Talk:Uranus/archive 4

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Uranus on the main page

I propose to nominate Uranus to be the article of the day on December 7 2007—the date of equinox. Ruslik 14:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

What does the gravitational parameter doing in Mass?

Why does this appear in Physical characteristics - Mass: "GM=5,793,939 ± 13 km³/s²"? kandrey89 23:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, it is because the value for G is not known very precisely, while the value for GM can be known very well. Since G and M always appear together in the realavent equations, there is no real need to pull them apart. 128.6.227.175 21:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Coldest Atmosphere?

Hello, in the introduction, there is written: "It is the coldest planetary atmosphere in the Solar System,..." Should that mean, the atmosphere is colder than on Neptun (20 AU compared to 30 AU after all, although the internal heat source is missing). For what I read, Neptuns temperature on the atmosphere ist about -200 °C (1 Bar) and -220 °C (0.1 bar). And for Uranus, I read similar values. Is there a source, which cite this concise, that the atmosphere on Uranus is distinctive colder than on neptunes? regards, --FrancescoA 16:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Ref [10] (Fig.6) shows that the lowest temperature in the tropopause of Uranus is ~49 K, which is lower than the same value for Neptune. Ruslik 18:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! This download is huge, so I didn't download this pdf. --FrancescoA 08:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been asked to upload the Uranus images onto the Commons

but I haven't a clue how to do it. Can anyone tell me? Serendi^podous 16:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it was me. I'm not sure whether I confused you with Ruslik0. I don't want to force you of course. It was my bid, so I should have to do that. But it is not so urgent anyway, because my newly tranlated article (from the englisch WP, which is fantastic (so detailed and good), and from what I saw you and Ruslik0 made the bulk contributions, if I am not mistaken) , that I decided to try to translate the whole article), is (still not) accepted to be put it into the article area, because I made it in first line for myself without making a discussion before. I in the meantime saved the pictures and stored them for the time being onto the upload page on the german page.--FrancescoA 23:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want you can use them in the german version or you can download them to wikicommons. Unfortunatly I don't have time right now to do this myself.Ruslik 08:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I will do this, when I finally really need them. --FrancescoA 16:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

pronounciation

Hi. Can we make it clear in the article, for people who don't recognise phonetic, that it's correctly pronounced "YOOR-a-nus", not "your-AY-nus"? Maybe that's why people are vandalising it. I'm sure there are dozens of reliable sources this can be cited from. Also, how about a spoken version of the name? Maybe not in the lede, where we mention its pronounciation correctly, but later in the article. Everyone thinks it's funny. Well, it's not. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Why would there be a 'y' sound in it? It's OO-rah-noos. What you're suggesting would be as bad as "your anus" as it would sound approximately like "urine us."

Well either way, can we indicate its pronouncation in something that can be read by the vast majority of the readership, not a bunch of symbols that might as well be jibberish (and indeed don't always display on some browsers). Timrollpickering (talk) 02:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Seriously. I hate the IPA. ... that said, you really need to cut it out with this 'pronounciation' bulljazz. It's proNUNciation. You have to imagine a nun smacking you, rather than a noun.. because verbs have pronunciations too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 04:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you have the readable (i.e., non-IPA) version of the "incorrect" pronunciation up, but not the correct! It would be more helpful if someone put the readable form of the "correct" pronunciation up. That said, I think oo-rah-noos is the best pronounciation, as it seems to be the only one that does not sound like something slightly offensive in today's society.75.93.4.164 (talk) 05:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Once considered one of the blander-looking planets, Uranus (pronounced YOOR un nus) has been revealed as a dynamic world with some of the brightest clouds in the outer solar system and 11 rings." From nasa.gov. You can't honestly believe that changing the planet's name to some nonstandard pronunciation is a good idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.209.54 (talk) 09:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of how individuals prefer that it be pronounced, or whether you're offended by silly sounding pronunciations, the vast majority of people pronounce the word "yer-AY-nus" -- that has been it's name for quite a while. The article mentions that the Greek base of the word is the same base as the element [Uranium]. Think objectively, not emotionally about how people pronounce that word -- it's "yer-AY-nium". Michael.Urban (talk) 13:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

207.250.91.2

It seems that either way is OK:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/uranus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Exguyparis (talk • contribs) 16:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh. ... looks like there's a little problem here.

