Talk:USA PATRIOT Act

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	USA PATRIOT Act was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 30, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed October 15, 2006 Peer review Reviewed Current Status: Former good article nominee

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Archives
Chronological archives
Archive 1 - June 2003 – February 2007

Contents 1 Vandalism 2 Help: Court: section 805 3 Clean Up Intro 4 Sub-article on the Re-authorization of March 2006 desirable. 4.1 or Move Re-authorization material to later on the page 5 legal jargon 6 Public Opinion Error 7 Links dead? 8 Requested move 8.1 Survey 8.2 Discussion 9 needs citation and examples: 10 History of this Act 11 A new tilte? 12 Benefits of Patriot Act 13 No more national security letters! 14 Edited first line 15 Complete rewrite 16 Article Size and organization 17 The Bill of Rights 18 Wait What??? 19 "About the EFF" section - removed 20 Page Size problem 21 Footnote fixes todo 22 History 23 Semi protection 24 Wikisource banner - in the lead section? 25 Formatting references for easier editing 26 Reauthorizations 27 Question about Patriot Act and opening accounts. 28 THOMAS'd

[edit] Vandalism

I'm just a humble Canadian citizen, but I'm pretty sure this: "The Act unofficially raped the U.S. constitution by expanding the authority of U.S. law enforcement agencies for the stated purpose of fighting terrorism in the United States and abroad." In the intro isn't completely factual. Maybe some of it is, but a) unofficially raped isn't NPOV at all b) shouldn't "constitution" be capitalized? --Stephen (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help: Court: section 805

In this section it says the court ruled section 805 to be unconstitutional. I read through the cited material, which appears to be the judges ruling on case CV 03-6107 ABC.

After reading through it I found the exact opposite to be true. It appears the plaintiffs "Humanitarian Law Project", had failed to provide any evidence of constitutional violation. On page 35 it clearly says.

"The Court therefore DENIES Plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment on this basis, concluding that Plaintiffs have failed to establish that the prohibition on providing "expert advice and assistance" violates the First and Fifth Amendments by giving the Secretary of State virtually unreviewable authority to designate groups as terrorist organizations."

I know to some this might not be clear but it basically says the Plaintiffs failed to prove violations of the First and Fifth Amendments.

If this is the case I believe it is... A judge in California found 805 unconstitutional. This was overturned by a superior court. Since one judge found it unconstitutional, some people feel it necessary to run around screaming "The court found 805 unconsitutional!!!" --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that might have been the case, the findings of higher courts always trump lower courts so I will change the article. If someone has information about 805 being found unconstitutional please let us know..Mantion 02:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure. See page 24 - finding 1 is "Plaintiffs have demonstrated that the Prohibition is Impermissably Vague but Have Failed to Demonstrate that the Prohibition is Substantially Overbroad." - Ta bu shi da yu 13:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean Up Intro

Hi all. I am new to the site and was just browsing this article. It seems like the intro is quite long and could be shortened considerably, both to improve readability and to make it consistent with other articles of a similar length. One idea would be to move all of the information about definitions of terrorist or terrorism to a separate section within the article. Thoughts? --Mackabean 17:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I have taken on the task of reorganizing the introduction. In particular, I removed the lengthy discussion of terrorism definitions, which is important but didn't seem appropriate for the intro. I will put that back in in another section. I also tried to highlight the relatively recent fight over the act's reauthorization, which seems important because it provided an opportunity for much more lengthy Congressional debate over the civil liberties and security issues with much more time than during the original passage of the bill. I welcome thoughts about this reorg from others interested in this subject. Thanks. --Mackabean 17:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-article on the Re-authorization of March 2006 desirable.

