Talk:Uthman Ibn Affan

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> Editing Talk:Uthman ibn Affan > Wikipedia does not yet have a page called Uthman ibn Affan.

That is confusing -- there is a page called Uthman ibn Affan, as I was just reading it. I wanted to post and say that it would be wonderful if someone would add the Arabic transcription of his name (as, eg, the page on Abu Bakr has). I hope I'm not inadvertently overwriting the page!


Contents

[edit] External links

I removed the MEMRI link; MEMRI, in my opinion, is a biased and untrustworthy source. The latest link is Shi'a doctrine and I've so labeled it. I didn't want to delete it, as the Shi'a viewpoint should be represented.

More links would be nice. Zora 22:01, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MEMRI just translates material from Arabic media.Nothing can be bias in that.

~~It is biased in its selective translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sufisticated (talk • contribs) 03:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from anonymous user

Moved the following text from the article here:

This article is very inaccurate! -- user:70.21.61.121

--S.K. 16:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Propose move

I propose that this page be moved to Uthman. He is by far the most famous Uthman (the first Ottoman sultan is normally called "Osman," as are his like-named successors), and his filiation is not generally known to English speakers. I am proposing the same for Umar and Ali. john k 20:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


I see what you are saying, and i agree to 100% that he is the most known Uthman, but i dont agree that we move them. Not Uthman, and not Ali. I actualy propose that we move Aisha to Aisha bint Abu Bakr and the same for Muhammad.

--Striver 22:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

That is a violation of wikipedia naming policy, which says that we put people at where they are best known in English. None of these people are even slightly known in English by their filiations. john k 22:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


hmm... oki. I still dont like the idea, since im trying to write about all the sahaba, and the best way to do it is to write the entire name for them. But i wont persist, it dosn't matter that much to me.

The Sahaba article can still use the full names - you can either pipe, or take advantage of the redirects. john k 23:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Pipe? what is that? who do i do it? --Striver 23:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

The older version of the article, to which various people have been reverting, is certainly better written and more encyclopedic than Striver's version. However, it is quite Sunni in emphasis. I have rewritten it completely so that it is -- I hope -- more even-handed between Sunni and Shi'a accounts. I still have to add references. If anyone out there has a paper copy of Reza Aslan's book, I would appreciate a page number for the reference to the election. My copy is an e-book, and the pagination is completely different. Zora 23:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


It nice, it deleted some shia views that are importat, and also deleted the detail about his burial, but i can have that under the "Shia view". Why not include that his uncle beat him? Its certanly a merti to Uthman that he became a muslim even though that he became fysicly punished for it, and he souldent be denied credit for that.

--Striver 23:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


Zora, i need to ask you: Why did you delet what you did? Im sure that you know it was agains WP guidlines, so i would be intresting to hear that. I mean, you did not move it to the Shia view, you just erased it al together.

--Striver 00:10, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora, You mentioned that my contribution is highly contentious. I first thought that my input was deleted by someone else rather than the editors and that is why I reposted it again. Could you clarify what you found most polemic and I will be more than happy to discuss it.

Mfyuce 08:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)Mfyuce

Hi,


I think we must move the page to Uthman ibn Affan, because there is many Uthman or Osman in the history. How we gonna manage it.. For me, the best is to create a disambiguation page at Uthman, redirect Osman to Uthman. Anyone who searches the article, can get whoever Uthman it wants. For Example, it can be like that..

  • Uthman ibn Affan
  • Osman I
  • Gazi Osman Pasha
  • Ottomans
  • etc...

Take care...

[edit] polemic

Zora, You mentioned that my contribution is highly contentious. I first thought that my input was deleted by someone else rather than the editors and that is why I reposted it again. Could you clarify what you found most polemic and I will be more than happy to discuss it.

[edit] a little skepticism is in order

It is highly unlikely that Uthman would not have broken the siege if he could. Further, the account that he was sitting reading the Qur'an as he was slain is hagiography which should not be presented as fact.Timothy Usher 20:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muawiyyah assasinated Ali?

I agree that Muawiyyah might be reasonably suspected of having a hand in this - just as Ali probably had a hand in Uthman's death, as was alleged at the time - but this is usually attributed to the Kharajites, who supposedly were trying to assasinate Muawiyyah as well.Timothy Usher 21:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

you are correct that Ali's assassination is traditionally blamed on the Kharijites. I think that's what the sentence was trying to say; the phrasing was poor, that's all. —Charles P._(Mirv) 21:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, now I see. Duh. Thanks for clearing up the language.Timothy Usher 22:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] references

I just added some "citation needed" tags. There are hardly any references on this page. If anyone has sources, try to add them using footnotes. Cuñado - Talk 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of quotes

I removed some quotes that Striver added. They do not represent the state of serious academic scholarship at all. Margoliouth is an OLD source, and unfriendly to Islam. He was a Church of England divine, after all. The Soviet writer, B-whatever, wants to depict Uthman as an early capitalist, oppressing the poor so that he could live in luxury. The "Non-Muslim" section is also severely lop-sided, but I left the quote from Lewis. I'll try to find some other quotes to balance him out.

Quotes should be representative, not cherry-picked from obscure sources to support one's thesis (in this case, hatred of Uthman) and presented as neutral.