Someone reaaaaaalllllly has some time on their hands. Every reference to the proper name Uranus has been changed to, well, you've seen it.

Sorry. I don't know how to use wikipedia well enough to inform those that should know.

Poor page

well, some people really need lives. Vandalizing poor defenceless pages...T.T

Well, I've been here for five minutes and the page has been vandalised about twenty times.—Preceding unsigned comment added by RegaL the Proofreader (talk • contribs) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The image

I must say, the photo doesn't look impressing. Is there really no better image of the planet to find? Greswik (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It depicts the planet okay. I guess if you want to you can go look around for a better one, personally I think the picture is good enough. RegaL the Proofreader (talk) 17:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It only depicts a big light-blue ball. We see the same thing? I know the planet is far out, but it really seems like a boring picture. I haven't got any better here, my starships broken down. ;-) Greswik (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, okay then. Yes, it's only a light blue ball. I think it's actually a pic from Voyager 2, though, and I believe it's one of the only ones.

Wanna borrow my starship? Only one million an hour ;-) RegaL the Proofreader (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately that's what the planet looks like, or did when the only close-up pictures were taken. There's nothing at all wrong with the photo, Uranus is, unfortunately, really that bland-looking. Riedquat (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Under Miscellaneous

Under the Uranus page, I had noticed that one person has humorously edited all the 'Uranus"s to say 'Your Anus'. While I do not agree with what said editor has done, I do believe that you should have a side note addressing the fact that 'Uranus' is phonetically pronounced 'Your Anus'. Furthermore, I believe that it is culturally relevant and is therefore deemed worthy of a spot on this page. If I may:

"Comically, when spelled phonetically, Uranus is pronounced 'Your Anus'. For example, a science teacher may ask, "What are the characteristics of Uranus?" In which a student, class clown if you will, may reply, "Hairy." "

Just think about it. Jared H —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.66.50 (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've thought about it, and I seriously don't think that something like that deserves a place within a Wiki article. It's just not encyclopdic content.RegaL the Proofreader (talk) 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Must say i do wonder if herschell had a smile over it.77.251.188.67 (talk) 22:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Lock This Article

Dude, this article is getting vandal'd every 2 minutes. Can someone lock this article from edits? --199.227.86.10 (talk) 18:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I second this call. My first click-through from the main page led me to one of the vandalized articles. It's childish bathroom-type humor and not acceptable especially as it's linked from the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.164.170 (talk) 18:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've semi-protected it for now, as the vandalism is heavy, even for a featured article, but be aware that another administrator may unprotect it again. Acalamari 18:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Confusion on Main page condensed version

"Uranus' atmosphere, while still composed primarily of hydrogen and helium, ..." After reading the article more closely, and allowing for others' usage differences, I know what it means, but my first thought was, "What was its composition way back when it was discovered?" Tim1977 (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I rephrased it a bit. Is it clearer now, do you think? —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 19:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Partly confusing introduction

It says in the introduction that:

"It is the coldest planetary atmosphere in the Solar System, with a minimum temperature of 49 K (−224 °C, -371 °F), and has a complex layered cloud structure, in which water is thought to make up the lowest clouds, while methane makes up the uppermost layer of clouds.[10]"

This statement is misleading and may possibly incorrectly paraphrase the cited reference by summarizing too many details into one sentence. For water to make up the lowest clouds, a word or two about the corresponding atmospheric conditions (temperature and pressure) that the clouds of water face would be well spent. Particularly, since it is stated that (at least certain parts of) the atmoshpere is (are) relatively cold with just above 49K, and elsewhere it is stated that wind speeds are 250 m/s, poses the questions what keeps the most likely water-based ice/snow from forming a hard core or ice shelfs? Alternatively the temperature of the water clouds could simply be much higher then the reader might be led to believe. Yet another option is that the extreme wind speeds prohibit the formation of ice shelfs.

Lastly, why is solar system capitalized into "Solar System"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.46.103.18 (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A few points:

• Please sign your comments (four ~ marks are enough)

• New topics for discussion are placed at the bottom, not the top

• "Solar System" is capitalised because IAU rules stipulate that all names of astronomical objects be capitalised, including the Solar System.

