Talk:Ustaše

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Contents

[edit] Photo

Photos need to be deleted. Why ? Wikipedia is having articles about 7 extermination camps (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chełmno, Bełżec, Majdanek, Sobibór, Treblinka , Jasenovac) , SS-Totenkopfverbände (SS extermination camps gards) and Ustaša. Because only articles about Croatian terror organization (Ustaša) and Independent State of Croatia extermination camps (Jasenovac) are having photos of killing this is clear evidence of Croatophobia. All camps need to have similar photos or nobody. Using this photos for crimes of only 1 side is clear POV and against rules of wiki. Rjecina 02:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Please point to the specific Wikipedia rule that says if one article has no photos, than an article about a similar topic should also have no photos. I don't think such a policy exists.Spylab 13:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The photos belong. THF 14:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You're being oversensitive Rjecina. If we go down your route we would have to start looking at whether an article about creationism or intelligent design has as many characters as an article about evolution. That would be an absurd way to measure knowledge. Instead we should just try to make each article as comprehensive as possible. Where one article has more info than another the aim should be to improve the one that has less info, not discard info from the one that has more. Kirker 15:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have stoped to worry about that and started to answer. For begining wiki is now having 2 Chetniks foto (Image:Chetniks with German soldiers.jpg, Meeting between German, Chetniks and Ustaša commander.jpg). After that I will upload from Holocaust museum foto from other extermination camps and put them in articles. For that nobody can say anything because if this is not allowed then we speak about double standards. In begining I have been writing on wiki about Roman Empire for which I have good enough knowledge. Only after looking Portal Croatia (this question is solved) and seeing what have Serbs users done I have started to look Croatian articles. It has been surprise for me to see how much great number of Serbian user hate Croatia and Croats and how they create new myths how parts of Croatia are Serbian land (supporters of Greater Serbia ??). Example of that is article Serbs of Croatia because in that Serbian king are ruling Slavonia between XIII and XVI century (they have never ruled Slavonia). This myths are dangerous and in my thinking it will be better if next generations do not learn about that. All in all it is funny to see how number of Serbian users support like truth Serbian wartime propaganda and delete many times words of sources without question like Einstein.Rjecina 04:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Serbs of Croatia, eh? I'll look into those "Kingdom of Srijem" claims... BTW, Rjecina, if you desire any help in equating the Ustaše and the Chetniks, feel free to point out any articles where you find them to be glorified and/or excused for their crimes, I would be happy to help. DIREKTOR 05:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Nazism instead of Thompson

The introductory paragraph included a sentence about the singer Thompson singing WWII Ustaše songs. I assume the editor didn't know we have an entire article about Neo-Nazism in Croatia. So, instead of singling out a particular case, I added a sentence about the Croatian Neo-Nazism in general and its relation to the Ustaše, including a reference to that article. Since Neo-Nazism in Croatia didn't have the Thompson references, I moved them over there. --Zmaj 08:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, I removed the passage which attributed the 1990s resurgence of support for the Ustaše to "religious hatred". The causes of that resurgence were much more complex than that, and included the misplaced identification with a past state which had been "independent" only in name; the hatred against rebel Serbs in Croatia; the hatred against Roma; the perception of the Nazi as "cool" (nice uniform, dude) etc. They are explained in Neo-Nazism in Croatia, so it would be unjustified to try to elaborate them in this article. --Zmaj 09:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caption for flag image

I wonder if the caption should be more precise? This was not the flag of Croatia but of the so-called Independent State of Croatia, which had borders significantly different from anything known as Croatia before or since and which has not been recognised as a legitimate predecessor state by present-day Croatia. Kirker 13:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I will change the caption. If anyone has any objections post them here before reverting, please. DIREKTOR 13:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prince Franjo Posedarski soldiers

Can someone please provide more detail on where this is coming from? I would like to request a quotion from the source that states this, or please provide an alternate source someone can verify. Thanks. // laughing man 23:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

"a quotion from the source"

Ustaša sposobnih za oružje bilo je na obje strane Velebita mnogo tisuća a na čelu im vojvode Stojan Janković i Ilija Smiljanić, knez Franjo Posedarski i Zadranin Šimun Bartolac.

word for word translation,

Ustaša capable of arms was on both sides Velebit severel thousends heding them commanders Stojan Janković and Ilija Smiljanić, prince Franjo Posedarski and Zadranin Šimun Bartolac.

