Talk:University Church of St Mary the Virgin

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A fact from University Church of St Mary the Virgin appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on February 12, 2007.

St Mary's is only one of Oxford's parish churches. It has a relatively small parish consisting mostly of University buildings. Other parishes cover other parts of the city - there is no such thing as Oxford Parish. The city church is St Michael at the Northgate (an adjoining parish), but this is not 'Oxford parish' either.

St Mary's is therefore ONE of Oxford's parish churches and it is true to say that it is the largest of these.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Badger74 (talk • contribs).

J Sherwood's book, from which the 'beautiful spire' cite comes from notes that is it both the University Church AND Oxford (City)'s parish church, Oxford may well have other parish churches in their individual parishes (littlemore et al.). I initially reverted your edit as it had an unsubstianted claim ("is the largest of Oxford's parish churches") and also muddied the clarity of it being the birthplace of the university, I've left it as is (albeit grudgingly - as imho the line was better before) but added {{fact}} for substiantion of the largest parish church claim. --Alf ^melmac 17:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. J Sherwood is wrong, unfortunately. See: [1]. St Mary's Parish is small, and is one of several parishes in the centre of Oxford. As I said the 'city' church is St Michael at the Northgate (it was previously St Martin's, Carfax until that church was demolished at the beginning of the 20th century, and then All Saint's, High Street, before that church was converted into Lincoln College library). The map shows original parishes. It is true that some of these have been amalgamated, and the vicar of St Mary's is (I believe) also responsible for the parish of St Peter in the East (this church is now the Library of St Edmund Hall) and the church and parish of St Cross, Holywell. To the West of St Mary's parish, the parishes of St Martin's and All Saints are now under the auspices of St Michael's, I think. To reiterate, St Mary's is the University Church and a parish church serving the city, but it is not THE parish church serving the city. Sorry this muddies the prose slightly but I feel it important that this fact is presented. 80.46.38.197 11:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you feel strongly about presenting the facts as best can be established, I can see that Sherwood is either wrong or had something lost between mind/manuscript and publication, like "an" or "one of the" before the words "Oxford parish church". We do, however, still need to find a source for the "largest parish church...", I couldn't find anything definitive on the internet and am trawlling through Tyacke and Hibbert's works (the most likely targets) to see if they note it. There is a large amount of history to do yet, Newman, de Brome, the strange position of Oriel being Rector and the Church having a vicar appointed by the college etc., but it would be better to get the 'headliners' out of the way first. Thanks. --Alf ^melmac 12:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this is very much a work in progress, and I intend to add more to this page in time. Do we really need a citation for the largest parish church point? It is a parish church, and of all the parish churches in Oxford it is the biggest - this is clearly observable and measurable. In floor area it must be the second biggest church in Oxford (after the Cathedral), but it is certainly the biggest parish church. Alternatively we can drop largest and simply say it '... is one of Oxford's parish churches...' Badger74 12:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd really like to keep it and cite a reference, if one can be found. I've been working on this wiki long enough to know than sooner or later (but more likely sooner) another editor will either add the {{fact}} or remove the statement. I also reverted your addition of the VCH link as it's usually not good to double up the external links and reference links. --Alf ^melmac 13:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)