I also removed several "Prophet"s and PBUHs. Zora 17:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, ill try to re-arrange it so that only the factual part is on the main article, and the more opinionated ones go to views section. I would appreciate if you had done that, or just aired your concerns in the talk page, instead of removing information only for being in the wrong section. For example, you reverted several improvements such as the links to the migration to Medina article. --Striver 01:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Im sure that we all agree that all information needs to be there, the question is only were and how it is presented. --Striver 01:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to comlain about the user striver, he seems to be vandalising articles related with islam. - Imranal
Please do not remove information. If it is to much, propose a sub-section. If it is to quoty, change it to prose. If you believe it is giving the wrong impression, then complement it with the information you feel is missing. But do not remove information. --Striver 04:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

This article was rename, i am moving it back per Muhammad,Ali,Umar and Abu Bakr, a desicion taken by consensus long time agoe. If you still want to change this, check first to see if the consensus has changed. --Striver 05:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caliph

"third caliph is international, not just Sunni.". Iran is a country, and it does not agree. You dont want to know what they call him. And lets not talk about other countries... --Striver 00:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You need to look up the definition of consensus. International scholarly consensus lists Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman as the first 3 Caliphs. Some 80% of Muslims and a consensus of neutral international academics, scholars and historians list them as the first 3 Caliphs. Shia doctrine is mentioned in the inrto, that is more than enough. This has been covered again and again in most of the caliphate-related articles.--AladdinSE 19:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have never seen any consensus for your opinion, just you stating there is one. No way. He is NOT my caliph, and i say that as a Muslim, and there is no chance in the world that he is the caliph of ISLAM! No way. Those 80% are either Sunnis or don't know much about Shi'as, and we have already a practice of viewing Shi'a reservations as notable. --Striver 02:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about INTERNATIONAL ACADEMIC NON-ISLAMIC NEUTRAL SCHOLARLY CONSENSUS. Of course those 80% are Sunnis. They happen to be the vast majority of Muslims. If you open any hisotry book in the Western World, they list Ali as fourth Caliph of Islam. This has been covered again and again in the articles related to the Succession. And of course Shia reservations are notable, that's why I noted it in the intro. Please once and for all shed your emotional attitude in editing. --AladdinSE 07:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This Article is Full of Original Research

It looks like this article is written by a very biased Shia. It is full of negative POV and has very little matter. Why are 20th century historians quoted and references from early history books is not given? I see no credibility in this article Hassanfarooqi 19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the article has been rewritten by a Shi'a. I think if you went back a few months you might find a better article. I used to clash with Striver regularly, but I just can't edit 1000 articles on a daily basis, and Striver has had a free hand for a while. I removed those quotes a while back and he put them back in. They're grossly misrepresentative of the academic POV on Uthman -- it's discussed earlier in the talk page. Zora 19:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey, i dont own the article. What is the problem? Lets talk about it and i fix it. This article is not going to be as i want, but neither as you want. I can't add that Uthman bribed and stole money, but you cant remove all references that you don't like either. So lets talk, i want to talk about this. --Striver 20:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
For starters, the name of this section: What part of the article is OR? --Striver 20:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

We can remove references not supported by reliable sources. Striver, can't you stop viewing Wikipedia as some sort of crusade to publish religious doctrinal grievances and revisionist propaganda? --AladdinSE 07:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to expand the article, that is all. I do not see any other trying to do the same. Now, if my expansion has cause somebody to disagree with the material added, the correct thing to do is to talk about it and reach some agreement, not to unitarily just remove it with some generic reference to some policy. What is the problem, please be specific, so we can talk about it.--Striver 10:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Great, again are people removing content witout dialog. People, i here writing and talking, please answer instead of rv'ing. You know that i will rv mute removal of info, so start the dialog please. --Striver 00:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caliph of Islam

It is Sunni POV to write that he was the "Caliph of Islam". I have elaborated on this on the talk page of Abu Bakr. --Striver 10:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have replied on that Talk page. I have provided you with no less than 8 highly respected academic and journalistic references illustrating what the international historical consensus is regarding who was the first Caliph. You may not delete referenced material. As I have said time and again with these ridiculous revisionist crusades regarding Caliphate-related articles, just because the first 3 caliphs are listed as Caliphs, does not change that Shia Islam considers Ali as the first legitimate Caliph. But they still RULED before him (he even served in their administrations) and thus they are listed in all major histories as the first three Caliphs. Shia doctrine has been clearly denoted in all these articles. Now please stop.--AladdinSE 01:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'sunni scholar'

The 'sunni scholar' quoted is no Sunni scholar: he was a Soviet anti-religious propagandist.

The fantastic figures about Caliph 'Uthman's supposed wealth are Shi'ite fabrications, accepted uncritically by him in line with 'socialist' critique.

Sunni sources agree that 'Uthman's later life was as ascetic and frugal as that of 'Ali's.


...Rizwanullah Khan, lecturer, Karachi University.

