Talk:Universe of Kingdom Hearts

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Universe of Kingdom Hearts article.
Article policies
Good article Universe of Kingdom Hearts has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
Featured topic star Universe of Kingdom Hearts is part of the "Kingdom Hearts" series (project page), a featured topic identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
To-do list for Universe of Kingdom Hearts: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Copy edit
  • Add development info
  • Add reception info
  • Cite sources
  • Nominate for FA when ready.
Priority 5  

Contents

[edit] Order of the worlds?

There doesn't seem to be any particular order that the worlds are placed in... If no one objects, I'm going to be doing some editting/rewording and then putting them in the rough order that Sora visits the worlds in the games. Axem Titanium 18:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest instead to order them as they appear in Jiminy's Journals, save that any repeat worlds not be listed twice. How Twilight Town would be handled, though, is up to you, since the actual TT didn't show up until KHII, yet it was listed in the Journal in CoM. T.J. Fuller, Jr. 10:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did a cleanup...

The article REALLY needed a cleanup, since some of it wasn't a NPOV, and some of the sentences could confuse the reader. For some reason though, the things I did to the world paragraphs doesn't show up in the History section. Oh well. Abby724 07:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Idea Wiki link

I removed the link to the list of fan ideas for future KH worlds, forms, etc. Even though the link isn't to a Wikipedia article, Wikipedia is not for speculation (see WP:NOT), and there is no evidence any of these ideas will be used (KH3 hasn't been announced yet). --Coredesat talk. o.o;; 19:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dark Realm?

Sould the dark relm be listed here? Or atleast be in the destiny island page because it is a world connected with destiny island. Logmon1

The realm of darkness is its own plane. I don't think the Door to Light leading to Destiny Islands is that specific, it's just to take Sora and Riku home, like the dark passages subconsciously lead a person to a place they can be safe (i.e. to Traverse Town).—ウルタプ 23:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The Realm of Darkness should be listed, because it is pivotal to the story of Kingdom Hearts. Kamin 978 15:34 , 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I concur. The Dark Realm's importance merits a seperate inclusion, as information on it is all in different places. The same could also be said of Kingdom Hearts (not game title) itself. Ramallan Sparx 18:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewriting most/all of the article

Because it looks and reads terrible. That last edit was by me, but the stupid computer logged me out while I was writing. Axem Titanium 19:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Linking Problems

Hey, does Hollow Bastion have its own page or not? The link at the top of its section that claims to lead to the main article just brings you back to the top of the page. That seems a little pointless... Clevomon 21:07 EST, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

I don't mind a move, but wouldn't it be better as "Worlds of Kingdom Hearts" or "Universe of Kingdom Hearts"? Maybe I'm just being pedantic. ' 21:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose. My OCD was simply trying to preserve the parallel construction of the article titles. Axem Titanium 21:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea.--Tempest115 00:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Which one? Axem Titanium 21:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cosmology

I think it might be able to hold its own as an article.--Tempest115 00:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait before we spin it off. Other "World of" articles (like World of Final Fantasy VIII or Spira (Final Fantasy X)) were meant to hold the sum of its cosmology on one page so it wouldn't splatter onto a bunch of random Wikipedia articles that would be difficult to navigate. Axem Titanium 01:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Apostrophe, regarding the new text from the merger, I can see how some of it can be speculative. But some of it isn't, surely some of the text can be kept. Like the descriptions of what forms it took. Could you maybe copy edit the info to include some of it? Besides, we just need to reference the info. That section only has one reference in it right now. This article is on my list to clean up and reference once we get the main game articles further along. Once we get the info in there it's easier to know what to look for when finding references. (Guyinblack25 14:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC))
I'm shying away from any concise descriptions because the game purposefully leaves the properties of Kingdom Hearts ambiguous. People can't seem to make up their minds about whether the door seen in the first game is Kingdom Hearts or the Door to Darkness, for example. Doesn't help that some critical plot points are found only in Japanese Nomura interviews. ' 01:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Neverland" and "Pride Land"

