Talk:Uranus/Archive 5

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Uhhh. ... looks like there's a little problem here.

Someone reaaaaaalllllly has some time on their hands. Every reference to the proper name Uranus has been changed to, well, you've seen it.

Sorry. I don't know how to use wikipedia well enough to inform those that should know.

Naming

"The name Georgium Sidus or "the Georgian" was still used infrequently" Is it? I have never heard it called this. Unless someone can come up with a reference this should be removed. Mtpaley (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've revised the phrasing to make it clearer. Serendipodous 23:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

About the Moon Names

Article says the moon names were taken from Shakespeare & Alexander Pope -- incorrect. These names as listed were indeed present in Midsummer Night, but they're names from the Fairy Queen "universe" of fables, which predate Shakespeare. It should say the names come from Medieval fairy romances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.118.190 (talk) 23:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That could be said about the large moons, but not about the smaller moons, which are drawn exclusively from Shakespeare. Serendipodous 02:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation, again

I've moved this here:-
"The stressed syllable in the name Uranus is properly the first, because the penultimate vowel a is short (ūrănŭs) and in an open syllable. Such syllables are never stressed in Latin.[1] The historically correct pronunciation of the name by English speakers is therefore [ˈjʊ.rə.nəs]. The historically incorrect pronunciation, [jʊˈɹeɪ.nəs], with stress on the second syllable and a "long a" (ūrānŭs) has become very common."
First, it’s superfluous:

  • the IPA pronunciation is at the top of the page/ in the first sentence
  • there is a lengthy discussion on the talk page about it; if you feel it’s important, why not footnote a link to that?
  • this is just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Second, it's dubious;

  • “ the stressed syllable...” : You’re saying the Romans said “urinous”? That will take a bit of proving! In all the Latin words I can think of , the “u” is sounded “oo”; it’s only the Brits (and Americans) that sound it as “you”.
  • “historically correct...” ; were does that come from? No-one said “urinous” before 1985, when the media woke up to Voyager arriving; no-one wanted to talk about “the probe to Uranus”, or “the ring around Uranus”, or whatever.
  • “historically incorrect...” : again,who says? It was always “you rain us” when I was at school.The adjective Uranian isn’t said “your onion”; The element Uranium isn’t “yer-un-yum”: So why?

So you have three choices:-

  • “oo-rahn-us”, which is correct, but sounds pretentious, and a bit odd.
  • ”you-rain-us”, which is familiar, but sounds vulgar, so it’s a cheap source of humour.
  • “urinous”, which is even less correct, and just as bad.

And I don't think there's any room to pontificate about it. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some valid points; a lot of baloney.

  • Discussing the proper pronunciation of names with contested pronunciations is common Wiki practice
  • Linking to talk pages is completely against Wikipedia guidelines. They are neither fixed nor authoritative.
  • There is no fixed standard for pronuncing Latin in the modern context. Every language does it differently. But the stresses are the same
  • Are you seriously suggesting that, in the 204 years between 1781 and 1985, NO-ONE pronounced "Uranus" in the Latinate form? Even when Latin was still a required subject in schools?
  • By your logic, we would pronounce "maniac" "muh-NY-ac" and "miscellany" "miss-ul-AY-nee"


Here's a source. The Oxford BBC Guide to pronunciation lists "YOO-ra-nus" (NOT "urinous") as the pronunciation "preferred by astronomers." Serendipodous 15:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Baloney? why, thank you!

Your points:-

.a) I’ve no objection to discussing pronunciation: my objection was to having a paragraph laying down the law on a point that is at least debateable.

.b) I didn’t know links to talk pages were wrong, so I withdraw that suggestion; though I would have thought indicating there was a discussion on a subject would be a good thing.

.d) I am suggesting that when I did Latin at school I never heard anyone say “urinous”, which I think I would have remembered; which takes us to .c), there isn’t a fixed standard for pronouncing Latin. And, it begs the question that “urinous” is the Latinate form. And anyway, why Latin? It’s a Greek name. If the Romans did say “urinous” then that itself is a mis-pronunciation.

. e) “maniac” is said that way, in “maniacal”; and “miscellany” when it’s “miscellaneous”; I’m not sure what point you’re making, there.

