Talk:Ute tribe

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View comments (edit) I have added pictures, text, and cultural info. I have added photos of rare museum quality objects from the Ute culture to the article --Waya sahoni (10 March 06) Quite a good article now, but is in serious need of more references (especially print references), and citations within the text. The pictures are great, but there's so many of them that it's messing with the formatting of the article and distracting from the text, so I suggest that several be removed. So things aren't quite so cluttered-looking. --Miskwito 22:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This article or section includes a list of references or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks in-text citations. You can improve this article by introducing more precise citations.

monkey dick icity has been observed by the greeks, who noticed that a heated piece of quartz attracts ashes.

2) Triboluminescence is the physics effect that explains the light emitted by Utes rattles filled with quartz crystals rather than piezoelectricity. I changed the explaination in my french translation of the article[1]. Charele 14:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Charles@Hirlimann.net]]

Do you mean pyroelectricity? — Omegatron 04:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Triboluminescence is caused by electrical discharges from breaking crystal bonds, or cracks in the crystal.
• Piezoelectric flashes are caused by electrical discharges from deformation of the crystal and the production of large voltages, without breaking anything.

I know quartz is piezoelectric. I don't know if it also produces triboelectric flashes. I don't know which is causing the effect in this case, if not both, but people continue to change it without providing any references. Please provide an (authoritative) reference for the cause of the effect before changing it again. — Omegatron 22:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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Moved from User:Deglr6328:

Why do you think the quartz rattles are triboluminescence? — Omegatron 22:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Cuz its light created by charge asymmetry separation upon crystal fracture. I suppose VEEERY strictly speaking its "fractoluminescence" but nearly no one ever uses that term. Some materials are only piezoelectric, some are only triboluminescent, some are both and many are neither. [2] [3].--Deglr6328 22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

And you were there to witness the crystals fracturing? Electrical discharges can be created by deforming piezoelectric materials without fracturing them, too. Talk:Ute_Tribe#Comment on piezoelectricity — Omegatron 08:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

wha? I don't know what you mean. Triboluminescence of SiO2 crystal fracture is well well known. you can buy a little kit from edmund scientific for like 5 bucks or something that includes a pair of quartz rocks that emit lots of light when rubbed against eachother. tribo=rubbing luminescence=light emitting. My first refrence link above discusses in detail the spectra and mechanisms of triboluminescence in crystalline quartz. --Deglr6328 09:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I had one of those as a kid. It was described as a piezoelectric effect. [4] [5] [6] [7] — Omegatron 16:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I really don't know what else I can say. There are several peer reviewed sources attributing the effect specifically to triboluminescence...here's some more [8] [9]. MONKEY I think the fact that silica exhibits both a piezoelectric effect and triboluminescence accounts for the common public confusion between the phenomena especially because the term triboluminescence is not very well known.--Deglr6328 07:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

After doing some more reading, it seems that several different distinct effects are involved in any kind of mechanoluminescence, some of which are caused by cracks and some that aren't. There's luminescence from piezoelectric nitrogen discharge, from elastic deformation, plastic deformation, blackbody radiation from heat at crack edges, chemical reaction DICK and oxidation at new crack surfaces, and others? The word "triboluminescence" is used to mean a few different things, apparently.

Even one of your references says that that luminescence can be caused by piezoelectric discharge through nitrogen, which can in turn induce photoluminescence of the quartz. This is the dominant mechanism in crushing of quartz according to Triboluminescence of glasses and quartz. In Piezoluminescence from a ferroelectric polymer and quartz, they short out the surfaces of the quartz to prevent piezoelectric nitrogen discharges from affecting their measurements of luminescence caused only by elastic deformation.

I'm just going to change it to say "mechanoluminescence".  :-) — Omegatron 02:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with Pah-vant

I am working on the Mountain Meadows massacre article and have run across a reference to a tribal (or band) name of Pah-vant in the southwestern Utah boder area living on or near Corn Creek. They probably lived in present day Nevada as well. It appears several times in Senate Executive Document 42 of the 36th United States Congress in response to Senate requests for all the official documents relating to the Mountain Meadows massacre. Specifically on page 76 where Jacob Forney (Superintendent for Indian Affairs in Utah Territory in 1859) says:

And after strict inquiry I cannot learn that even one Pah-vant Indian was present at the massacre.

Is anyone familiar with this name and what it corresponds to as far as tribal affiliations? Is it a band of Ute? Thanks for any help. --Robbie Giles 13:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)