Radoslav Lopašić - DVA HRVATSKA JUNAKA: Marko Mesić i Luka Ibrišimović (Zagreb 1888) p 35 line 33-34 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brkic (talk • contribs) 07:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Radoslav Lopašić[1] Radoslav Lopašić[2] Radoslav Lopašić[3] RADOSLAV LOPAŠIĆ MONUMENT [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brkic (talk • contribs) 08:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Annoyed

Its a shame...reading all these posts...seriously the only people reading this article is going to be either a serb or a croat. Both sides have their views...keep it to yourselves please, and only put credible and unbiased information about the Ustase in this article. p.s. Ustase did commit genocide...but lets put it into perspective...so have the serbs...and if we keep arguing about this it will be commited by both sides again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Postpenultimate (talk • contribs) 02:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Edit to annoyed comment by JEW: You can be annoyed as you wish, the Serbs did not commit any such genocide in the WW II, and you forgot the JEWS, they would be also interested in Jasenovac death caps. We will never forgot Ustashe/Croat regime in WWII. Peace to earth...

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.171.115 (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This historic fact is not allowed on the main pages of http://en.wikipedia.org/

Ustaše (Uprisers) - nickname for Croatian soldiers that drove out the Turks from Croatia in the years from 1683 to 1689. [1] former Uskoks. Commanders of the southern soldiers based in Dalmatia (1683) where Prince Franjo Posedarski, Prince Jerko Rukavina, Dujan Kovačević, Ilija Smiljanić, Šimun Bartolac and Stojan Janković (former muslim) Commanders of the northern soldiers based in Ogulin (1685) where Baron Franjo Oršić, Baron Stjepan Vojnović, Baron Ivan Gusić and Count Adam Purgstall.[2] The Ustasa army numbered several thousand soldiers that later settled with there families in the Lika and Krbava region of Croatia and are all found by name age and rank in the Census of Lika and Krbava in 1712.[3]

1. Radoslav Lopašić - DVA HRVATSKA JUNAKA: Marko Mesić i Luka Ibrišimović (Zagreb 1888) p 35.

2. Dragutin Hirca - LIKA I PLITVIČKA JEZERA (Zagreb 1900) p 66

3. Karl Kaser - POPIS LIKE I KRBAVE 1712. GODINE (Zagreb 2003) p 51-374


I am constantly deleted and blocked from editing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustase by,

1. User: Spylab

2. User: Rjecina

3. User: Kirker

4. User: Kuru

5. User: laughing man WikiProject Serbia.

6. User: Steel359


This is NO free Encyclopedia ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brkic (talk • contribs) 05:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

If I am not unblocked from editing this article within the next 24 hours.

This above entire message about http://en.wikipedia.org and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustase

Will be posted in one hundred forums all over the world

Example > http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1120986#1120986

This will automatically be picked up by the search engines in the coming ten years

Example >http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Usta%C5%A1e+wikipedia.org&btnG=Search

Enuf is Enuf !

--Brkic 08:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You are NOT "constantly deleted and blocked" by me

I have deleted your input ONCE. I did it because your contribution was utterly irrelevant to an article that quite clearly is about the insurgent movement started by dissident Croats during the period of the south-slav kingdom. It would be reasonable to mention somewhere in that article that the term had been used earlier, in the way you describe. But to allow it as the lead paragraph would be idiotic. No encyclopaedia on earth would do that.

There are two other ways in which you could show off your little bit of knowledge (if that is what's driving you). You could say in the article about Uskoks that they acquired the nickname "ustaše" and you could create an entirely separate Wikipedia article with a heading such as "Ustaše (nickname of the Uskoks." In the latter case it need not be a long article. Or indeed it could say simply "see Uskoks."

As far as I am concerned, you could do both of these things AND (as I said in my explanatory note at the time) you could mention at some appropriate point in the main Ustaše article that the term had been used earlier as a nickname.

I can't stop you publishing whatever rubbish you like about me in whatever forums you like. If you go ahead with what you have proposed to say, it is enough for me to know that you know you are telling a lie. Kirker 11:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Then You're not Spylab, Rjecina, laughing man, Steel359, Kuru. You'r just, Kirker right ?