I may have missed a big discussion topic about this, but all the games thus far have referred to "Neverland" as "Never Land", and "Pride Land" as "Pride Lands". Now, I can understand "Neverland", since that might've been the spelling in the original book, maybe even the film. Simba's home, however, has always been known as the "Pride Lands". In either case, semantics of the book and film versions involving these places should not be carried over here, given that artistic license (what little Wikipedia cares for it, at least in regards to article and preposition capitalization) has named them differently in the subjects being covered (that is, the KH series, not the source materials). T.J. Fuller, Jr. 10:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

But the KH official Strategy Guide refers to Simba's home as the Pride Lands.--Tempest115 14:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the Pride Land - Having recently played KHII, I noticed that the in-game graphic for the name had it as "Pride Land", as did the same graphic in the KHII official strategy guide. However, I also remember them refer to it as the "Pride Lands" in in-text dialog from KHII as well as in content from the guide. The Kingdom Hearts Series Ultimania α ~Introduction of Kingdom Hearts II~ has the same graphic and text that says プライド・ランド (Pride Land). This is just my speculation, but it seems to me that this may have been an error on the Japanese development side that was fixed in localization, except for the title graphic. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 17:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC))
Back when I was editing this article more heavily, I used the title graphic as a reference, rather than dialogue because dialogue tends to be more casual and could be heard either way. I'm pretty sure the title graphics show "Neverland" and "Pride Land" but I'd have to check again. Axem Titanium 19:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Oops - By in-text dialog, I meant the in-game subtitles. It was spelled as "Pride Lands". It stuck in my mind because I remember seeing the first comment above, and after playing that part I noticed the difference between the two. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC))

Couldn't be a translation error? They happen all the time or maybe soembody got lazy?Kou Nurasaka 01:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corridors of Darkness

Hey, a quick question to anybody that remembers. Who are the characters in the games that used the corridors of darkness or something similar to travel between worlds. I only remember a few and knowing more would help me know what to look for in reference sources. This is minor content that will probably amount to one or two sentences, but I'm trying to find content for the "Travel" section, and maybe the "Cosmology" section too. Thanks. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

They're only mentioned in the Secret Ansem Reports and once in Yen Sid's exposition dump. ' 19:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
What about characters that used it or something like it? Just so I know what to look for in interviews and whatnot. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC))
I think Mickey, Ansem (both), Riku, Heartless, Organization XIII...? Axem Titanium 20:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Sora unconsciously used it to get to Traverse Town from Destiny Islands. It's also how he got to Castle Oblivion. ' 04:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom hearts (world)

It;s a world, you go there in both 1 and 2. Jman8088 00:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Any evidence for your assertions? ' 01:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was the world where you fight Xehanort. Or is just the door considered Kingdom Hearts?KrytenKoro 14:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The thing is, the director, Tetsuya Nomura, has left a lot of things in the series somewhat ambiguous because he likes people to speculate about possibilities behind them. The only physical thing in the games labeled as Kingdom Hearts was the heart-shaped moon in The World That Never Was. The doors seem like they are implied to be Kingdom Hearts, but never really stated as such (I may be interpreting the dialog wrong, but I think it's meant to be ambiguous). As far as what's behind the door, your guess is as good as mine. Anyway, without proper sourcing, we can't really state anything without it sounding like original research. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC))
The games can't seem to make up their mind on what the door is. Secret Ansem Report 8 says "the King, who had dived into the realm of darkness, worked with the Keyblade-wielding hero to close the door to Kingdom Hearts from the realms of both darkness and light". The character files call it a path into the realm of darkness, and there are repeated mentions of Riku and Mickey being stuck in the realm of darkness after sealing the door. Chain of Memories has the line "You and I have seen it! The far-off, welcoming light inside the door to darkness... The light of Kingdom Hearts". We know the door's not Kingdom Hearts itself, at least. ' 17:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article review