Wikipedia is not an accurate source of information, never reference it :D 216.99.60.104 00:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Views section

I have deleted this, shia should not be commenting on people they dont follow this is an encyclopedia not a discussion i will keep deleting any further shia views becouse they are not relavent to the biography. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rami.b (talk • contribs) 11:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC).--Rami.b 11:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason based on Wikipedia policy that this section should be removed? If it's a religious objection, that isn't an appropriate reason to delete content from the article. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

They have no right to write his biography otherwise we may as well allow anyone who doesnt like anyone to say anything. Shia make up 5% of the muslim population there view can hardly be called mainstream or orthodox islam. would a christian like me to edit any christians pages simply becouse i dont agree or is the reason for an encyclopedia simply to inform rather than to propagate.--Rami.b 11:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, I don't understand your objection. Is there something in that section which is not appropriately referenced, or is not true? Anyone can edit any Wikipedia article; that's sort of the point of Wikipedia. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont think there should be a views section altogether why should people who make a point of cursing him have a say in his biography.--Rami.b 11:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

If some groups disagree about his significance, that's important enough to write about. When I read that section, it came across clearly that different people see this person differently- to leave that out would keep readers from knowing that there is disagreement on the matter, and the disagreement seems pretty significant. -FisherQueen (Talk) 17:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That is true for any person and besides the point, Shiaism is a sect in Islam not orthodox Islam they make up about 5% of the entire muslim population which barely rates as a minor difference of opinion among muslims. No one is trying to deny people voicing there opinion but since this is a biography and not a discussion forum it stands to reason that this structure is followed. Read the shia view section carefully and look at how is worded it reads more like a rebuttal than simple scholarly impartial ism.--Rami.b 23:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I'm new to the Wikipedia thing, so please bare with me. Why is there a Sunni and Non-Muslim section but no Shia section here? I thought each page showed each sects' point of view. And Jaffari is one of the recognized 5 schools of scholarly thoughts. So no reason it should be denied, if it's not denied in other historical people's biography views. Is this some sort of censorship in regards to certain pages? Different views exist as different scholars or critics do(even if it's one outspoken critic,he or she gets a credit). It is part of the scholarly debate. If views did not matter, then neither did the sections on Sunni and non-Muslims(but oddly both are left intact). Your argument is not compelling. I do not follow Buddha yet I know enough from reading history,experience,different groups views and anecdotal facts to comment on him which may reflect him in either positive or negative light. Shias comment on Uthman because they are affected by his historical role in Islam which goes for Sunni's as well. Sunni show positive,Shia show negative,non-Muslims show whatever. As a journalist you need to know why.If the wordings of the Shia section are not agreed,then it should reach a compromise...not a total censorship and suppression of that view. You can say the same thing about evolution having just one view, but there are different views. A view can be a rebuttal of what a scholar or critic sees as inaccurate information or falsehood. Consider Protestants deleting a section on Mormon's view. That's not right. Consider that the Shia sect is the second largest to the Sunni sect, and hence should be taken into account. Consider writing a page on Jesus and omitting the Jewish view out because they are smaller than the other two religions. I can't help but wonder if there is a bias on the user's part who is deleting,censoring and suppressing this section. And make no mistake, not showing or saying something, is censorship. Encyclopedias consider all facts, and there is factual evidence that may be disputed nevertheless has strong support and must let the readers decide. P.S. I'll be happy to take advice from anyone on how to contribute. If I made any mistakes on my first post, I'm sorry and please let me know.Thanks. --Bigsaf 22:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Rami, you are deleting it of the wrong reasons. Of course the "view" should not be deleted. You are only making the article inferior if you keep deleting the different views. Please put it back on. The shias are not 5% but 10-15% and growing, so their view should be in this article too, since shias disagree a lot with sunnis regarding Uthman. 85.82.233.73 23:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "His Character" and "Among `Uthman’s sayings"

I have added the above two sections as well as added some material in the death section.--Rami.b 23:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Article

Asalamualikum.
i am writing a new and more comprehensive article of Caliph Uthman, inshallah will be here with in a week.... having following headings:

1 Biography
 2 Early life
2.1 Conversion to Islam
2.2 Migration to Abyssinia
2.3 Migration to Medina
2.4 Life in Madinah
2.5 Treaty of Hudaibiyah
2.6 Prophet Mohammad's last years
3 Caliph Abu Bakr's era (632–634)
4 Caliph Umar's Era (634–644)
5 Election of Uthman
6 Reign as a Caliph (644–656)
7 Reforms of Uthman's era
7.1 Economic reforms
7.2 Public work
7.3 Administration
7.4 Qur'an
8 Military expansion
9 Agitation Against Uthman
9.1 Background
9.1.1 Seditionist movement
9.1.2 Uthman's measures
9.1.3 Uthman's emissaries to the provinces
9.1.4 Uthman's further measures
9.1.5 Agitation in Madinah
10 Armed revolt against Uthman
10.1 Rioters in Madinah
10.2 Siege of Uthman
11 Death
11.1 The funeral
11.2 The burial
12 Legacy
13 Family of Uthman
13.1 Sunni view of Uthman
13.2 Non-Muslims
14 References
15 External links
16 See also


surely will need help for making article neutral and for spelling/grammer/and style stuff from you guys. Mohammad Adil 20:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi pal, I just had a look at your work on Uthman and need to say that there are many deliberate omissions of the fact that his nepotism and appointing his relatives (whom a couple of them were declared apostates by the prophet himself). In addiction to the fact that later on, his kin were the ones who solely benefited from his reign. All that was underlying reason for many companions to first protest and then raise in revolt against him, and rather than doing that, a fanciful picture of Uthman reign is depicted, and hadn’t for “conspiracy of Abd Allah b. Sa’ba” Uthman’s rule would have been an-uneventful one .