To take some of the detail about the Re-authorization act out of this summary article, a new sub-article would be a useful change and addition. Any takers? -- Yellowdesk 15:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] or Move Re-authorization material to later on the page

I agree that a sub-article might be the place for this stuff. In any case, it seems illogical and confusing to preface what the act does provide, which is contained in the following sections, with the stipulations incident to the act's reauthorization. If not a sub-article, can we perhaps reorder this portion of the page? Mcwabaunsee 18:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] legal jargon

I am not a registered member of wikipedia, but was wondering if it would be possible to create a side article or add a new section to the existing article explaining what the USA PATRIOT Act means in laymans English. Not everyone can understand the article as it is now (not everyone can understand the Act as it was issued...) and as it is an important document, I believe that anyone who wishes to read it should be able to understand it. We simple folk would really appreciate it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.10.37.16 (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

I would really appreciate being able to understand it. --24.123.188.12 19:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

There is very little "legal jargon" in the article. As for a synopsis of the act, the introduction paragraph is all that is needed. Of course, the act is very lengthy, so stating "I can't understand it" is not helpful. What part is not understood? Also, keep in mind that there is a lot of misinformation about the act. Therefore, the article must make note of what the act is not as well as what the act is. That always makes for a confusing read. However, it is not the fault of the Wikipedia authors. It is the fault of people who feel the need to lie in order to push their private agenda. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

With the greatest of respect, but I don't agree with that. This article was totally disorganized and confusingly written. I have totally rewritten it now. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Public Opinion Error

Under the Public Opinion section for the very last poll, the total percentage amounts to 197%. I assume that the polls in the first section also do not amount to 100% due to rounding, and / or another criteria not being listed (such as a neutral opinion).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.226.226.146 (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Just juvenile vandalism. The numbers are correct for the moment. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links dead?

It seems that the links in the fourth paragraph of the article are dead.

"In July 2005, the U.S. Senate passed a reauthorization bill (S. 1389) with substantial changes to several sections of the act, while the House reauthorizaion bill (H.R. 3199) kept most of the act's original language . The two bills were then reconciled in a conference committee that was criticized by Senators from both parties for ignoring civil liberty concerns.[5] The “compromise bill,” (text) which removed most of the changes from the Senate version, passed Congress on March 2, 2006 and was signed into law by President Bush on March 9, 2006."

Don't work anymore for me (there might be more in the article): http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:19:./temp/~c109vlG2PF:: (S. 1389) http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:2:./temp/~c109NYVJWm:: (H.R. 3199) http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:6:./temp/~c109VgtpwI::|full ((text)

In all three of the links, I get "Please resubmit your search Search results are only retained for a limited amount of time.Your search results have either been deleted, or the file has been updated with new information."

Also, did the re-authorization act do away with all sunset clauses?

It's not possible to use links like this from THOMAS, because they are specific to a session. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It also seems that the link for reference #3 is dead: Reardon, Marguerite and Declan McCullagh. "ACLU Challenges Patriot Act". News.com, November 2, 2005. Retrieved on April 9, 2007. -user:Thekaleb —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 08:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] needs citation and examples:

"Whether Congress has the Constitutional power to make this claim is the subject of much litigation." can we have a few examples of litigation that has been filed since the act has taken place... I am sure there are at least a few, but this is not a statment of fact without support. Mrathel 03:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)mrathel

All moot now after my rewrite. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of this Act

I'm starting on getting a history of this act together. See Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/History. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Just so people are clear: this subpage has been created to replace what we've got in this article. I never intended it to be a full article, though it might get to that point. And I'd also like to point out that I lost an immense amount of work because of the article move. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Sarah has rightly pointed out that I did this in the wrong namespace. Have moved to correct namespace: Talk. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This 1,200 page law was enacted 45 days after the Sept,11 attacks on the USA. It was said to have been kept ready for signing in the same week as 9-11 with an astonishing foresight that 9-11 events would happen and that a law would be required to control terrorism ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsssarma (talk • contribs) 23:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A new tilte?

I think this Artcile needs a new title how about theThe United State Patriot Act? Arnon Chaffin (I'm listening!) 18:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

if you review the section above: Talk:USA PATRIOT Act#Requested move you'll notice there was not overwhelming interest in changing the title of the article, and there exists a redirect for the title you suggest, so someone searching for the article will find it via the title you suggest. -- Yellowdesk 20:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In fact, it's a very bad idea, because not only is it longer than any other title, but it's not even remotely accurate. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Benefits of Patriot Act

What about the benefits of the act ? Are there any ? Were terrorist attacks successfully inhibited by the act ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.143.76.19 (talk • contribs)