I have taken on the task of reviewing the article Universe of Kingdom Hearts nominated by Guyinblack25 for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. A full report of the review will be posted when the review process has been completed. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. - .:Alex:. 21:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article report

  1. Writing: PASS - The article is well written and complies with MOS guidlines.
    (a) prose:
    (b) meets MOS guidelines:
  2. Factual accuracy and verifiability: PASS - Material likely to be challenged is sourced by quoting in game dialogue. There is no original research.
    (a) provides references to sources used:
    (b) cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged:
    (c) contains no original research:
  3. Broadness of coverage: PASS - The article is comprehensive and does not go into unnecessary detail.
    (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic:
    (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details:
  4. Neutrality: PASS - The article is written from a neutral point of view and is not found to be biased in any form.
  5. Stability: PASS - The article is stable and there is no evidence of recent edit wars.
  6. Images: PASS - The images are fair use but have been provided a sufficiently detailed Fair Use Rationale. The images are very appropriate to the subject discussed in the article.
    (a) images are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status:
    (b) non-free images meet the criteria for fair use images and are labeled accordingly:
  7. Overall: PASS - The article meets all of the good article criteria and will be promoted to GA-status.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. - .:Alex:. 10:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the article looks pretty good. There are a few formatting issues (br clear is unnecessary if you are alternating image alingment) and the reception/criticism should be expanded and placed in its own section, but it's a solid effort. — Deckiller 12:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I also recommend reducing the fair use total to nine or so; the fair use users tend to prune articles with fair use images in excess of ten. — Deckiller 12:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Header and In-universe problems

The header has a few sentences which seem to be talking about the series itself, not the "universe of" - for example, the "The Kingdom Hearts games have met with positive receptions and sales, as well as receiving several video game awards. One such award was "Best Art Style/Direction" in IGN's 2003 list of "Best Looking Games on PS2".[1] As of December of 2006, the Kingdom Hearts series has shipped over 10 million copies worldwide, with 2.0 million copies in PAL regions, 3.0 million copies in Japan, and 5.6 million copies in North America.[2][3]"

I can understand where it's talking about the reception of the worlds themselves, but the sentences about how the series has done seem a bit off-topic.

Also, there is the traditional in-universe writing for "Heartless", "Nobody", "Keyblade", "Destiny Islands", and "Disney Castle". For example, Disney Castle's section should include stuff like how it was unplayable in the first game, but customer demand led to its inclusion in the second/third.

That's the only problems I can see, though. Is there anything I can do to help this article become FA?KrytenKoro 14:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, I'd forgotten about the world descriptions after it reached GA. The sentences about the series were to just give a quick overview of the the series' reception. Also, the "Art Style" award is linked to the graphics of the game which is linked to the reception of the world.
The Heartless/Nobody info is relatively new and is still a work in progress. Personally I'm content to leave this as GA for now, but if you have any ideas to improve the article go for it. I know that we need more information regarding reception. The article has been peer reviewed at the Video games Project, but could probably use a peer review from non-gamers. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Keyblade Discription Correct?

