Talk:University of Kent

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  1. May 2004 – March 2006

Contents

[edit] Category for students and alumni on Wikipedia

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Kent has been created for all current Kent students and Kent alumni editing Wikipedia. Timrollpickering 20:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From Vision to Reality

I've just finished reading a copy of From Vision to Reality: The Making of the University of Kent by Graham Martin. Over the coming days I'm hoping to expand the history section using the book.

For the record Martin (who died not long after finishing the text) was the first Dean of the Faculty of Natural Science (1964-1973; he was the last survivor of the original Deans) and second Deputy Vice Chancellor (1972-1981). The book is probably as near to an early official history (it was published by UKC and Jo Grimond wrote the introduction) as possible so one may want to question some of the ommissions or coverage.

So far there are two points that I've noted where this article and the book seem at odds are:

  • Not naming Darwin College after Bertrand Russell. According to Martin's account (pages 125-126), the interim college committee had suggested "Becket". When the Senate received the report, they referred the name back and proposed the names "Russell" (who died the day before - Martin thinks this was a coincidence) and "Anselm". The committee still preferred "Becket" but the Senate voted 2:1 for Russell. However the Council rejected the name and referred it back - with a substantial faction feeling that Russell's public image was as a political activist not a scholar and they didn't approve of his politics. "Lord Cornwallis, the Chairman of the Council, was heard to remark that he was quite glad not to have to make a choice between a 'turbulent priest' and a 'turbulent professor'." So as to bring a resolution, it was agreed to drop both "Becket" and "Russell" and conduct a postal ballot of the Senate with seven names - Attlee, Conrad, Darwin, Elgar, Maitland, Marlowe and Tyler. No mention of individual vetoes because of affairs! (And Russell was 97 when he died - just when did this affair occur?)
    • (On a side note, the map in book uses the term "Eliot College Residences" for what was, by 1998 at the latest, called "Becket Court". Does anyone know when this name, and also "Tyler Court", were decided on?)
  • The University nearly closing in 1974 because of SU activity. I'm not sure what this statement means - is it referring to the SU aiming to bring the university to a halt through occupations (some others did lead to a pause in activity in individual buildings) or the University as a whole facing being shutdown because of the antics of the SU? Martin does detail a 1974 dispute over moves to expell a student that saw violent and costly demonstrations, but focuses more on the resultant bad feeling, especially between Faculties (part of the problem was the student was studying - or rather not studying - courses in both Humanities and Social Sciences and Humanities were more rigorous than Social Science in chasing non-attendees and seem to have expected Social Sciences to have been pursuing the student for his absence on that course when they moved to expell him) and with the Senate (who overrule the Humanities Board) rather than the possibility the University could have been shut down.

Does anyone have further information about either the claim of Russell's affair being the reason for the name being blocked or just what fate the University faced in 1974?

Timrollpickering 00:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


My couple of pence. I'm not sure the wranglings over the naming of Darwin College is really suitable for a Wikipedia article, it is rather obscure and focused. If others disagree then fine, but the level of detail you went into above is excessive for the article to my mind, just a mention of what else was considered would be best.
As for the naming of the residential annex beside Eliot College, I can tell you they were called Becket Court from at least 1993. I joined in 1994, and they were definitely called Becket from the year before on the prospectuses I had. Also Tyler Court was always the name for it since when the construction began in 1996 (I think it was), that's the name I've always known for it and I was on campus 1994-1998.
As for the last point, I really don't know anything about that. First I've heard of it. Ben W Bell talk 07:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree there's huge detail above which I wouldn't put in the article but felt it worth summarising here just where the drive for and against "Russell College" came from as it does seem to be at odds with the story of a veto over an affair currently in the trivia and the book does seem hard to find (it doesn't display in an Amazon search for instance). If that story is false then it's probably best to remove it. All four colleges attracted debate over the names so it may be worth a trivia point listing each name considered at some point, especially as some like Anselm did the rounds more than once whilst Becket and Tyler were eventually used. Timrollpickering 09:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to all this, if anyone's interested I wrote a post on my blog about Matin's book. In particular there's a summary of the way the colleges failed to meet the original plan, something that this article (as well as a semmingly inordinate number of others about "collegiate universities" and the like) needs a brushing up on. It'll be the next task I tackle. Timrollpickering 22:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humanities department?