Each of the 10 articles has a separate page. The descriptions of each of them makes it rather clear what benefits there are. The big problem with this entire subject is the constant use of "terrorism law" when referring to the Patriot Act. As such, benefits given to the victims of 9/11 are dismissed as not being part of the act. As for inhibiting terrorist attacks, who honestly believes that there will ever be a terrorist who publicly states, "I was going to attack XXXXX on XX/XX/XX, but the Patriot Act stopped me." -- Kainaw^(what?) 01:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Benefits? The Act represents one thing, the taking of civil rights that are granted and should be protected by the United States Constitution. Taking a few rights to "protect" the citizens is only a false sense of security. In the end, it grants the federal government more power than it should have. The citizens of Germany did appreciate the actions initially under Hitler's regime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idealist101 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because many believe (because of negative press coverage) that the Patriot Act is a bad thing doesn't mean supported and cited positive articles shouldn't be included. Wiki isn't about majority opinion. Its about facts, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.156.107.74 (talk) 14:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. However, adding anything that could possibly be seen as positive will likely be reverted and you'll be run out of Wikipedia by a crowd of pitchfork carrying fanatics. -- kainaw™ 14:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No more national security letters!

A federal judge struck down parts of the revised USA Patriot Act on Thursday, saying investigators must have a court's approval before they can order Internet providers to turn over records without telling customers.[4]

I'm too pleased to objectively add that. ←Ben^B4 16:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Good news indeed. Not sure where you'd put it, as this article is in a right mess. Hopefully should have this fixed soon. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed this. I have a comprehensive history section now. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edited first line

I removed "Passed just 45 days after Sept,11... and "dramatically" as it referred to the relative expansion of the Act. That it was "45 days after 9/11" has nothing to do with the Act itself. "Dramatically" is a matter of opinion, not fact. As the first part came almost word-for-word from the ACLU web-site, it was surely meant to impart a negative connotation with not too subtle sophistry that it was passed in great haste. However, depending on one's stance, it could also be construed as having taken plenty of time. In which case one might think that there was consensus enough to prevent the usual partisan quibbling that passes for normal on the Hill, and is therefore a good thing. In either case, it is simply not germain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Desmoid (talk • contribs) 19:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, passed 45 days after the attacks is germain, and has been commented on by more than a few critics. It should be rephrased though. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

One might argue that 9/11 was the impetus for the Act, but this does not change my point that "just 45 days after" is a meaningless statement of fact. I have stated succinctly why it is not germain to the article; it's cheap editorial. Saying it just is, or that some critics somewhere commented on it does not make it so. Desmoid 17:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's not cheap editorial to say that it was passed 45 days after the attack. Remove the word "just" and you have an NPOV statement. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected this now. As you can see from the controversy section, many people have commented on the time taken to pass the Act. This is pertinent to the article. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just reread what you wrote. You say that it was the impetus for the Act, yet this is a meaning statement of fact. That was plagiarised. I'm not sure that this makes logical sense. If it is a statement of fact, it can't be plagiarised. If it was the impetus for the Act, then it's not a meaningless fact. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't concede your argument. Why doesn't every article begin with how many days it took to pass a bill? Because it doesn't matter. I agree removing "just" makes it NPOV as a statement, but the article is not about 9/11. The opening paragraph above already states the day the bill passed; pointing back to 9/11 with "45 days" is melodramatic without adding new information. Minus "just", it still comes straight from the copyrighted ACLU USA Patriot Act page. It may be ok as far as web rules go, but it's bad form at the least. Desmoid 21:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, you are wrong then. As many have commented on the amount of time taken to pass the Act, it's significant. Incidently, not sure why you believe that it's plagiarism - please cite the source (i.e. give us the URL) of the ACLU page you are referring to. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it is poorly written. ACLU page - http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html I made no mention of plagiarism as it certainly is possible to put more than a couple words together independently, however rare, and specifically mentioned it might be ok as web rules go, i.e. free to disseminate. However, this is beside the point. Please explain what is significant about 45 days, other than people comment on it. Commentary does not imply importance. Precisely because people do find the topic controversial is all the more reason to render it as prosaic as possible. With "just" removed it still implicates something untoward in the manner in which it was passed. I suspect this is in part why it does not meet good article criteria. Desmoid 19:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you wrote "it still comes straight from the copyrighted ACLU USA Patriot Act page". The words "straight from" means there was a direct copy (i.e. plagiarism). That's what you wrote, and therefore that's the way I understood it. It's not POV to say that it was passed 45 days after the September 11 attacks. It's a solid fact, and reasonable to be noted. I don't see a particularly strong case here to remove that line. If you disagree, I would suggest taking it to WP:RFC for further comment. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Have it your way; let's call it plagiarism. In any case it has little to do with my two principle objections. Whether it was 11, 111 or 145 days after Sept 11 remains a meaningless fact. What is it about that many days in particular that makes it noteworthy you have yet to say, other than some people commented on it. I simply want to know why it is noteworthy. Second, how was it dramatically increased? Where is the drama? The correct word is "substantially". Desmoid 17:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write the lead, but I quite like it. I'll change "dramatically" to "substantially", that's a fair comment. However, the lead summarises the main points of the article, and the time taken for the legislation to pass after the Sept 11 attacks is noted more than a few times. This isn't a meaningless fact. If you take the time to read the Congressional Record (which I'm guessing you haven't) you'll see that Senator Patrick Leahy specifically commented on the fact that they wanted to move the legislation forward faster because of the attacks. Same with Senators Sarbanes, Hatch, Graham and Lott. That's a bald fact. Hardly plagiarism. However, I've modified the sentence. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was taken from the ACLU site, which makes it plagiarism. You argue that because it's fact therefore it cannot be plagiarism? Absurd. I'll admit to reading the congressional record, but only as a cure for insomnia. Leahy made a comment, fine; write that. But the persistent flag-waving of the pseudo-important "43" is inane. Of course if one is rabidly anti-patriot act it makes sense as a basis for its thinly-veiled agenda. Desmoid 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If you cannot be bothered reading the congressional record of the debates, don't say that it's boring and puts you to sleep and is therefore not relevant. It's not plagiarism to say that it was passed 45 days after the September 11 terrorist attacks, and it is clearly on the record from both Democrats and Republicans that it was passed in this time period because of the September 11 attacks. Thus I don't believe your criticism that it is a meaningless piece of information is valid. The fact that it was commented on by a number of parties and the timing of the legislation is quite significant. An Act of the same magnitude as the Patriot Act would probably not have passed as quickly had not an event as momentous as the Sept. 11th attacks happened.