• I have edited the line and broken it into two.

Thank you. Serendi^podous 22:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Naming

"The name Georgium Sidus or "the Georgian" was still used infrequently" Is it? I have never heard it called this. Unless someone can come up with a reference this should be removed. Mtpaley (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've revised the phrasing to make it clearer. Serendi^podous 23:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

About the Moon Names

Article says the moon names were taken from Shakespeare & Alexander Pope -- incorrect. These names as listed were indeed present in Midsummer Night, but they're names from the Fairy Queen "universe" of fables, which predate Shakespeare. It should say the names come from Medieval fairy romances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.118.190 (talk) 23:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That could be said about the large moons, but not about the smaller moons, which are drawn exclusively from Shakespeare. Serendi^podous 02:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Urectum

Hmmmmmmmmm 86.129.100.124 (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation, again

I've moved this here:-
"The stressed syllable in the name Uranus is properly the first, because the penultimate vowel a is short (ūrănŭs) and in an open syllable. Such syllables are never stressed in Latin.^[1] The historically correct pronunciation of the name by English speakers is therefore [ˈjʊ.rə.nəs]. The historically incorrect pronunciation, [jʊˈɹeɪ.nəs], with stress on the second syllable and a "long a" (ūrānŭs) has become very common."
First, it’s superfluous:

• the IPA pronunciation is at the top of the page/ in the first sentence
• there is a lengthy discussion on the talk page about it; if you feel it’s important, why not footnote a link to that?
• this is just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Second, it's dubious;

• “ the stressed syllable...” : You’re saying the Romans said “urinous”? That will take a bit of proving! In all the Latin words I can think of , the “u” is sounded “oo”; it’s only the Brits (and Americans) that sound it as “you”.
• “historically correct...” ; were does that come from? No-one said “urinous” before 1985, when the media woke up to Voyager arriving; no-one wanted to talk about “the probe to Uranus”, or “the ring around Uranus”, or whatever.
• “historically incorrect...” : again,who says? It was always “you rain us” when I was at school.The adjective Uranian isn’t said “your onion”; The element Uranium isn’t “yer-un-yum”: So why?

So you have three choices:-

• “oo-rahn-us”, which is correct, but sounds pretentious, and a bit odd.
• ”you-rain-us”, which is familiar, but sounds vulgar, so it’s a cheap source of humour.
• “urinous”, which is even less correct, and just as bad.
  

And I don't think there's any room to pontificate about it. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some valid points; a lot of baloney.

• Discussing the proper pronunciation of names with contested pronunciations is common Wiki practice
• Linking to talk pages is completely against Wikipedia guidelines. They are neither fixed nor authoritative.
• There is no fixed standard for pronuncing Latin in the modern context. Every language does it differently. But the stresses are the same
• Are you seriously suggesting that, in the 204 years between 1781 and 1985, NO-ONE pronounced "Uranus" in the Latinate form? Even when Latin was still a required subject in schools?
• By your logic, we would pronounce "maniac" "muh-NY-ac" and "miscellany" "miss-ul-AY-nee"

Here's a source. The Oxford BBC Guide to pronunciation lists "YOO-ra-nus" (NOT "urinous") as the pronunciation "preferred by astronomers." Serendi^podous 15:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Baloney? why, thank you!

Your points:-

.a) I’ve no objection to discussing pronunciation: my objection was to having a paragraph laying down the law on a point that is at least debateable.

.b) I didn’t know links to talk pages were wrong, so I withdraw that suggestion; though I would have thought indicating there was a discussion on a subject would be a good thing.

.d) I am suggesting that when I did Latin at school I never heard anyone say “urinous”, which I think I would have remembered; which takes us to .c), there isn’t a fixed standard for pronouncing Latin. And, it begs the question that “urinous” is the Latinate form. And anyway, why Latin? It’s a Greek name. If the Romans did say “urinous” then that itself is a mis-pronunciation.

. e) “maniac” is said that way, in “maniacal”; and “miscellany” when it’s “miscellaneous”; I’m not sure what point you’re making, there.