I’m not sure why you choose to rely on the fictional rule of Abd Allah b. Saba’a in the murder of Uthman, which has been widely discredited by modern Muslim and non-Muslim scholars alike and repressing the fact that A’ashia, Amr b. Al-As, Talha and Zubair were among those who ignited against Uthman which ended in his assassination. Why don’t you read the standard work in the academia and here in the Wikipedia for this era, The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung, rather than relying on some fictional accounts and the conspiracy theories of Sayf b. Umar Al Tamimi.

I will check the rest of the article with respect to Uthman life pre to his caliphate period and get back on that soon.

Cheers, --Suhrawardi 20:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC) Asalamualikum. thanks for comments, i needed it. i am not sure about abdullah ibn saba's stuff that wather he is fictional (as claimed by shia) or real as mention in historical sources. and one thing more, as far as i know ONLY shia claim that "abdullah ibn saba" was a fiction made by historians..... i guess it was 1st claimed by egyptian writer taha hussain in his book recently published in past decade...... still i am unable to understand what was the real problem with uthman's governers.. i mean i have found shia sources saying that they were courpt, and in the same way have find muslim sources justifying the claims over them. the most amazing thing i have come across is that uthman appointed only 4 ummayed governers him self, other were appointed by Caliph umar, he appointed abdullah ibn saad, not uthman. and kore over there were 12 provinces and only 4 were governed by his kinsmen. though those provinces were of great importance.As far me, i agree with the theory of those historians who says that uthman's governers were fine and there was political dis-balance in the state due to which it all happned, and that political disbalance originated due to lack of any perticular office to handle that sudden political dilema, and it happned due to the the fact that muslims became financially strong in uthman's reign and few of them had nothing to do ......... any ways whats i suggest is that in the portion of agitation against uthman, we should make two section under each sub-heading one giving shia views and other with sunni views.,
A’ashia,.......? who is he ???? as far as your statement that Amr b. Al-As, Talha and Zubair were beside the agitaion against uthman, then dude thats totally wrong in which world you live ????lolzzz for amr ibn al-aas its ture he was behind it and was an active member, because of his dispossal from the post of governer of egypt. and by the way he was also uthman's relative, he was his brother-in-law. Talha and Zubair were not involved, that can be proved simply from historical facts. may be you are reffering to Marwan ibn hakam's statement in battle of jamal when he said kill talha i saw him uprising the rebels to kill uthman ...lolzzz thats funny even a kid can understand the conspiracy behind it lolzz, didn't marwan ibn hakam remmembered it that talha was one involved in killing of uthman when Talha, Zubair, Abdullah ibn Zubair and other campanions after the capture of busra went in streets to investigate and to search the killers of uthman, and they killed 4000 suspected killers of uthman or those who were involved in agitation against him ??????? whats the answer that marwan forgotted it that time ????lolzzz thats funny. i also came the narration saying that Umm al momenin Ayesha said to rebels .... kill this old fool man ...lolzz thats a rear statement, but i also came across the narration in which she came to uthman's palace during seige to provide him food and water, and thats more acurate in favour of the wive of prophet. Mohammad Adil 12:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)



Good morning pal, It seems to me that you have misread and at time not even reading the numerous history references and the traditionalist works of great Sunni scholars. In addition to the works of many modern Sunni scholars.

Abd Allah b. Saba

It was truly ironic to state with all the confidence in the world that “as far as i know ONLY shia claim that "abdullah ibn saba" was a fiction made by historians”. I’m not sure how the following would fall into the quoted self-assertion. The narrator of the supposed involvement of Abd Allah b. Saba in the rebellion against Uthman is Sayf b. Umar Al Tamimi, whom the prominent SUNNI traditionalists like Ibn Hajar Al Askalani, Ibn Adi, Imam al Hakim, Ibn Nomair, Al Barakani, Al Dar Khotni, Ibn Jawzi, Ibn Adb Rab, Al Albani, and al-Thahabi, denounced the narrations of Sayf b Umar on the grounds of being “a liar, a fabricator of hadith and was accused of blasphemy”

Wilferd Madelung, the eminent historian states on the sources for the crisis of the caliphate of Uthman that:

“ Al-Tabari’s other main source, Sayf b. Umar’s account, is late Kufan Uthmanid and anti-Shi’ite concoction without source value for the events. The Isnads are largely factitious. The contents and tendentiousness of his account have been briefly analysed by Wellhaausen(Skizzen, VI, pp 120-1, 124-5,133-5) ”

(The Succession to Muhammad p 374, Cambridge University Press, 1997)

While M.G.S. Hodgson explains further that

“ It is not clear what historical person or persons lay behind this figure. Al-Tabari’s source, Sayf b.Umar, is the chief authority for his political activity against Uthman. Al-Dhahabi notes a general condemnation of Sayf as a traditionist (quoted by Friedlaender, ZA, 1909, 297), a condemnation supported on other grounds by Wellhausen (Skizzen und Vorarbeiten, vi, 6); and surer sources seem to exclude Ibn Saba" from any major role there. ”

