflections on this? (By the way, this article only came out today) - Stealthman (talk) 10:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] China

It's been 2 years and the series won't be going back for a number of reasons, can we remove some of the Shanghai references? Being now dead event its status in the article probably deserves to be on par with Canberra rather than the prominence it now has. Thoughts?Falcadore 00:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There are two main reasons why I think that the references to the race at the Shanghai International Circuit should be kept in the article: 1. The race organisers didn't say they would never return to Shanghai; the event was merely put on hold indefinetly (it says so in the article) - it is not exactly a "dead event". 2. The race was significant to the expansion of the championship as it was the first time the V8 Supercar Series went overseas - if it hadn't been for Shanghai, V8 Supercars might not be visiting Bahrain right now. I'm pretty sure this will be open to heated discussion, so I'll just sit back and watch as the disagreements begin . . . . . . . Stealthman 08:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It is a very dead event. 'Indefinite hold' was a face saving exercise and held as much truth as 'non-core promise'. Bahrain was entirely independant of Shanghai, the Bahrain circuit had specific criteria for expansionary events which only V8Supercar met. --Falcadore (talk) 02:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, you obviously know more about this than I do, so I stand corrected. Stealthman (talk) 10:12, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I know this discussion is a little old but I think Shanghai should be removed from the Marquee Events section. I don't think it has enough notability to justify two paragraphs and a photo. Anyone have any objections to its removal? --Fruv (talk) 05:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Please. The photo might be recycleable. --Falcadore (talk) 06:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Done. I couldn't find a good place for the photo so I removed it too. If anyone can find a good place for it go ahead and add it. --Fruv (talk) 23:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supercheap Auto Racing

Since it's likely that the Supercheap Auto sponsorship will move to another team for 2008, and that SCA have sponsored more than one race team in the past I'd like to rename all references to the about to be defunct Supercheap Auto Racing to the teams original name, Paul Weel Racing. --Falcadore (talk) 02:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:TollHSV.jpg

Image:TollHSV.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Bathurst 1000

The 2006 Bathurst 1000 became a very emotional event to all drivers, teams, friends and fans of one of it's greatest drivers in its history, 9 time winner of the "Great Race", Peter Brock (killed in the Targa West rally event the month before).

--This paragraph needs more than one sentence. reidbold Dec 14 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 20:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No, any description of any length on that subject should go on the 2006 Bathurst 1000 page, and you're welcome to write it. Information specific to a single race should go on the pages of the individual races. --Falcadore (talk) 22:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General edit

We're starting to get some serious quality issues sneaking into this article because of continual small changes and a variety of editors, and a general overhaul is starting to look overdue. Some duplicated information and bad writing is appearing across the page now. (stuff like Most Challenging Race is History!!! Oldest EVER!!) --Falcadore (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overseas Race Meatings Rumers

Over the past few years there has been numurose rumers of internationle events. The latest one i've herd of is a proposed suport event at the Sinapore Grand Prix althow I dout it to be true .Mad Maper 9:14, 9 Janurary 2008 (sorry about the speelling)

Pardon me if I sound rude, but what is your point? Are you suggesting there should be a paragraph added highlighting an overseas event trend?, or that you want some mention of a Singapore GP rumour? --Falcadore (talk) 22:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
No I want to talk about the rumers of overseas races weather you think its true or not becouse there have been alot of rumers about races overseas.Mad Maper 10:32, 9 Janurary 2008
Ummm, this space is for discussion about the Wikipedia V8Supercar article. Wikipedia isn't a chat forum, there are plenty of V8 Supercar forums out there, conrod.com.au, ten-tenths.com, v8central etc etc... --Falcadore (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of past teams

I'm going to dramatically trim the list of past teams recently added - a few reasons, some of the teams list have had virtually n o impact on the series, and at least three are still current teams. I propose trimming to teams which only have articles elsewhere in wikipedia, otherwise its just a list taking up space. Just in the interests of concise. --Falcadore (talk) 12:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References required

This article urgently needs references to support its assertions. These references need to meet WP:RS thus for example a reference for attendance numbers from the organisation concerned would not meet our guidelines. --Matilda talk 22:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Then I suggest your guidelines are rather silly. I would have thought that was about the only likely source. Greg Locock (talk) 02:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
They are not my guidelines, they are the project's guidleines. I don't see why they would be the only source. The odd 1/4 of a million people are likely to have been noticed by the news media and a news report would met WP:RS--Matilda talk 05:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Third party sources immune the article from claims of PR spin. It's a fairly common request. --Falcadore (talk) 08:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)



Most of the assertions in this article are unreferenced hence the banner tag. Some assertions are specifically tagged. Please do not add sources that are either the organisation concerned or from wikipedia itself.--Matilda talk 07:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Couple of points. First I realised on thinking about why wiki is not a good reference. To my engineer's mind that is untidy, but there is no simply resolvable way of deciding whether something is referenced if we have two articles referencing each other. BUT... once the notability of a concept (eg V8 supercars) is established then I have successfully argued in the past that that that subjects own website CAN be usd to prvide additiobal data. In fact RS supports that. What is the better source for a car's weight? The manufacturer, or a newspaper? Who has the most to lose if the data is wrong? Greg Locock (talk) 11:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third manufacturer