I have tried to accommodate you with a compromise version. If you can't be satisfied with that, I'm not sure that you can be satisfied.

Incidently, I don't appreciate you implying I'm rabidly against the Patriot Act. That's an ad hominem argument - try to stick with facts please. It's inaccurate, and to be frank it's absurd to read in someone's position on the Patriot Act based on the sentence "passed 43 days after the September 11 terrorist attacks". I mean, how do you know that this wasn't written by someone who was impressed by the excellent work of the Senators and Congressmen who passed a complex and necessary piece of legislation in record time?!

For the record, I have certain concerns about the Act, but as a whole it is a pretty reasonable piece of legislation. I can say this because I've spent over two years reading what it actually says, and reading commentary from people who have a clue on both sides of the spectrum. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Your use of quotes is beguiling. You say I imply you are against the PA, then you say it's an argument? Well, which is it? I was speaking editorially; no statement was made, and as such no argument exists, ad hominem or otherwise. How do I know it wasn't written by people impressed...in record time? Are you serious? How many times must it be repeated, it came from the ACLU website, word for word. That, as far as your previous question goes, is that! "An Act of the same magnitude as the Patriot Act would probably not have passed as quickly had not an event as momentous as the Sept. 11th... " This is a demonstrably specious assumption. It's also non-dispositive; not only would it not have passed as quickly, in all liklihood it would never have been written otherwise! I'm sure you're an intellligent fellow, but thou doth protest too much, methinks. I certainly can be satisfied by taking out the first reference to the lenth of time; pepper the rest of article with it ad nauseum as it already is. Never mind that issue: this article is so mind-numblingly ponderous as to cause narcolepsy. Regards. 155.188.247.5 (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complete rewrite

Folks, I've finally completed a total rewrite to this article. Rather than do the editing on the main article and cause it to be in an unfinished state for long periods, I wrote a draft and polished it there. The draft can be found at Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft.