(Abd Allah b. Saba in Encyclopaedia of Islam CD-ROM Edition v. 1.0 © 1999 Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, The Netherlands)


Also why don’t you check the works of

  • Sunni Saudi historian Hassan b Farhan al-Maliki’s In Salvaging the Islamic History نحو انقاذ التاريخ الاسلامي in which he repudiates those Wahhabis who still stick to Ibn Saba’s fictional role in the upheaval. And his second book,Companions and Companionshipالصحبة و الصحابة
  • Sunni scholar of Al Ahzhar Univeristy, Shaikh Mahmmud Abu Rayah’s Lights on Muhammadian Sunnaاضواء على السنة المحمدية
  • Renowned professor of Arabic literature of Ain Sham University of Cairo Hamid Hanafi Dawad in two works, A glances into the celebrated booksنظرات الى الكتب الخالدة and With Ahmad Amin مع احمد امين.
  • Tyrant الطاغية by the Sunni writer Imam Abd Al Fatah Imam who is director of the Philosophy Department in Kuwait University ,
  • Egyptian Sunni Islamist Muhammad Amarah’s chapter The social changes in the reign of Uthman, in Social thought of Ali b. Abi Talib.الفكر الاجتماع عند علي بن أبي طالب
  • The secular Syrian Sunni author Nabil Fayad’s The day the Camel degenerated from Sakifah)

يوم انحدر الجمل من السقيفة

To name but a few of the works of modern revisionist Sunni scholars.


My recommendation for you pal, is rather than being truly self-assertive without being accustomed to the basic methodological principles of Islamic history in which the chain of narrators plays a fundamental role, and speaking of “historical facts” which at times they sound more like histrionics, you need to go on and study what in Arabic they call ilm Al Rijal(which is the assessment of narrators of hadiths and historical reports) in order to learn about who is saying what and how reliable the narrator is in the eyes of the classical Sunni traditionalists. I know that this does not seem an easy task, but this is the very magnitude and prerequisite of Islamic historiography. If you want we can divide the article into Sunni and Shiite view, that is fine with me. As the Shiite section will be complemented with the views of the most renowned SUNNI traditionalists, eminent Western scholars as well as contemporary well-known Sunni authors from a wide range of spectrum.


Uthman’s reign and its discontent.

As for the reason of the discontent of many prominent Companions INCLUDING A’isha and Talha, I restore to the work of the Wilferd Madelung whose book The Succession to Muhammad is considered a standard reference both in the academia and here in Wikipedia,( note his mastery of both the historical references and detailed critical assessment of chain of narrators for each report based on Sunni references)

And I will start from the question that bewildered you, namely what was wrong with Uthman, Madelung explains that:

“ His nepotism was apparent from the beginning. It did not, however, provoke serious opposition during the first half of his reign. He was able to keep the prominent Companions and Quraysh well disposed by his general leniency.

The prominent Companions of the Shura more and more lost their influence over him. At the same time his arrogant mistreatment of several earliest Companions. Of lowly origin, Abu Dharr al-Ghiffari, Abd Allah b. Mas’ud and Ammar b. Yasir, provoked outrage among the pious, as well as among their tribes and the clans of Quraysh to whom they were affiliated and who were liable for their protection

 ”

(The Succession to Muhammad pp 87-88)

As for his role and the governors he appointed, Madelung observes that:

“ Uthman thus deemed it within his right to dispose freely of the powers and riches of the caliphate at his own discretion and deeply resented any criticism or interference in his conduct by anyone.

In reality Uthman’s policy of establishing members of his clan as governors throughout the empire was fully evident even during the early years of his reign. Five year after his accession, all the major governorships were thus solidly in the hands of the caliph’s relatives When al-Walid b.Uqba had to be deposed because of misconduct in the year 30/650-1, Uthman replaced him with another Umayyad Sa’id b. al-As b. Abi Uhayda.

 ”

(The Succession to Muhammad pp 81, 86-87)

On some of those companions who early showed their oppositions to his conduct, Madelung states that:

“ As Uthman’s kin, in particular, Marwan, gained more and more control over his political conduct, the Early Companions of the electoral council, seeing their influence eroded, turned against him. They were still widely recognized as the guardians of the principles of Islam, the informal leaders of the Muslim community collectively responsible for its right guidance. Now each one of them, in varying degrees, withdrew his support from the caliph whom they had elected. Most significant was the defection of Abd al-Rahman b.Awf, the king-maker and former brother-in-law of Uthman. Since he died in 32/652-3, three years before the murder, it is evident that the deep disaffection had reached dangerous levels long before the actual crisis.