And (f), Yes, I know YOO-ra-nus is preferred by astronomers, (though it still sounds like urinous); but how long has that been the case? Before Voyager? I know when I say “you-rain-us”, I get told “you mean urinous”; Well actually I mean oo-rahn-us, but if I said that I’d just get a funny look. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

e) You said that Yoo-RAY-nus was a valid pronunciation because it echoed "Uranium" and "Uranian". I was saying that if you followed that logic to its conclusion, "maniac" would be pronounced "muh-ny-ac" because it echoed "maniacal" and "miscellany" be pronounced "miss-ul-AY-nee" because it echoed "miscellaneous". 18:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serendipodous (talk • contribs)

Ah! With you;

To return to the beginning, though,I notice that now the IPA details have disappeared; Is it worth re-instating them, putting in a footnote with that source you mentioned, and saying YOO-rah-nus is the pronunciation is preferred by astronomers? Would that resolve this? I can give it a go, if you want. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reinstated. IT would be better to discuss the issue in the page, rather than in a note. Serendi^podous 03:21, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I see you’ve put the paragraph back in; it’s better than it was, but this:-

“The preferred pronunciation of the name Uranus among astronomers is (ūrănŭs),< > with the first syllable stressed, because the penultimate vowel a is short and in an open syllable, and such syllables are never stressed in Latin”

is still implying that YOO-rah-nus is the way it’s pronounced in Latin, which I’d dispute, because the “u” is wrong; it would be OO-rah-nus, or UHR-an-us, if anything:

And this:-

“The alternate pronunciation, [jʊˈɹeɪ.nəs], with stress on the second syllable and a "long a" (ūrānŭs) has become very common, however"

skates over the point that most of the English-speaking world says it that way. Moonraker12 (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As regards your first point, the sentence gives the rationale for the preferred pronunciation, and I don't think it needs to go any further. As regards your second, how do you know that most of the English speaking world says it that way? Have you done a survey? Serendi^podous 20:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, you miss my point.

This : “…with the first syllable stressed, because the penultimate vowel a is short and in an open syllable, and such syllables are never stressed in Latin.” is a non sequiter; even if it is correct, "YOO-ran-us" still wouldn’t be the Latin pronunciation because the “u” is wrong.

And yes, I have done a survey, of sorts: I’ve just asked around the room, and 5 out of 5 people said "you-RAYN-us", though one had heard of "YOO-ran-us" when prompted.

So I’ve changed it to something more exact. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

This whole pronunciation issue occurs on every astronomy page, with different conclusions. On the Enceladus talk page, astronomers prefer the English pronunciation over the classical, because
“ενκέλαδος is a Greek word but enceladus is definitely an English word, and is pronounced [ɛnˈsɛlədəs] according to the rules of English orthography”,
And
“Wikipedia should not be prescriptive, but descriptive. We have no business telling people what is correct and incorrect”
Sauce for the goose? Moonraker12 (talk) 11:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

As a coauthor of this article I want to make several points:

1) Wikipedia (at least its part related to Natural Sciences) is a scientific encyclopedia, which means that the pronunciation that is common among astronomers should be treated as the main variant.

2) What public actually says is irrelevant and deserves only a brief mentioning. In addition there is no reliable sources that can be cited to support any statement regarding public prefererences. I think nobody has ever conducted any (published) research into this issue. So I replaced 'colloquially' with 'often'.

3) This issue is actually not very important from the scientific point of view especially for non-native speakers. In other languages pronunciation can be completelly different. In Russian the planet is pronounced [u'ran] (spelled: Уран). Element uranium is spelled and pronounced exactly the same as the planet.

I actually want to stop any further tinkering with this page. The current edition is a reasonable description of the pronunciation and I do not want any wars at this page. Ruslik (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, that's fair enough.

You "want to stop any further tinkering with the page"; ambitious, given the nature of WP, but no, I’m not looking for an edit war either, and yes, the paragraph covers the point well enough as it is. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

PS: "Уран"? Really? Not "Юран"? And uranium is "Ураниум"? It really is only the English who have this problem, isn't it? Moonraker12 (talk) 15:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Uranium in russian is spelled Уран and is pronounced as [u'ran]—exactly the same as the planet. The meaning depends on context. Ruslik (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)