the building housing the humanities department is named Marlowe

I can't recall either a "humanities department" - it's a Faculty - or a single building containing all of it. Just which building is this "Marlowe Building"? Timrollpickering 18:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You know I was curious about that as well, I don't recall a Marlowe building. Humanities subjects are spread all over the campus, well at least they were, with lectures and offices where they can be fitted. Ben W Bell talk 07:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Checking their website, Marlowe building is what was once the sole domain of the Physics building. I'm presuming they still do physics and othe sciences there since it was mainly labs, so it can't be the humanities building. It was still used for sciences when I was in there last year. Ben W Bell talk 07:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The humanities undergraduate offices are located in Marlowe, which is where this probably came from; it is used by several departments. As far as I know, the labs were converted to architecture studios in 2005 and most of the science teaching takes place on the Giles lane annexe. I have philosophy lectures in that building sometimes, so the name change reflects the fact its multi purpose now. Nuge talk 21:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
All the faculty offices are in the Marlowe Building. Anthropology (including the Durrell Institute of Conservation Ecology) and Architecture are permanently housed. Drama is temporarily housed. The Anthropology department reused existing physics labs for genetics, whole organisms, skeletal remains, computational anthropology, ethnobotany, biodiversity research, with separate teaching labs. Most teaching rooms are used by all faculties. Mdfischer 12:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beckett Court opening 1990

I was at the univerity 1989-93 and I can remember some building work near Eliot, but can't remember this opening? Is the date correct?Charliechuck 14:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There's an aerial photo from February 1990 in Martin's book (page 95) which shows some preliminary work going on on the site. It's also shown on the diagram of the campus on the inside back cover, with no indication that it was under construction, though the book's chronology doesn't mention it. But I'd be very surprised if it took more than three years to build. Timrollpickering 12:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorder article?

Looking at this piece agains it feels a bit messy with information that should flow together all over the place and stuff like the coat of arms and the Student Bar being given way too much prominence. Part of this is because of the importance of the colleges in the original set-up and also because some the academic history fits better with the set-up. Some little bits could be moved around, but some larger work may be needed. However I'm not sure I could best do it.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities has a potential model, which aims to be flexible for country specific stuff (see the Talk page for more discussion) - does anyone feel bold enough to try a revamp? Timrollpickering 01:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] University ratings

(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities.)

There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings. Timrollpickering 22:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Student Bar

User:Tsbstudents wishes to add a section of unsourced, unverifiable, and inappropriate content to the section about The Student Bar. It's essentially an informal history of The Student Bar, which probably deserves some mention in the article, but not a long, rambling, informal history. I've removed it 3 times today. Other opinions on it? This is the section in question. Leebo T/C 22:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That section that several users have already been blocked for trying to add and re-add is A) unencyclopaedic, B) so POV it's unbelievable, C) Incorrect tone and the most important one D) Personal attacks. Ben W Bell talk 07:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scrapping the trivia section

This will need to be incorporated into the article. Here's what we've got at the moment, plus some suggestions:

1). Approximately 25% of students are from overseas; 128 different nationalities are currently represented. The female to male ratio is 54 women to every 46 men.

I'm not sure if these are needed - numerous UK universities have more female than male students and umpteen different "nationalities" (and what definition is being used for counting?). But if it should stay then what about a short section on the makeup of the student body?

2). When Darwin opened it had no College Rules at all. Three years later there were three: Thou Shalt NOT Let Off Gas: Fireworks, or Fire Alarms, or Fire Extinguishers. Then the college got a Constitutional Lawyer as Master.

Do we need this one at all?

3). In 1987 an honorary degree was awarded to local writer and TV-programme-maker Oliver Postgate, creator of Bagpuss. Postgate stated that the degree was really intended for his creation, who was subsequently displayed in academic dress. He later painted "A Canterbury Chronicle", a huge piece of art that is displayed in Eliot College.[1]

This started life when Bagpuss turned up on the list of graduates and was moved here. But again does this need to be here at all?

4). In January 2006 smoking was banned from all campus bars except for a small annex of Woody's. Woody's is run by Kent Union, rather than by Kent Hospitality, which runs the four college bars.

Well it's about to be a national smoking ban anyway. But even without that, do we need to detail where you can and can't smoke?

5). Graduation ceremonies were originally held on campus, in, first, Eliot and, then, Rutherford Dining Halls; but as numbers grew were transferred to Canterbury Cathedral. Since 2003, graduates of the University of Kent's Medway campus have had separate graduation ceremonies at Rochester Cathedral in Medway. The Anglican Church's Lambeth Conference has since 1978 been held every 10 years on the university's Canterbury campus.

These two could come under the scope of the university's relationship with the Church - whether this deserves any section is debatable, although given the particular importance of Canterbury within the Anglican Church this deserves specific consideration. Otherwise does the location used for graduation ceremonies warrant mention? And yes the Lambeth Conference is high profile, but is it really of much more significance to the university than a regular huge conference booking every ten years?

Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm minded to start hacking back the trivia in a few days if there are no objections. Timrollpickering 11:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

1) - I think UKC has a much higher than normal overseas contingent. Should probably be put into a section as you say on student makeup, along with the gender ratios.
2) - I'm not even 100% convinced that's even true.
3) - Move the information to the Bagpuss article, doesn't belong in the university article. Every university gives honorary degrees, and they should be mentioned in their articles not the universities.
4) - Not encyclopaedic.
5) - The graduation bit is encyclopaedic I think, but it hosting the Lambert Conference every 10 years should be in that article not the university one. In case people hadn't noticed there are a lot of conferences held each year at the university. Ben W Bell talk 12:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
1). I'm slightly sceptical as I've lost count of the number of HEIs that claim to have one of the highest numbers of overseas students/nationalities on campus (and are rarely precise as to counting methods). That said something on the general make up of the student body would be useful - home/EU/outside EU ratios, full/part time, UG/PG and other stats are usually easy to come by. I don't know if there's been anything done on this, but it would be interesting to see just how true is the belief that most of the students are from London, the Home Counties and the rest of the south east (usually given as the reason for the campus going dead at the weekends). But we'd need sources for it.
2). No idea. 3). & 4). agree. I'll delete these three now.
5). Agree about the conference bookings (it is mentioned on Lambeth Conferences). I'll delete that now. I'm not sure on graduation ceremonies as I'm hard pressed to think of another university article that mentions the venue used, but I'll leave it there for now. Timrollpickering 22:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article refinement

Areas where I think this article can be improved, tidied and/or split:

  1. Some decent information on Medway, either here or perhaps an article at University of Kent at Medway (currently a redirect here). But I know sweet FA about the set-up there.
  2. Possibly move academic dress to a separate page - see Category:Academic dress for some other examples.
  3. Similarly move the list of people to a separate article - maybe List of University of Kent people? (see List of University of Nottingham people)
  4. Maybe a general rearrangement of sections to flow better?

Thoughts? I'll start to make this possible by getting rid of "Ibids" and putting the full reference for each footnote. Timrollpickering 13:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now moved both the academic dress and list of people into their own articles and created a template (Template:University of Kent) to link the many Kent articles & categories.
Two other points that I've noticed:
Kent is one of the few collegiate universities without articles on the individual colleges. I'm not sure if they merit coverage or not, though in earlier years they may have been more significant. In my humble opinion the UK university that Kent is most like in this regard is Lancaster, which has articles for all nine colleges - see Lancaster University#Colleges for the list. If we do go for college articles, Rutherford College is a disambiguation page and Darwin College a redirect to Darwin College, Cambridge (and the link to here uses the text "Darwin College, Kent"). The likes of Rutherford College, Kent may be the best consistent name form.
If we do have individual articles on the separate sites (which may be the best way to keep this article's length down) then naming them could be tricky. The only site which currently has an article is as Brussels School of International Studies, with University of Kent at Brussels serving as a redirect to there. Otherwise University of Kent at Canterbury, University of Kent at Medway and University of Kent at Tonbridge all redirect here. UKM and UKT are the obvious names for the Medway and Tonbridge sites, but I don't even want to think of trying to work out if "University of Kent at Canterbury" can be used for the name of an article about the Canterbury site alone. Timrollpickering 18:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plateglass Universities - a term invented by Michael Beloff

There seems to be some disagreement about using the term 'Plateglass University', based on the assumption that this is intended as a derogatory term. It may help to settle this dispute if we look at the origins of the term. The name 'Plateglass Universities' was apparently first used by Michael Beloff in his 1968 book 'The Plateglass Universities', published only a few years after the 'New Universities' (as they were generally called at the time) had been created. Beloff invents the term "Plateglass Universities" (an obvious companion to the "Redbrick Universities", as the older civic universities were and are known) to describe the 1960s universities - Sussex, York, East Anglia, Essex, Lancaster, Kent at Canterbury, and Warwick, and describes his reasons for using the term:

"I had at the start to decide upon a generic term for the new universities - they will not be new for ever. None of the various caps so far tried have fitted. 'Greenfields' describes only a transient phase. 'Whitebrick', 'Whitestone', and 'Pinktile' hardly conjure up the grey or biscuit concrete massiveness of most of their buildings, and certainly not the black towers of Essex. 'Newbridge' is fine as far as the novelty goes, but where on earth are the bridges? Sir Edward Boyle more felicitously suggested 'Shakespeare'. But I have chosen to call them the Plateglass Universities. It is architecturally evocative; but more important, it is metaphorically accurate."