According to a report by his grandson Sa’d b. Ibrahim, Abd al Rahman was deeply upset about the death of Abu Dharr in exile at al-Rabadha, which occurred not long before his own death. He defended himself against a charge by Ali that he bore responsibility for Uthman’s conduct, stating that the latter had broken his commitments (made at the time of his election) to him, and offered to wield his own sword with Ali (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 57) Before his death he expressed a wish that Uthman should not pray over him, and Al-Zubayr or Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas led the funeral prayer(Ibid) (The Succession to Muhammad pp 92-93)

Another prominent Zuhrite who fell out with Uthman much earlier was Abd Allah b. Arqm b. Abd Yaghuth, a further grandson of Muhammad’s uncle, and former secretary of the prophet. Umar had put him in charge of the public treasury (bayt al-mal) and thought highly of him. According to Hafsa, her father had even thought of appointing him his successor (Ibn Hajar, IV, pp 32-33) Under Uthman he continued in his office until Abd Allah b. Khalid b. Asid, the caliph’s newphew and brother-in-law, arrived from Mekka with a group of men volunteering to fight for the faith(ghuzatan0. Uthman ordered that Abd Allah be given 300, 000 dirhams and each of the other men 100,000 and sent on a draft on the public treasury to Ibn Araqm. The latter found the amount excessive and turned the draft. When the caliph reprimanded him, calling him, “treasurer for us”, he answered that he had considered himself treasurer for the Muslims and resigned, suspending the treasury keys on the pulpit. Uthman sent Zayd. B Thabit to him with a present of 300, 000 but he refused to accept it (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 58-59, Ibn Abi Hadid, Sharh, III, p 36 )

 ”

( The Succession to Muhammad pp93-94)

Talha

Now coming to the really juicy part, which seems to go in contradiction of your fanciful world of great Companions, on Talha, Madelung articulates that:

“ Talha soon became a sharp critic of Uthman’s conducts and is being described as personally reaproaching the caliph on various occasions(Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 42, 44) According to Khalid, client of Uthman’s son Aban, he intervened when Marwan used the name of the caliph to gain personal advantage on the market in buying date pits as fodder to his camel. When Uthman apologized that he had not ordered this, Talha blamed him even more, pointing to the stern scrupulosity if Umar on a similar occasion ( Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 29)

Talha wrote letters to the provinces inciting revolt and made a common cause with the Egyptians rebels during the siege of Uthman’s palace. When he came to Basra calling for revenge for the blood of Uthman, Abd Allah b. Hakim al-Tamimi of Mujashi showed him his earlier letter to them, and he acknowledged having written them (Baladhuri, Ansab, II, p 229-230) Abd Allah b. Sa’d b. Abi Sarh commented that, in spite of the caliph’s generosity towards him, Talha was the one toughest against him during the siege (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 20).

 ”
“ This was equally the impression of later historians such as Abu Mikhnaf as well as Ibn Sirin (d. 110/728) and Awf al-A’rabi representing Kufan Shiite and Basran Uthmanid tradition respectively (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 71,81: Ibn Shabba, Ta’rikh Al-Madna, p 1169. Ibn Sirin said specifically that no one among the Companions of the prophet was more severe against Uthman than Talha) (The Succession to Muhammad pp 98-99)

Abu Mikhnaf reported that it was Talha who prevented the delivery of drinking water to the besieged caliph(Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 71. This is indirectly confirmed by the report of Abd al-Rahman b. al-Aswad b. Abd Yaghuth (Tabari, I, p 2979) Looking down from his balcony Uthman greeted a group of the rebels among whom he saw Talha. As they failed to return the greeting, he addressed him: ‘Talha, I did not think I would live to see the day when I should greet you and you do not return the greeting(Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 76)

According to a report by the Kufan Uthmanid Qays b. Abi Hazim al-bajali, a man who visited Talha during the siege in order to ask him to prevent the death of Uthman was told by him : ‘No, by god, not until the Banu Umayya surrender the right on their own accord (Ibn Asakir, Uthman, p 407. Qays b. Abi Hazim al-Bajali al-Ahmasi(d. 84/703) was known to put Uthman above Ali. Kufan traditionalists inclined to Shi’ism therefore shunned him(Ibn Hajar, Tahdhib, VIII, pp 386-7)

The Medinan Companion and Qur’an collector Mujammi b. Jariya al-Awsi, evidently one of the few Medinan supporters of Uthman, narrated that he passed by Talha, who asked him mockingly what his master was doing. When Mujammi replied: ‘I suspect that you <pl.> shall kill him’, Talha commented: ‘ if he should be killed, he is neither an angel brought close <to God> nor a prophet sent <by Him> (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 76)

The Mukhzumite Companion Abd Allah b. Ayyash b. Abi Rabi’a reported that he visited Uthman during the siege and the caliph let him listen to the talk of those outside the door. He heard them debating whether they should attack or wait for the caliph to retract. Then Talha arrived and asked for Ibn Udays, the chief of the Egyptian rebels. He whispered something to Ibn Udays, who then ordered his companions not to let anyone enter or leave the palace. Uthman told Ibn Ayyash that it was Talha who gave this order and he prayed that God protect him from Talha and grant that Talha’s blood be spilled. Talha, he affirmed, had committed illicit offence against him, and he quoted the Prophet’s hadith that the shedding of a Muslim blood was illicit except for apostasy, adultery and manslaughter. Ibn Ayyash wanted to depart, but he was prevented by the rebels until Muhammad b. Abi Bakr passed by and ordered that he be allowed to leave (Tabari, I, p 3000)

 ”

((The Succession to Muhammad pp 98-99)