On the Bio for the Keyblade it states that the Keyblade is the only weapon capable of destroying nobodies/heartless. Isn't that wrong? Cloud, Squall, and maybe Yuffie, Riku (when he had the dark wing sword) all these people can kill the heartless I know for fact. I'm not sure about Nobodies but I think that was the invasion of Hallow Bastion (Radiant Garden) when Squall and company helped out. not to mention the guest party member as well as Goofy and Donald. If anyone agrees then we should cahnge it but its your calls. Kou Nurasaka 01:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Saix says so and what he says is canon. Seems to be a retcon of the nature of Heartless and the Keyblade. Axem Titanium 13:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Other characters have said so in the series as well, I believe Leon said the same thing in the first game about the heartless. But if only Sora was the only one in the battle party that could defeat the heartless then the gameplay would be quite different than what it is now. The other thing to consider is that maybe the keyblade is the only thing that can release the corrupted heart. Either way I'd chalk this up to the developers' need to make workable and enjoyable gameplay. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
I can't seem to find a specific mention of the Keyblade being the only thing that can destroy Heartless. Axel and Saïx say that the Keyblade releases the hearts inside the Heartless, but nothing else. Leon just says "The Heartless have great fear of the Keyblade." I'll remove it for now until we can source it. ' 15:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
":Saix says so and what he says is canon." - the guy who has a reputation for toying with people is going to be believed unconditionally? WTH?! This is exactly what the in-universe guidelines forbid!KrytenKoro 18:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not because a specific character said so, it's because it is in-game dialog which tells the story. We're not taking into account his personality or anything of the sort, like you said that would be against guidelines. Saïx said so because the director made him say it. Besides, the content was removed because we can't find proper citation for the statement. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
Whether he said it or not, he could easily be lying. It is absolutely foolish to take a fictional character's word as truth, even in the fictional world he is describing - at best, the Jiminy Memo can be trusted as completely honest, but even then...we should only take what the creators say about the fictional world as "absolutely true" - anything less, and we're being silly.KrytenKoro 23:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Whether he was lying or not is not really the issue in this case. Unfortunately, whether or not it's true is not an issue either. Per WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Regardless, the statement has already been removed, so it's not really an issue anymore. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
I get that the specific line is no longer an issue, but the same kind of faulty usage is still in a lot of places in the KH articles - yes, verifiability — for out-of-universe sources. The in/out-universe guidelines for fiction say that "Using throwaway comments or jokes as a source of information." is one of the main problems; it used to say that taking character's words at face-value was incorrect, but the whole article's been reorganized and rewritten - this is a similar thing, though; the characters are not always omniscient and honest, and we must accept that.KrytenKoro 00:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think I see your point now. Forgive me for playing devil's advocate with regard to your statement, but by the logic that the video game character could be lying basically rules out almost every use of video game quotes on Wikipedia as a reference. I think the current phrasing of the guideline was made somewhat ambiguous to allow for reasonable judgement on the editor's part. If you feel that the current use has been a problem on Wikipedia you may want to bring it to the attention of the Video game Project. We've tried to use reasonable judgement for the use on this page and have tried to stay within the guidelines of avoiding in-universe descriptions. Although, after looking over the article again, I do now see some new areas to improvement upon. Thank you for the feedback. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC))
Oh no, I'm not saying we can't use quotes as references - we just need to make it clear to the reader that it is a quote, not an ironclad claim - for example "Saix claimed blah blah blah", rather than "blah blah blah is the absolute truth". Does that make sense?KrytenKoro 13:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes it does, that is along the lines of some of the tweaks that came to mind in order to improve the article. I'll try to get around to it after I finish up on some of the other KH articles. Thanks gain. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Reception and criticism?

I recommend combing media reviews for critical response on the worlds. Perhaps stuff like the graphics, design, style, etc. — Deckiller 03:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Worlds within the "in-between realm"

I'm new to Wikipedia in general and I'm not sure at what points I need to check with other editors, so here goes, anyway... So, under Cosmology, it mentions the various realms in Kingdom Hearts, and more specifically, the existance of an "in-between realm" where select worlds are found. I found an interview with Tetsuya Nomura that has some information on the worlds in between. I want to include some of what I found in thsi interview and include it into that section of the article. Would that be objectionable to anyone?
One other question though. I was going to source the interview, but although the original interview is from an official source, the translation into English is not. Is it still usable as a source? How should I approach that? --Falcon 23:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about the Another Report interview? ' 00:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I should say go for it and we'll help you format it. Axem Titanium 05:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was looking at the interview from Another Report. Or the translation of it, anyway. I'll go ahead and work on that then, later today.--Falcon 14:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The information you added seems better off in the sections for the individual worlds. Yen Sid's Tower and the others aren't all that relevant to the universe as a whole. ' 02:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I can agree with that. I'll move the related information to its respective sections, but in order to keep it from sounding redundant, feel free to add to it, reword it, whatever may be necessary...--Falcon 14:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the Keyblade section