Just how dumb do you think I am? Unblock the article for me to edit !

--Brkic 12:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously I am not those other people. Are you an idiot? And sorry, but I haven't a clue how to unblock you, or how to block you in the first place. Kirker 17:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

O You just happened to delete me ? You just happened to be at the right place at the right time ? I will post the complain on forums and blogs all across the internet until the day you allow me to edit this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustase

--Brkic 18:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blocking of Ustaše article

If you look for person who is guilty for blocking of article you will have your answer now. On 30 september I have writen this:

"Semi-protection It is possible to put this article in semi-protected mode for long period of time because it is popular with blocked users which are coming again and again. For this it is enough to see history page of article. Users User:Guivon , User:UstashkiDom , user:Brkic are blocked, user:Skoa is vandal which nobody has asked to be blocked. All in less of 40 days we are having 4 "new" users which play with article."

and administrators have accepted my demand. After you will work on wikipedia you will have possibility to edit this article because semi-protection is working only against new users. If you think that protection is not honest you can ask that article be unprotected on this link: Wikipedia:Requests for page protection

About your changes my only comment is that they are false because of 1 simple fact. I will not say why but let you read on croatian wikipedia. Look this link :[5]

If you want that something similar to that be writen in article Ustaše please write statement and I will put this statement in begining of article (something similar to : Prije 20 stoljeća riječju ustaša su se nazivali ustanici protiv Turske, Venecijanske ili Austrijske vlasti) You need to start cultural discussion with other users and not attack everybody who do not agree with you. --- Rjecina 14:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC


Is this also false then ? http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1i

Or are you going to delete that to ?

Quotation:

Ustaši so bili južni Slovani, ki so se bojevali proti vdoru turkov od 14. do 16. stoletja.

Translation:

Ustaša where southern Slavs, that fought against the turks from 14th to 16th century.

You try to falsify history true Wikipedia ! Because you are a enemy of Croatia !

You have already lost.

--Brkic 16:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Za dom - spremni!"

The Ustaše greeting was "Za dom - spremni!":


Salute: Za dom! For home(land)!

Reply: Spremni! (We are) ready!

This is not true.

It's an old Croatian military greeting,but Ustase used it. It was used by Croatian military during the Austro-Hungarinan rule when Croatians fought the Turks and even before that. You can clearly see that in the translation.

For Homeland...Ready!

It's got nothing to do with Ustase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.83.138.91 (talk) 15:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political party???

Somehow his article is listed on a List of political parties in Croatia [6] As the article is locked, and I find this to be both untrue [7] and offensive, I would like someone to correct this blasphemy!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.31.130 (talk) 14:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I must agree that the Ustashe movement is not represented in the Croatian Sabor by any political party, therefore it should not be listed as a political party in Croatia.SWik78 19:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political Infobox

The infobox wasn't political in nature and the only reason I used it was that the Ustashe were at one time in Croatian history a political party. I never meant to imply that they're a political party in modern Croatia and the infobox doesn't imply that either. The Infobox provided valuable quick reference information that I think is useful in the article. If that makes it any better I've added a disbanded field and changed the infobox so that if the disbanded field is used then the word "Former" is added to the infobox title. -- Esemono (talk) 09:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no problem with table but with category which this table is giving to article. When table is included article is having category Political parties in Croatia, but right category is Defunct political parties in Croatia. This is only problem. Please look end of your article version [8]. If you look categories you will see problem. -- Rjecina 15:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I fixed the template to reflect the correct category. // laughing man 19:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsubstantiated blame of the Czechoslovakians regarding the downing of JAT 364

Under the heading "After the war" in the second paragraph the article declares the following:

"In 1972, the Ustaše were blamed for the bombing of JAT Flight 364, which killed 27 people. However, it was later determined that the flight was downed by a pair of SA-12 missiles fired from Czechoslovakia."