“ Talha had no motive for hating Uthamn, by whom he was treated with particular generosity, and acted out of personal ambition. He must have been confident that he would become his successor. Uthman presumably alluded to him in his message to the Mekka pilgrims conveyed by Ibn al-Abbas in stating that ‘some were seeking to take their right by unrightful means for whom my life has lasted excessively. Their hope for the reign<imra> has been delayed too long for them, so they have sought to hasten fate (Tabari, I, p 3034 The Uthmanid Abd al-Rahman b. Abi Layla reported that Talha took over the command of the Egyptian during the siege of the palace. Muhammad b. Abi Bakr was with them but when he left them in the evenings he, Ali, and Ammar assured the people that the Egyptian rebels were acting under the order of Ali(ibn Shabba, T’arikh al-Madina, p1171) Ali is described in other Uthmanid accounts as greatly concerned that Talha was seizing control (see, for instance, ibid, pp 1197-9)

It was Abu Bakr’s daughter A’isha who stood behind the ambitions of her kinsman Talha.

 ”

(The Succession to Muhammad p100)

A’isha

“ She was probably the first one to speak out against Uthman at the mosque. As a widow of Muhammad and the daughter of the founder of the caliphate she was in the best position to do so. When the early Companion Abd Allah b.Mas’ud, accused by al-Walid b. Uqba of fomenting trouble in Kufa, was deported to Medina and Uthman abused him from the pulpit, A’isha shouted :’Uthman, do you say this to the Companion of the Messenger of God? (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 36) Shortly afterwards four witnesses arrived from Kufa to charge al-Walid with drunkenness. When Uthman threatened them, they complained to A’isha, who exclaimed: ‘Uthman has obstructed the Qur’anic legal punishments (hudud and threatened witnesses(Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 34) According to the account of al-Zuhri, Uthman heard the commotion in A’sha room and angrily commented: ‘Can the rebels and scoundrels of the people of Iraq find no other refuge than the home of A’sha?’ Hearing this, she raised one of Muhammad’s sandals and shouted at him: ‘You have forsaken the Sunna of the Messanger of God, the owner of this sandal.’ The people heard of the incident and filled the mosque, where they quarreled about the propriety of the interference of A’sha, as a woman, in the dispute. A group of Companions went to see Uthman, and he was forced to depose his brother(Aghani,IV, p 180-1)

In the case of Ammar b. Yasir, A’sha, in solidarity with Umm Salama, created a similar scene in the mosque. She brought out a hair, a garment and a sandal of the prophet and called out: ‘How quickly have you <pl.> abandoned the Sunna of your prophet when his hair, his dress, and his sandal have not yet decayed.’ Uthman was left speechless and rage, while the crowd, egged on by Amr b. Al-As, thrust into turmoil and exclamation of bewilderment((Baladhuri, Ansab, V, pp 48-49, 88-9 The report goes back to al-Zuhri)

 ”
“ A’isha most likely also wrote letters to the provinces stirring up rebellion, although, after the murder of Uthman, she denied it. The letters were written in the name of the Mothers of the Faithful collectively, but was generally assumed at the time that she was behind them.

Masruq b. al-Ajda al-Hamdani, a prominent disciple of Ibn Mas’ud, narrated that A’isha chided the people for slaughtering Uthman like a rat. Masruq told her: ‘This is your work <sg.> wrote to the people ordering them to march against him.’ She denied that she had ever written a line. The Kufan traditionist al-A’mash commented that the letters were therefore generally held to have been written in her name (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 103, Khalifa, Ta’rikh, ed. Akram Diya alUmari(Damascus, 1977), p 176. After the murder of Uthman, Masruq reproached al-Ashtar and Ammar for having killed a man who fasted and prayed constantly. The Uthmanid Kufan al-Sha’bi praised him saying that the women of Hamadan had not given birth to the like of Masruq(Ibn Asakir, Uthman, pp 502-3) Masruq was know to have access to A’isha and transmitted hadith from her)

 ”

(The Succession to Muhammad pp 100-1 )

“ A’isha’s increasing hostility towards Uthman was certainly not solely personally motivated. As the revered Mother of the Faithful and the daughter of the first caliph she also felt a responsibility for guarding the basic principles of the caliphate founded by her father. She could see that under Uthman the caliphate of Quraysh was quickly being turned into a hereditary kingship for the benefit of the Umayyad house. (The Succession to Muhammad p 102)

During the final siege, A’isha decided to leave, together with Umm Salama, for pilgrimage. In hope that her present in Medina might hold the rebels from violence, Uthman sent Marwan and another cousin, Abd al-Rahman b. Attab. b. Asid (according to another version of Ibn Sa’d (Tabaqat, V, p 25), Zayd b. Thabit, treasurer and royalist of Uthman, was sent along with them. Ibn Abi Hadid(Sharh, III, p 7) quotes a report from al-Waqidi’s Kitab al-Dar according to which Marwan asked Zayd b. Thabit to accompany him. A’isha discretied Zayd by enumerating all the gifts of land and money he had received from Uthman, and he said no word in return) to persuade her to stay for the sake of his safety. Having completed her preparations for the trip, she rejected all entreaties. When Marwan finally suggested, with a sarcastic poetical quote, that she was running away after having set the country ablaze, she told him angrily that she wished his man was one of her travel sacks so she could take it along and cast him into the sea (Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 75. For various versions of the incident and Ai’sha’s words see Abbot, Aisha, p 124)