I have worked on this in sections. The edit history can be found at:

• Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft/Lead
• Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft/Background
• Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft/History
• Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft/Titles summary
• Talk:USA PATRIOT Act/Draft/Controversy

On a personal note, had I known the time and effort that this was to have taken me, I might have chosen an easier topic! There is information out there on the Partiot Act, but much of it is distorted or biased by either supporters or detractors. Another issue is that many of the titles just aren't documented, so I've read the entire Act on my own, aided by Patrick Leahy's section summary, CRS's summary and many other sources that do actually talk about the Act. This took me over two years to do, in which time I neglected editing other articles.

Along the way, however, I've learned a lot. I have a better understanding of how the U.S. Government works, how laws are created, how the U.S. Code is put together and how to read Acts of Congress. I've also learned how to use THOMAS and that the U.S. has this great service call the Congressional Research Service, which does an invaluable job of summarising and providing info about U.S. legislation.

So it's been fun! I do hope that people can get something useful out of this article now, as when I first read it (after Orin Kerr criticised it) I couldn't make heads nor tails of what the Act did, or why it was so controversial. There were also major gaps and inaccuracies in the article. It should be a lot better organized and informative now. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• I find it interesting that there is no comment on one controversial item, the Re-authorization's change to the process for appointing interim U.S. Attorneys, subsequently repealed in June 2007. See Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy timeline and Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy. I'll see If I can figure out some succinct paragraph or more, to describe the item...eventually.
  -- Yellowdesk 16:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wasn't that done because of the Reauthorization Act, and not the actual USA PATRIOT Act? - Ta bu shi da yu 22:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how to understand your comment. The appointment of interim U.S attorneys statutory changes were put into the Re-Authorization, yes. Which makes it part of the whole USA PATRIOT statute/bill/vehicle. In that sense it's a related controversy to the greater package.
  -- Yellowdesk 05:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• I was just wondering if it should be in this article, or an article about the reauthorization act. But as there is no such article, it probably should be in this one. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Now I understand. Sure, if there were such a Re-authorization article (and doubtless there are additional items specific to the re-authorization), it would make sense to appear in that article. Creating a new article and doing it well would be yet another research topic, alas. I guess it could grow out of a section here. -- Yellowdesk 12:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• One of the problems is that this article has grown too large. This was an unexpected issue for me when I authored the draft... if we add something, we might need to leave it to one short paragraph, then expand this into the Reauthorization Act article. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It appears that Ta bu shi da yu may have left the wikipedia project for good, in November 2007.
Here is the initial set of edits importing the rewrite on October 15, 2007.
Here is some additional background to the rewrite, posted on the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions on October 17, 2007.
See this item with fuller commentary. I may bring it to the talk page here, where it is relevant.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 16:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Size and organization

It is correctly pointed out by Ta bu shi da yu that this survey article is rather large (and that the topic is large as well). I think it's worth discussing and figuring out if some of sections might stand well on their own, and an even briefer summary article can be created that links to those more detailed sub-articles. It seems that the History section, in the first one-third of the article is most capable of benefiting from this kind of delegation, since it has no sub-articles to link to.
From the Table of Contents:

2 History
2.1 September 11 terrorist attack
2.2 First bills introduced
2.3 Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001 and Financial Anti-Terrorism Act
2.4 Birth of the USA PATRIOT Act
2.5 Opposition grows
2.6 Security and Freedom Ensured Act
2.7 Judicial and legislative challenges
2.8 Lead up to reauthorization
2.9 Reauthorization legislative history
2.10 Judges strike key provisions

-- Yellowdesk 17:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. That would definitely be the first candidate. If we could determine the important milestones of the history of the Act, that would be a great start. Then we can split it from the main article. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like we have an outline via the section headers, and in narrative form could in one to four or five sentences per section summarize this. With effort. -- Yellowdesk 17:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bill of Rights

(Removed comment from Potatomasterr)

Please review WP:SOAPBOX. Talk pages are for comments about the article itself, not opinions. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• It's not an opinion. Potatomasterr 23:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

See opinion and fact. No matter how much faith you have in your opinion, faith does not turn opinions into facts. -- kainaw™ 23:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't. It was an opinion. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wait What???

In response to the "Silly" comment below.

