Talk:University College, Durham

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Good article University College, Durham has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.

Wikipedia:LoCE:In Progress

Contents

[edit] Suggested Additions

Can we put in a "notable alumni" section as Hatfield have one already? I think we should also mention Lumley Castle and the Lumley run. Maybe also the June Ball?

4 June 2006 - I have just added Hunter Davies to the notable alumni - he has a Wikipedia entry of his own (stub) and I tried to make a hypertext link to it, but seem to have failed...

I'm not convinced about the Lumley Run's merits for inclusion in Wikipedia but I agree with your otuhr suggestions. --Strib 10:37, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Making Changes

Removed details of staff and individual members of the College. Removed "Castle Song". These matters seem to be inappropriate for an encyclopaedia entry.

Please do not make major changes to an encyclopedia entry without first engaging in a discussion of the proposal on the talk page. I have reverted the page for the time being. 81.156.177.109 18:19, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oops. Sorry. I suppose this is why newbies are so dislked on the 'net. I just added some stuff on the colleges accomodation.
No, you did well - Be Bold! I think that what the unnamed user at 81.156.177.109 was referring to was jumping straight in with major deletions to a long-standing article (...but don't be reckless) - but still, sometimes that needs to be done. Wikipedia is formed by people making the changes they think are required. Occasionally those changes will be for the worse, which is easy to undo; but if no-one makes changes then the article will never progress towards its eventual, theoretical, perfect state. For what it's worth, I rarely totally reverse other peoples' changes unless they're clearly in bad faith - if someone thinks a change should be made, they usually have a point; so even if edits occasionally do make an article worse, I still find it's usually better to write something new that addresses the previous editor's concerns, rather than just take it back to the state before they got involved. TSP 18:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Who's who section

Could this be made more generic, rather than discuss the current incumbents of the post. This is meant to be an Encyclopedia. Out of the list given, the only person significant enough to the college to be mentioned by way of his own person is John Atkin MBE.

Indeed. It's looking more like a prospectus at the moment.

[edit] GA Review

This article is a current good article candidate. In accordance with the good article criteria, I have reviewed it and put it on a seven day hold. This means that it has problems which prevent it from becoming a GA right now, but problems which should be able to be cleared up within seven days.

Well written: Fail. The article needs copyediting, eg "To the west of the courtyard, is the medieval Great Hall, to the still used as a dining room by the students, was built by Bishop Bek in the thirteenth century." In the head section, Professor Tucker should have his title. Non-notable trivia should be purged, ie the section about Smenergy. On the plus side, the article follows a logical and hierarchical structure, although perhaps the library should come before the 'Student Body', and the 'Undercroft Bar' and 'Castle Society' be subordinated to sub-headings beneath 'Student Body'.

I've had a go at proof-reading this though, to be honest with you, the prose are almsot entirely my own so I'd be more than happy if someone else re-read it - its always more difficult to proof read your own stuff. I've left the bit in about Smenergy for now - it is a defining factor of the bar within Durham. --Robdurbar 10:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It just reads in a bizarre way. You're learning about the history and the buildings etc and then you are told how some of the students in 2006 most like to take their vodka. I would argue that it is non-notable and very unencyclopedic. Chrisfow 11:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I kinda guess it could be called trivia. --Robdurbar 16:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Factually accurate and verifiable: Pass. Most assertions are referenced. One problem though. The Wiki guidelines on referencing state that anything likely to be challenged should be referenced. "For two hundred years this was the largest Great Hall in the United Kingdom; however, it was shortened by Bishop Fox". That's a big claim probably open to counter-claims - and an anachronistic one given that the United Kingdom did not exist until 1800.

Cheeers for the heads up on this one. It was acutally covered by the next reference, but I've inserted it in twice to cover. --Robdurbar 10:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Broad in coverage: Pass. The article covers all the aspects of the college which I would expect it to cover.