And (f), Yes, I know YOO-ra-nus is preferred by astronomers, (though it still sounds like urinous); but how long has that been the case? Before Voyager? I know when I say “you-rain-us”, I get told “you mean urinous”; Well actually I mean oo-rahn-us, but if I said that I’d just get a funny look. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

e) You said that Yoo-RAY-nus was a valid pronunciation because it echoed "Uranium" and "Uranian". I was saying that if you followed that logic to its conclusion, "maniac" would be pronounced "muh-ny-ac" because it echoed "maniacal" and "miscellany" be pronounced "miss-ul-AY-nee" because it echoed "miscellaneous". 18:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serendipodous (talk • contribs)
Ah! With you;
To return to the beginning, though,I notice that now the IPA details have disappeared; Is it worth re-instating them, putting in a footnote with that source you mentioned, and saying YOO-rah-nus is the pronunciation is preferred by astronomers? Would that resolve this? I can give it a go, if you want. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Reinstated. IT would be better to discuss the issue in the page, rather than in a note. Serendipodous 03:21, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I see you’ve put the paragraph back in; it’s better than it was, but this:-
“The preferred pronunciation of the name Uranus among astronomers is (ūrănŭs),< > with the first syllable stressed, because the penultimate vowel a is short and in an open syllable, and such syllables are never stressed in Latin”
is still implying that YOO-rah-nus is the way it’s pronounced in Latin, which I’d dispute, because the “u” is wrong; it would be OO-rah-nus, or UHR-an-us, if anything:
And this:-
“The alternate pronunciation, [jʊˈɹeɪ.nəs], with stress on the second syllable and a "long a" (ūrānŭs) has become very common, however"
skates over the point that most of the English-speaking world says it that way. Moonraker12 (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
As regards your first point, the sentence gives the rationale for the preferred pronunciation, and I don't think it needs to go any further. As regards your second, how do you know that most of the English speaking world says it that way? Have you done a survey? Serendipodous 20:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Again, you miss my point.
This : “…with the first syllable stressed, because the penultimate vowel a is short and in an open syllable, and such syllables are never stressed in Latin.” is a non sequiter; even if it is correct, "YOO-ran-us" still wouldn’t be the Latin pronunciation because the “u” is wrong.
And yes, I have done a survey, of sorts: I’ve just asked around the room, and 5 out of 5 people said "you-RAYN-us", though one had heard of "YOO-ran-us" when prompted.
So I’ve changed it to something more exact. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


This whole pronunciation issue occurs on every astronomy page, with different conclusions. On the Enceladus talk page, astronomers prefer the English pronunciation over the classical, because
“ενκέλαδος is a Greek word but enceladus is definitely an English word, and is pronounced [ɛnˈsɛlədəs] according to the rules of English orthography”,
And
“Wikipedia should not be prescriptive, but descriptive. We have no business telling people what is correct and incorrect”
Sauce for the goose? Moonraker12 (talk) 11:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

As a coauthor of this article I want to make several points:

1) Wikipedia (at least its part related to Natural Sciences) is a scientific encyclopedia, which means that the pronunciation that is common among astronomers should be treated as the main variant.

2) What public actually says is irrelevant and deserves only a brief mentioning. In addition there is no reliable sources that can be cited to support any statement regarding public prefererences. I think nobody has ever conducted any (published) research into this issue. So I replaced 'colloquially' with 'often'.

3) This issue is actually not very important from the scientific point of view especially for non-native speakers. In other languages pronunciation can be completelly different. In Russian the planet is pronounced [u'ran] (spelled: Уран). Element uranium is spelled and pronounced exactly the same as the planet.

I actually want to stop any further tinkering with this page. The current edition is a reasonable description of the pronunciation and I do not want any wars at this page. Ruslik (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, that's fair enough.
You "want to stop any further tinkering with the page"; ambitious, given the nature of WP, but no, I’m not looking for an edit war either, and yes, the paragraph covers the point well enough as it is. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
PS: "Уран"? Really? Not "Юран"? And uranium is "Ураниум"? It really is only the English who have this problem, isn't it? Moonraker12 (talk) 15:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Uranium in russian is spelled Уран and is pronounced as [u'ran]—exactly the same as the planet. The meaning depends on context. Ruslik (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Enormous argument aside, I see an inconsistency here: "with the first syllable stressed and a short a (ūrănŭs)." This shows the second syllable accented, unless my interpretation is quite off. Yet when I changed the boldface to the first syllable to match the text, it was quickly reverted. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain why the second syllable is bolded while the first is stressed, according to the preceding description. If the boldness was only meant to draw the distinction between the long and short a's, then accent marks are required, especially since the text describes not one but two differences in the pronunciation. Otherwise many people will assume the bolded letter is the accented letter.

Well spotted. Looks like a mistake to me. Fixed. Serendipodous 09:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

I can't get this page to archive. The current archiving system makes no sense. How is it done? Serendipodous 01:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)