How can you compare the absoloute power that Hitler commanded to the power that a U.S. President has? The United States President does not have absoloute, "sovergn", power. The President answers to the American people and if he does not listen, well you can see what is going on in our government right now. Bush could not pass gas on Capitol Hill right now. - (Unsigned Comment)

And yet, the fact remains that the Patriot Act exists. 65.81.145.26 08:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

And my little toe exists. Big deal. Ever realize that we live in an environment where people are pressured to fear some words in some act that they know almost nothing about out of fear that the government may read their email or see what library books they check out? Fear can make people believe all kinds of ridiculous things. -- kainaw™ 13:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with Kainaw more. "Big deal" is a most reasonable response :-) Ta bu shi da yu 15:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "About the EFF" section - removed

We do not need an "About the EFF" section. Information on the EFF should go in the EFF article. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page Size problem

Hi Yall! This page is way too large. It's so large we've gotten some emails complaining about it. ^{(OTRS ticket#2007111810008747)} Can we focus some effort on cutting this page in half? I've noticed a number of "see-also" sections that have excess of 5 paragraphs of text. Do we really need that much duplicated content? I don't have much experience in the editing of this article so I'll need some help breaking this down. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I am the guy you got this to the size it now is. What do you mean by there is "see also" sections? That doesn't really make much sense. Of course, it is definitely correct that it needs splitting, but not at the cost of remove history or background of the Act - without this info it's hard to understand the Act. - 220.239.246.70 09:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I mean sections that are here simply to summaries and lead-to larger articles. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A log in to substantiate the above claim by 220.239.246.70 would be appreciated. If that editor is Ta bu shi da yu, please log in.
An undislcosed OTRS ticket text amounts to zero information on why the complaint should be attended to. Moot without further comment.
But I'll look at splitting out the history section.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 03:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't login, I have scrambled my password. - 211.30.32.138 (talk) 05:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like it's time for you to get another account. You're not done with wikipedia yet. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 15:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I have split out the history of the law / enactments / legislative history / judicial histories -- to USA PATRIOT Act history as a response to the above OTRS complaint, which has zero specificity or guidance or disclosure. See also above comments at Talk:USA_PATRIOT_Act#Article Size and organization. The reduction in size is about 75K, bringing the article to about 135 to 140 K, before fixing footnotes that have lost their initial instantiation. That takes it from # 15 in article size (where most long lists reside), to about # 175, more or less. (See Special:Longpages for current size as of the then current database update.)
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I only mention the ticket number to emphasis the seriousness of the WP:SIZE issue and to act as a reference for myself latter on. The ticket doesn't really contain any more useful information. Just remember that people on slower computers, embedded kiosks, mobile devices or OLPC type devices will have a difficult time with text files that are too large.

Suffice to say that our guidelines request that an article be no larger then about 50kb. I know it's hard in many cases and I see you've done some great work in reducing it. Thank you. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The next candidate is to split off the USA_PATRIOT_Act#Titles section, but that will take time, as in weeks, as each title of the act does deserve five-plus adequate summary sentences describing them here on the main article.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 19:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you can summarise the Patriot Act in 5 sentences, you deserve a medal and I take my hat off to you. - 211.30.82.214 (talk) 12:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to know what to cut and what to keep. Many of the major news stories in the U.S.A. during the past six years have related to this act in one way or another. Toyalla (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnote fixes todo

Y Done
These footnotes: to be re-instated, where the first instance was moved out with USA PATRIOT Act history
32, 33, 43, 113, 133, 134, 176, 199, 206, 207, 208
To cross off as fixed.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Wouldn't it be a good idea to actually summarise the history and have a link to it? That is very important to the Act. Also, the background has been entirely removed now, which makes this article not particularly useful at all. It doesn't mention FISA, the ECPA, or in fact anything that would actually put the Patriot Act within it's context. We really need this info in this article, or it should be put into the history article. The history was really important, as that had really important info about the parts of the Act that were held unconstitutional, and how the Act came about. This is all gone from the main article, I believe there should be some more info to give background to the Act. - 211.30.32.138 (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. For now this satisfies the OTRS complaint, and at leisure a better summary can be written. The text you mention is alive and well over at USA PATRIOT Act history.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's not. The missing text is as follows:

Background

The Patriot Act made a number of changes to U.S. law. Key acts changed were the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1968 (ECPA), the Money Laundering Control Act of 1986 and Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), as well as the Immigration and Nationality Act. Title II of the Patriot Act made a number of significant changes to the laws relating to foreign intelligence surveillance, of which the main two Acts that were affected were FISA and the ECPA. FISA came about after the Watergate scandal and subsequent investigations by the Church Committee, which discovered and criticised abuses of domestic spying by the National Security Agency (NSA), Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). This led to widespread congressional and public outcry, resulting in Congress passing FISA in 1978.^[1] FISA governs the way in which U.S. intelligence agencies may conduct wiretaps and the interception of communications in order to gather foreign intelligence. FISA established the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) and a FISC Court of Review which administer foreign intelligence related applications for access to business records, wiretaps, microphone "bugging," physical searches and the use of pen registers and trap and trace devices. The Act does not apply to U.S. citizens, but is limited to dealings with foreign powers and nationals. The ECPA was an amendment to Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, which is sometimes known as the "Wiretap Statute." The Wiretap Statute was mainly the result of two Supreme Court cases — Katz v. United States and Berger v. New York — and from criticism by the Church Committee of the actions of COINTELPRO (Counter Intelligence Program). The Supreme Court found in both Katz v. U.S. and Berger v. New York that Fourth Amendment search and seizure protections prohibited warrantless wiretaps. COINTELPRO was a program of the FBI that was aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States. COINTERPRO's operations during 1956 to 1971 were broadly targeted against organizations that were (at the time) considered to have politically radical elements. These included those whose stated goal was the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (such as the Weathermen), non-violent civil rights groups such as Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Southern Christian Leadership Conference and violent groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party.^[2] The Church Committee found that most of the surveillance was illegal.^[2] Consequently Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act, though noting that wiretaps and interception of communications are a vital part of the law enforcement, found that wiretapping had been undertaken without legal sanction and were being used to overhear the private conversations of U.S. citizens without their consent. These conversations were then often being used as evidence in court proceedings. Therefore, in order to protect the integrity of the courts while also ensuring the privacy of citizens was not violated, the Act provided a legal framework within which wiretaps and interceptions of communications could be used. The Act requires a court order authorizing the use of such measures against U.S. citizens, with penalties for those who do not get such authorization. The notable exception to these orders is in section 18 U.S.C. § 2511(3), which makes an exception to the restrictions of wiretaps in cases where the President must take measures to protect the U.S. from actual or potential hostile actions from a foreign power. When Title III was established telecommunications was in its infancy and since that time many advances in communications technology have been made. This made it necessary to update the law to take into account these new developments. Thus the ECPA was passed, and extended Title III to also protect wire, oral and electronic communications while in transit, as well as protecting stored electronic communications. The ECPA also extended the prohibition of the use of pen register and/or trap and trace devices to record dialling information used in the process of transmitting wire or electronic communications without a search warrant. Along with changes to surveillance measures, the Patriot Act also made substantial changes to laws relating to money laundering. The main law changed was the Money Laundering Control Act (MLCA), which was itself an amendment to the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) The BSA was passed by Congress in 1970 and is designed to fight drug trafficking, money laundering and other financial crimes. It requires financial institutions to keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments, file reports of cash transactions exceeding a daily aggregate amount of $US10,000, and to report suspicious activity that might signify money laundering, tax evasion or other criminal activities. The MLCA, passed in 1986, further enhanced the BSA by making it a crime to structure transactions in such a way as to avoid BSA reporting requirements. Immigration law was also tightened under the Patriot Act. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (INA), also known as the McCarran-Walter Act, was passed by Congress in 1952 and was designed to restrict immigration into the U.S. It allowed the government to deport immigrants or naturalized citizens engaged in subversive activities and also allowed the barring of suspected subversives from entering the country. The Act is codified under Title 8 of the United States Code, which primarily governs immigration and citizenship in the United States. Prior to the INA, a variety of statutes governed immigration law but were not organized within one body of text. The Act was later modified by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, and then by the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. Since the Patriot Act, Title 8 has been modified even further by various Acts, including the Real ID Act of 2005.

- 211.30.72.60 (talk) 03:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. Obviously I had wrongly allowed that section to be dropped when making the new article USA_PATRIOT_Act history
  -- Yellowdesk (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi protection

Why is this semi-protected? - 211.30.32.138 (talk) 05:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You can pursue this with (Spellcast) See this edit history
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 14:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikisource banner - in the lead section?