While a third vehicle manufacturer has been rumoured several times since 1995, never has there been any follow up within two weeks of the initial rumour. Third manufacturer rumours do not have a place in an article claiming to be a credible summary of its history. And what's more, the reference article is a denial of third manufacturer, its hardly a valid reference. --Falcadore (talk) 08:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Not that I care, but if Geoff Polites sees fit to comment on it then I scarcely think that it is just fanboy rumours. I think you'll find links to it in Mellor's auto news etc as well. Greg Locock (talk) 11:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Third manufacturer is generally used as a very formulaic headline generator, because it always works, in quiet periods when V8 Supercar isn't making a lot of column inches, but it is never serious, it usually begins with a V8 Supercar official stating they are investigating a third manufacturer, then a bunch of drivers say cautiously optimistic things about it until Ford or Holden, they take turns, deny it emphatically a few days later. Occasionally Toyota are sucked in to comment about how they might be interested, and Mitsubishi is mentioned a lot but Mitsubishi Australia could never afford it. It never progresses beyond that. It never will be treated seriously because VESA insist on a car similar to present V8 Supercars must race when the manufacturers who actually do want to race here, specifically Nissan and Subaru (occasionally Mercedes) would not or could not build such a car and want a set of regs closer to production cars. --Falcadore (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article order

I think this article needs to be rearranged so that its headings are in order of importance. I understand that it may be impossible to determine an exact order of importance but I think some sections are more important than others. For example, the The V8 Supercar section is the fifth one down whereas the Television Coverage section is third. I think the section that describes what a V8 Supercar is should be one of the first sections in an article about V8 Supercars.

The order I propose is this -

  • Intro (obviously)
  • History
  • The V8 Supercar
  • Championships
  • Formats
  • Marquee events
  • TEGA
  • V8 Supercars 2008 Schedule
  • 2008 V8 Supercar teams
  • Past teams
  • Notable figures
  • Television Coverage

I'll leave this for a week to allow people to comment. --Fruv (talk) 23:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

  • No problems with the reordering. I would like to see some attention paid to sources, in particular reliable sources--Matilda talk 00:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reordered the article but haven't done anything about references. --Fruv (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of 2008 V8 Supercar teams section

I propose we remove the 2008 V8 Supercar teams section. Here is my reasoning.

  • It's redundant. Links to all of the teams and drivers are provided by the Teams contesting the 2008 V8 Supercar Championship Series navbox at the bottom of the article so anyone wishing to drill down to those articles can do so without this section. This article is getting long and I think the navbox does the job in a much more concise way. At the moment the navbox is collapsed by default. We can change this so its contents is more visible.
  • It's long. 17 Paragraphs that summarise other articles. I understand that summarising related articles and using the {{main}} tag is legitimate and I think we've made good use of it with the Bathurst 1000 section but I think that one section dedicated to summarising 17 related articles is too much.
  • It's high maintenance. Having so many related articles summarised in this article means having to keep the summaries in sync. Also, as the teams and drivers change we currently have to change the navbox as well as this section. It would be a lot easier if we only needed to maintain the navbox.

This is a fairly major change so I won't do it unless I get consensus. If you can think of any reasons why this section should be kept please list them here. --Fruv (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It's also badly worded from having been hacked at so many times. I'm sick of it because of how often factually incorrect statements slip in from people pumping up their favourite teams. Do it. --Falcadore (talk) 03:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Good idea, it is just fanboy cruft. Greg Locock (talk) 07:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
OK. That's three opinions (including mine) in one week. I'm considering that to be consensus and have removed the section. I removed the Past Teams section too because there was no text in it. It was just a list of links. It also didn't seem to make much sense in the absence of the current teams section. --Fruv (talk) 04:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TEGA -> Administration

I just renamed the TEGA section to Administration and included a summary of the V8 Supercars Australia article. The new section includes the old TEGA section but I don't think should continue to. Here's my reasoning -

  • Most of what's in the TEGA section is historical and is either duplicating facts from the History section or contains facts that could be moved to the History section. I think I'm going to need help with this because my knowledge of of V8 history is a bit sketchy. Also, I'm having trouble finding references for it.
  • Now that TEGA and V8SA have combined boards, I don't think it's necessary to talk about the two groups separately. A single Administration section should be adequate.

I'll keep working on it but I'd appreciate any help that anyone can offer. --Fruv (talk) 04:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I just merged the V8 Supercars Australia article into this one and removed the TEGA section. Before removing the TEGA section I created a table of the facts from the History section and the TEGA section. You can see it at User:Fruv/TEGA_vs_V8_Supercars_History. It shows that almost every historical fact from the TEGA section had an equivalent fact in the History section making it redundant. --Fruv (talk) 04:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Formats merger proposal

It has been proposed that the V8 Supercar formats article be merged into this one. This article has a Formats section which could probably contain the contents of the other article. Reasoning -

  • The V8 Supercar Formats article is unlikely to get any bigger because it is such a specific topic.
  • This article is the only one that links to it.

Comments? I'll leave this open for discussion for a while and see what people think. --Fruv (talk) 06:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FG

I note the FG Falcon has appeared on the article but it should be noted that the FG that will debut at Sandown will actually be just a demonstrator and will not be race entered until after passing through the Project Blueprint process, which I would not personally expect until the 2009 season. --Falcadore (talk) 22:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OzRacingWrap Link

Why does the link to Ozracingwrap.com keep getting removed? Ozracingwrap is a V8 Supercar news site and not "spam" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.183.130 (talk) 15:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is spam if it is not referencing something specific to the article. Ozracingwrap is not a V8 Supercar specific site, nor does the link refer to any specific issue raised in the article. Links of such a broad based general nature are generally considered to be advert-spam. --Falcadore (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Could be understandable if the site was not V8 related - but there are numerous V8 Supercar articles on there which are updated daily on V8 news so I don't believe it to be broad based or general —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.183.130 (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Look at it - articles on ARC, F1, it IS broad based - and it still isn't referencing something specific to the article. --Falcadore (talk) 04:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)