NPOV: Fail. Subjective words. eg "Other impressive ... parts of the castle", "The stunning Tunstal Chapel", "a mysterious group of Castle students", "The college has a strong artistic tendency"

Well the Tunstal Chapel is pretty stunning. Removed or re-worded most of these. I hadn't noticed the 'mysterious group' bit... --Robdurbar 10:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Stable: Pass. The article is stable.

Pictures: Fail. The uploader of the Castlecroft logo needs to prove somehow that they own the copyright, so that they have the right to release it into the public domain. The copyright probably belongs to the SU or JCR - even the designer of the logo does not own it if they sold it to the SU/JCR/bar.

Using the logo of the Undercroft is fair use I hope? --Robdurbar 10:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that it is, although I am no expert. I think there is an argument to be made that the use of this image may "replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media" (Fair Use Policy Section 2), since anyone may now use that logo (as Wikipedia content is automatically licensed under GDFL) and they could rip it off in a negative way, or rip it off for their own profit. Policy Section 8: "The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose". Finally, the policy states that the picture must be tagged with the appropriate fair use tag, if you are claiming fair use. Currently, you have claimed the copyright yourself, which is illegal. Chrisfow 11:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I changed the tag because I believed that the uploader intended it to be tagged that way... my impression was that this was normal practice. But I'll remove it anyway. --Robdurbar 16:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


These problems stand in the way of GA, but are easily rectified. Well done so far to all who have contributed, it is a good read, and I hope to come back in seven days (less?) and award GA! Chrisfow 23:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA

Well done for these changes, Rob. I am pleased to elevate this to GA! Chrisfow 14:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

Rob, thank you for your copy edit; here are a few more areas I think need work:

  • As the "Masters" section is basically a list, it should be placed at the end of the article, just before "Notable alumni".
Righty-o --Robdurbar 13:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • "The Lowe Library is the college's library" - Reads as trite. In particular, I'd like to see this section expanded, if you have access to sources.
I'm not sure what other expansion could occur here; perhaps I'll rework it as a subsection, or expand into 'acadmeic resources' section - could then mention one or two other features od the college. Robdurbar 13:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • "the oldest University building in the world, dating back to 1097" - This is backed by two refs, however neither supports the 1097 claim. One states the Uni. building to be the oldest of its kind in the UK, the second in the world. The second makes the first redundant, but you still need to back up 1097.
Researched this more and other sources appear to state earlier than 1097; not sure where that figure came from. The first source only states that it is the oldest in the UK; the second mentions it as the oldest in the world. --Robdurbar 13:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • "Regular JCR meetings are held to discuss and vote on important issues." Maybe remove important, and restructure to include examples..." - held to discuss and vote on issues such as..."
  • "The Castle Society was formed in 1947 by Castle Alumni, as the Durham Castleman's Society" - I've ce'd this, but the meaning is still unclear to me. What's the diff/connection between 'the Castle Society' and 'the Durham Castleman's Society'?
Sorry, claridifed. It changed its name (i.e. was founded under the name of 'Durham Castelman's Society' and later becaem 'Castle Society'. Robdurbar 13:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Obvously, the citation request for "Hornby went on to be a notable antiquarian and priest at York Minster." needs to be met.
Does the stained-glass window not work as a source? It proves he was notable enough for commemoration. Robdurbar 13:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't back up the claim that he was a notable antiquarian. Do you have access to any of the sources listed in his own article. + Ceoil 23:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I will do as of Monday 15th; the stuff could either be removed in the hope that it can be reintroduced, or left and then deleted if not sourced within a week or two. Robdurbar 11:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I have more, but I'll add them in manageable chunks. I do understand the hard work and commitment it takes to bring an article this close to FA, and that peer review can be unsatisfying. But with a little more effort, I think your there. It's just polish from here on in. + Ceoil 02:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Copyedit

I came here in response to a request to the League of Copyeditors. I'll work on the article over the next few days. If you have questions about any of my edits (or have suggestions) please don't hesitate to ask. Raymond Arritt 02:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listed Body

University College is not actually a listed body under the cited act, if you take a close look at the website you will see that it is not included on the list. AlexD 13:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC) Durham Listed Bodies