Talk:Ursula Kemp

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A fact from Ursula Kemp appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 17 April 2008.

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[edit] Charnel

"Charnel" in Middle English means "cemetery": as in charnel house, its only familiar use. For charnel as an ingredient, signifying mortal dust from a graveyard or coffin, see mummia, or "mummy". I'd add this — in part from OED— to the article in a footnote, but doubtless it would be challenged, as "original research". --Wetman (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

That's fair enough. The "chervil" explanation came from the source I used: "'Charvell', i.e. chervil, a herb, would be much more likely in this context; English witches did not at this date rob graves." It would definitely be worth adding the bit you mention, as I'm sure you won't be the only reader coming to that conclusion. Maybe incorporating the above quote into the footnote would help.--BelovedFreak 11:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I see that ćerfille, ćerfelle (Middle English) appears in OED, s.v. "chervil"; OED gives no charvel as an alternative spelling, but does compare the word with Middle Dutch kervel— also with the e. Since "witches' mummy" is an ingredient in Macbeth's witches' brew— "eye of newt", etc.— I'm taken aback that anyone would say in print, "English witches did not at this date rob graves". What English witches did or didn't do depends, you'd think, on the documents. It's all contemporary fantasy of what "witches do" anyway, isn't it? in this case a "private" interview for which we have the interpretation of the interviewer alone: whose details are these? Ursula Kemp's? or her "interviewer"'s?

At Wikipedia's article mummy, I'm reading "In the Middle Ages, based on a mis-translation from Arabic it became common practice to grind mummies preserved in bitumen into a powder to be sold and used as medicine. When actual mummies became unavailable, the sun-desiccated corpses of criminals, slaves and suicidal people were substituted by mendacious merchants.^[1] The practice developed into a wide-scale business which flourished until the late 16th century." For "mummy" as an ingredient in sixteenth-century potions, I should think some googling would turn up plenty of examples.

Oh, look! Here's Ben Jonson's The Masque of Queens (1609), where the fourth hag says:

And I ha' been choosing out this skull

From charnel-houses that were full;

From private grots and public pits

And frighted a sexton out of his wits.

So there's a hag that did at this date rob graves!

I hesitate to broach this in the article myself, but you certainly may.

[edit] Note

--Wetman (talk) 12:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I will give it some thought as to how to approach this.--BelovedFreak 14:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Barbara Rosen's passing footnote in Witchcraft in England, 1558-1618 need not stand in the way of documented usage.--Wetman (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)