I believe that the banner should go down the bottom, just like every other article. - 211.30.32.138 (talk) 05:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It previously was at the start of the "Titles" Section, where it got lost under the sidebar listing all of the U.S. Code that had been changed/amended. I moved it to the external links section at your suggestion.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 15:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting references for easier editing

This is a reference-intensive article, for good reasons.
I am in the process of going through the text and formating how the <ref> and </ref> tags relate to the text so that they can be found with greater ease in the editing screen. Here is what I suggest when people add a reference. The good result of this is that you can locate the end of any reference easily, since the closing </ref> is on the first column (while editing). This should make it easier to add or edit the text of the article while noticing where the end and start of each reference is located.

Here is the intented result:

some text at the end of the sentence.NOSPACE<ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
body of reference material hereSPACE-NEWLINE
</ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
Start of next sentence.

The result looks like this while actually editing:

some text at the end of the sentence.<ref>
body of reference material here
</ref>
Start of next sentence.

---

The intended result is that the editor can easily find:
- the end of any reference,
- the beginning and start of each reference when there are several together at the end of a paragraph or sentence,
- and not least, easily find the start of the sentences,
- plus generally all sentences are set-off from the references, instead of all being run-on together.
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reauthorizations

Based on the Congressional Record, it looks like the reauthorizations took place in March, not February, of 2006. Is there a source that backs up the current claim of February? Sam22789 (talk) 01:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you have a source that says March, change it and add a ref tag to it. -- kainaw™ 14:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Patriot Act and opening accounts.

I apologize for being a bit off topic.

I note that, after turning 18, I could not open any bank accounts without a driver's license or state I.D.. I could however, close an existing bank account, without a government I.D. Which part of the Patriot Act covers this? And how exactly does it help?

A semi-contradicting part is, I opened a bank account savings with my Mom as a minor (after the Patriot Act). So my Mom had to have her driver's license as I.D. But after I turned 18, I could take her name off of it. That's apparently the only way around the Patriot Act to my knowledge. Now, without an official state I.D., I can't open any new bank accounts of course. I could close the 1 I already have, but then, I cant re-open it (even with the same bank I imagine). So my questions are which part of the Patriot Act states/enforces this (so I can read/look it up) and then my other question is sort of the logic of this: how can you close an account and take all your money without a legit government I.D. but you need 1 to open? Shouldn't it be both? (Reverse would make more sense). Thanks. Neal (talk) 21:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC).

Don't know about closing an account, but the part of the Patriot Act that covers this is actually in section 326, though it's a bit indirect. Basically, this section tasked the Secretary of the Treasury with prescribing regulations to set forth the minimum standards that financial institutions must undertake to verify the identity of customers who open accounts. This was done after public consultation, and eventually Treasury came up with 31 CFR 103.121. The regulation sets out the minimum requirements for setting up a Customer Identification Program (CIP). This is why you now need to identify yourself with things like a driver's license or ID. It's basically to prevent money laundering. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 13:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It is indirect in that the law doesn't require a driver's license. The law requires a verifiable identity. They bank doesn't want to deal with a lot of problems, so the bank requires a driver's license. This is very similar to the belief that you have a driver's license to fly on an airplane. Some guy in San Francisco wrote multiple newspaper articles about how evil the Patriot Act was because you had to have a driver's license to fly. Finally, after many years of preaching this message, someone asked him if he'd tried flying without a driver's license. Of course not. So, he tried it and all he had to do was go through the whole baton waving search before boarding. Because he got special treatment, he skipped the normal line and was through security faster than if he had a driver's license. If you pressured your bank, it is possible that someone will agree that you don't need a driver's license by law, it is just bank policy. -- kainaw™ 14:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, knee-jerk reactions almost always make people look like a bit of an ass. I know that I felt a bit of an ass after I'd actually researched the Patriot Act - it wasn't as bad as people made out, though IMO it's not a particularly well drafted piece of legislation either. The indirect identification point you make is eminently sensible. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 09:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Mk, thank you both. Neal (talk) 17:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC).

No probs. :-) Tbsdy lives (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] THOMAS'd

Is there a reason for citing links to THOMAS with the ridiculous forced acronym, especially since the articel says that there is no basis for the phrase? 68.39.174.238 (talk) 00:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty reasonable objection. I have gone and fixed this. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 07:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)