As she reached al-Sulsul, Abd Allah b. Abbas, sent by the caliph to deliver his message caught up with her. Worried about the impact it might make on the assembled pigrims, she told him according to Abd Allah’s own report: ‘Ibn Abbas, I beseech you by God, for you are endowed with an agile tongue, that you turn <the people> away from this man and stir up their misgivings. For their sights have become clear and acute, the light signals have been raised for them, and they have streamed together from all countries for a momentous matter. I have seen Talha b.Ubayd Allah take possession of the keys of the treasure houses and storerooms. If he takes over the rule, he will follow the conduct of his cousin Abu Bakr’ Abd Allah suggested: ‘My mother, if anything should happen to the man, the people would seek refuge only with our fellow.’ Aisha drew back:’leave this, I do not wish to engage with you in a boasting match or dispute. (Tabari, I, p 3040) When the news of Uthman’s miserable end, but not yet of Ali’s succession arrived in Mekka, she ordered her pavilision to be pitched in the Sanctuary and announced: ‘I believe that Uthman will bring ill luck upon his people<the Umayyads> just as Abu Sufyan brought ill luck on his people on the day of Badr(Baladhuri, Ansab, V, p 91) Talha, she fancied, would now put the clock back to the time of the prophet.( The Succession to Muhammad pp 102-3)

 ”

So much for delivering water to the besieged Uthman,ha???


Having said that I would conclude with what Wilferd Madelung and Bernard Lewis had to say about Uthman’s reign the former draws the following conclusion

“ The cancer in the body of the caliphate which he had nurtured and rapacious kin destroyed him. It was to continue to grow and to sweep away Umar’s caliphate of Islamic meritocracy. Uthman’s successor Mu’awiya turned it, as well-know prophecy ascribed to Muhammad, into traditional despotic kingship ”

(The Succession to Muhammad p 140)

While the latter argues that:

“ Uthman, like Mu'awiya, was a member of the leading Meccan family of Ummaya and was indeed the sole representative of the Meccan patricians among the early companions of Muhammad with sufficient prestige to rank as a candidate. His election was at once their victory and their opportunity. That opportunity was not neglected. Uthman soon fell under the influence of the dominant Meccan families and one after another of the high posts of the Empire went to members of those families.

The weakness and nepotism of Uthman brought to a head the resentment which had for some time been stirring obscurely among the Arab warriors. The Muslim tradition attribute the breakdown which occurred during his reign to the personal defects of Uthman. But the causes lie far deeper and the guilt of Uthman lay in his failure to recognize, control or remedy them

 ”

(The Arabs in History, p 59)

Cheers, --Suhrawardi 06:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A question

while writing an article on Uthman on military expansion section i got stuck on a point,
at its peak wather uthman's empire was upto tunisia(north africa) in west ( as famous usually) or it was upto the moroco in north africa and Andulusia (spain) ????
i found it in tabari and ibn aksir that uthman's empire was upto moroco when king george of north africa was killied in battle of subetila by abdullah ibn zubair, the whole of north africa submitted to muslims and muslims made it "vessale state". King george's state's frontiers were from tunisia to moroco, according to above mention sources Uthman send his two generals via sea to spain to conqured it and they manage to conqured coastal areas of andulisia, uthman in his letter to them wrote that "constantino pole will be conqured from the side of land so march farward" but he died before the expedition. now i ask opinion of you guys that how far his empire reached in west to tunisia or to spain ???? as far as i know tabari and ibn aksir are trusted sources and authentic too. Mohammad Adil 20:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The new article is here !

i have pasted here my new article, it need correction in spelling, grammer, and style etc. also one should try to make it more neutral.

Mohammad Adil 20:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amirul Mu'mineen?

i really dont think the article starts out well by calling him by that title. How was he the commader of believers? Muhammad Mahdi Karim 08:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


    • Well, yes he was amir ul momenin perhaps the last amir ul momenin ... as he was the last caliph to enjoy the muslim unity, it was his official title, and its no mater if after hundreds of years of his death shias deny his being amir ul momenin... its here the matter of belives ok, and the title was official, so his name must be writen along with thew title.

Mohammad Adil 17:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whats going on with the info-box of the article ???

The size now, is i think ideal, in most of the articles with info box i found it of this size. Mohammad Adil 17:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quran and Shia

Some Shia accuse Uthmān of removing some part in the Quran that talk about Ali. I think it should be mention in the section about the Quran in this Article.87.69.77.82 11:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes it should be added but it would be more acurate to add it in the section of "Shia view" as its a purely shia belive.

Mohammad Adil 14:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Muslim Scholars missing

Hi there. There's been great detail added about Uthman which is great from the last time I saw the article months ago. However there were at least 3-4 different Non-Muslim Scholars quotations in the 'Non-Muslim Scholars' section. There is only one now. Who deleted them and why? We need all the outside academic recognition about the Caliphs as we can. Bigsaf (talk) 23:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigsaf (talk • contribs) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)