Beloff has many things to say about the new universities, some critical, but much positive. His aim, he says, is "to provide information about the youngest universities in England to offset ignorance about them in the oldest", and in an Epilogue responding to the student revolts of summer 1968 he concludes with positive comments about the universities, despite the controversy created by some of their students:

"The role of Plateglass in reviving a belief in the need for and virtues of higher education is especially important. Plateglass universities gives the lie to the view that universities are conservative, unchanging institutions. In syllabuses, examinations, teaching methods, administration, discipline, they have taken new initiatives. It seems ridiculous that their promise should be sacrificed because of the irresponsibility of a minority of their members [the student rebels]. All who are concerned with the current situation should remember that students have long protested against the world - it is the duty of graduates to change it."

On this basis, the term "Plateglass University" seems acceptable enough. ThomasL 16:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

I was a bit surprised to see that the list of famous alumni has been moved to another page. I realise that a list of University of Kent 'people' (including alumni) is available from a link at the bottom of the page, hidden in the normally unexpanded University of Kent template, but perhaps we should make this more obvious somewhere within the article itself? At present the article seems to suggest that there are only two well-known University of Kent alumni, one of whom seems to be relatively little-known and perhaps even non-notable in this context (mind you, perhaps I just don't watch enough television). ThomasL 23:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put in a direct link in the article. But to be honest do we need a section about the alumni office, good as they are? It's one sentence on a service most universities have.
As for names cited, I'm not sure Paul Telfer, currently linking to a disambiguation page, is even in the "most famous alumni" range. Alan Davies was probably the most well known as an alumnus when I was at Kent, although this is probably because at the time he gave strong support to Seeds for Africa. The only other notable alumni I heard about were Tom Wilkinson (only because he received an honorary degree at my BA graduation) and Emily Thornberry (not then notable by Wiki standards as she was only the general election candidate in Canterbury in 2001, but she's now MP for an Islington seat), although a good number of others on the list are quite famous in their own right.
I've removed the names altogether as generally I think naming famous alumni is best avoided on university articles themselves, unless the full list of alumni with Wikipedia articles is so short that all can be included. It opens up no end of debate over who is more notable and/or more significant, especially as they cover many different fields and different parts of the world - e.g. who is more notable out of Ann Hercus and Gavin Esler? I suspect someone in New Zealand would have a different answer from one in the UK! Timrollpickering 23:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I suppose that my thought is that most universities on Wikipedia have an alumni list of some sort, but a prominent link to the list is probably good enough. I agree that the section on the Alumni Office isn't particularly informative or necessary. ThomasL 23:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I decided to reinsert the alumni list. We could perhaps cut it down later, but I have to say that I didn't really agree with its complete removal. Having hovered around many University pages on Wikipedia recently, I didn't notice any others that didn't list at least a handful of famous alumni on their main page. Kent doesn't have the problem that Oxford or Cambridge have with massive quantities of famous alumni over centuries (and even Oxford and Cambridge list some on their main page), and people can of course remove and reinsert names in the usual Wikipedia way. The alumni give something of the character of a University, I think, and it is worthwhile naming at least some. But what does everybody else think? ThomasL (talk) 19:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Acronym/Abbreviation nonsense

Okay, so what exactly is going on here. Why is it some believe UKC is an acronym and some not. No one is arguing it's not an abbreviation, since an acronym is a subset type of abbreviation, but what are the arguments against it being an acronym? All definitions of acronym I can find, including the one on Wikipedia, support it being an Acronym. UKC. University of Kent at Canterbury. Can someone explain why this is an issue and what the argument against is? I will not be editing this area again until we have a discussion and agreement on it on this page and I suggest everyone else do the same. So lets have a discussion on this like adults. Ben W Bell talk 03:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

An acronym is a word formed from letters. For example, RADAR is an acronym and stands for ra(dio) d(etecting) a(nd) r(anging), PESOS is an acronym and stands for Photo-Electron Spectroscopy of the Outer Shell. UKC isn't an acronym, it's an abbreviation, UKC isn't a word. —— Ryan (t)•(c) 11:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Acronyms don't have to be read as words in their own rights, that's only one small definition of an acronym. Even the Wikipedia article itself on Acronyms says so. Acronyms can be said as words, and that is a particular type of acronym, but not all acronyms are words in their own right. If it was only that it formed actual words then the famous form of acronym, Three letter acronym wouldn't exist. Ben W Bell talk 12:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This debate is pointless. Just remove both abbreviation and acronym and use term, like is used later in that section. Describing UKC as an acronym or abbreviation has no affect on the article, so let's settle this. —Noetic Sage 15:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)