I am disturbed by the second sentence "However, it was later determined that the flight was downed by a pair of SA-12 missiles fired from Czechoslovakia." This is an incredibly substantial statement that has no citation and no basis for fact in any article or historic document that I can find. Ustaše are generally considered to be the perpetrators of this act. The second sentence should be deleted unless an acceptable citation can be found.67.169.193.226 (talk) 04:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I remember noticing this some months ago. I checked it out at the time and found evidence somewhere that the claim was well founded. I'll try to track down whatever it was that I turned up. I agree that the statement should stay in only if it can be supported with a citation. (When you contribute to a Wikipedia discussion page, please type four tildas (~) at the end which will insert your name, date and time of message.) Kirker (talk) 13:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I've taken it out. It's an astonishing allegation, which, after the fall of the Warsaw Pact, would probably have been dug out of the Czech government archives and splashed all over the world's media, yet googling 'vesna ustase "surface to air"' gets 13 hits, including a bunch of wiki mirrors. So I'm deleting the sentence on the grounds that it's almost certainly bollocks, placed there by someone with a political agenda. --Aim Here (talk) 00:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racial ideology and Nazis

Did the Nazis themselves believe the Ustaše's claims about a non-slavic origin of the Croats? Or did they simply consider the Ustaše a convenient tool? Nik42 (talk) 02:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting

This may seem a rather minor issue, but I am mentioning it on the talk page here because I cannot edit the page.

Under the "Political Ideology" heading in the information box at the top right, the word "fascism" is misspelled as "facism." BecauseWhy? (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Three days later, I have finally gained established user status and fixed it myself. BecauseWhy? (talk) 20:42, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In the 1990s, during the Yugoslav wars, there was a resurgence of support for the Ustaše

This is false.This is a propaganda attempt to somehow connect the ww2 and the Yugoslav war in the 90's. In every country there are nazi's,individuals (idiots)Serbian propaganda throughout the 90's war portrayed Croats as Ustase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_propaganda

In 1993(during the war) there was a party that registered itself for the elections of 1995.They didn't get any votes.

The Hrvatski Oslobodilacki Pokret (HOP, Croatian Liberation Movement) remains active on the fringe of Croatian politics. The party, originally founded in Argentina in 1956 by Ante Pavelic (see also Argentina), leader of the war-time Ustasa movement and the Nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia, was in 1993 registered in Croatia and unsuccessfully took part in parliamentary elections in 1995. http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive2/croatia/croatia.htm They were banned long time ago.

This is pure Serbian Historical Revisionism for certain political purposes,so I'm removing it. The problem with Serbs nationalists is that every Croat who considers himself a patriot or a nationalist just proud of his country is automaticly seen as an Ustase sympathizer.Generalisation and exaggeration of facts were also a great part of Serb propaganda during the 90's conflict.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Dr.Milan Bulajic is a Srebrencia Genocide denier

A journalist asked for reaction to a statement by Mr. Milan Bulajic of the ‘Foundation on Research of Genocide’ in Belgrade, that, having studied documentation produced by the UN, and the ‘Serbian and Muslim armies’, he concluded that no genocide was perpetrated in Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS). Landale responded that any statement Mr. Bulajic allegedly made about there being no genocide after the fall of the enclave of Srebrenica flew in the face of the findings at the Tribunal, both by a Trial Chamber and the Appeals Chamber.

http://www.un.org/icty/briefing/2005/PB050420.htm ICTY International Crimes Tribunal Yugoslavia

The Belgrade Museum of Holocaust compiled a list of over 77,000 names of Jasenovac victims. It was previously headed by Milan Bulajić, who supported the claim of a total of 700,000 victims.

His name should be excluded wikipedia.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 00:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quoted text is a wrong confused mixup of totally unrelated units and officers of NDH

'These Muslim Bosnians joined in the Nazi and Ustaše forces as part of Waffen-SS divisions 13th SS Mountain Division Handschar in Bosnia (led by Amin al-Husayni) and 23rd SS Grenadier Division Kama advised by Edmund Glaise von Horstenau (the representative of the German military in Croatia) and led by Colonel Ivan Markulj, who was later replaced by Colonel Viktor Pavicic. Lt-Col. Marko Mesic commanded the artillery section. '


Markulj, Mesic and Pavicic fought for Germans on the Eastern Front (Russia) commanding the 369th infantry regiment ..... not the Waffen SS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lone plunger (talk • contribs) 21:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] inappropriate word-form in text

In the middle of the section entitled "Ideology", in the phrase, "... Muslims had a weak nation identity", shouldn't the word be "national", rather than "nation"? Thanks.

˜˜˜˜ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Denicho (talk • contribs) 20:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)