Should Mickey's dark realm keyblade and Riku's Way to Dawn be mentioned in that section at all? I think it's relevant to note that there are multiple keyblades, not just the one Sora wields.HadesDragon 03:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The new worlds

Should the new information from the trailers be mentioned? Perhaps not the new worlds, but at least the scenes in Olympus Colosseum and Destiny Islands? Yemboy42 00:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, we have to ask ourselves, "how does that benefit the article?" It's nice to know and it's a cool bit of trivia, but simply stating that without any source is number 1, not really allowed on Wikipedia because it falls under speculation and original research, and number 2, it doesn't really help expand the information of the article. I'm not saying we can't have it in, but at this point with none of the new games released, I think we're jumping the gun. Let's wait and see, and even if it is added in before the release, it will need proper sources, not just saying that it was in a magazine; see Talk:Organization XIII#The Fourteenth Member... for a similar discussion. (Guyinblack25 talk 13:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC))
So what's the point of the whole article? If magazine's are not valid sources, then the games themselves are no better. I understand completely that we should NOT speculate or anything similar to it, but I think that simply stating that Olympus Coliseum and Destiny Islands are set to appear in upcoming games is absolutely fine. It's not speculation, and it has been confirmed in a screenshot of the game itself. If that's not enough, then we might as well delete all the articles to do with Kingdom Hearts, since screenshots are just as valid as the games themselves. Stating that worlds based on Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, now THAT would be speculation, because it hasn't been confirmed whether or not they ARE those worlds. Jienum 14:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Hyperbole does not really help your argument. I would recommend mentioning it on the respective game's article instead of here. It would be more relevant and less trivia-y. Axem Titanium 14:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
That and no source was provided. I think the misunderstanding here is we may have different definitions of speculation. You know it's true because you saw the article scan. I know it's true too, because I saw the same scan, it has Master Xehanort and Ven in what looks like the front area of the Coliseum. But the readers of the article don't know it's real because there's no source provided. Because of that, Wikipedia deems that as speculation and original research, and that is the definition we have to follow. Simply citing a magazine scan without adding a reference is unfortunately not citation. It would be easier that way, but on Wikipedia, the burden of proof lies on the editor adding the content. The magazine is a valid source, but what magazine is it? What issue? When was it published? What was the title of the article? etc. If you want to add it in to the Birth by Sleep article, go ahead, it could expand the "Plot" section a bit. But putting it in requires proper citation. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC))

[edit] World names

FYI- I just removed the Japanese text and translations of most of the world names. The main reason was because most of the titles were originally in English. I saw no reason to keep them simply because the game was originally in Japanese, and most of the world names were katakana translations of the original English name. This basically applied to the Disney worlds, I left the Japanese text on the original worlds created by Square. This was done in the clean up of the Characters of Kingdom Hearts article also, but I think we had forgotten how it was done in this article. It's all in one edit in case it needs to be undone, but let's talk about it first beforehand. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Universe names

Most works of fiction have universe names. Like the buffyverse, daisyverse, and the view askewniverse. Shouldn't this have one. It would make the page name easier to find and shorter. I was thinking Kingdomverse, or soraverse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mugatu3333 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Those names exist because the fandom came to a general consensus over the name and the directors and creators have accepted them. Any name we create for the Kingdom Hearts universe would be WP:OR. Axem Titanium (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh sorry. Your right

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mugatu3333 (talk • contribs) 07:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom Hearts and charity

A realworld Keyblade was sold on eBay in November 2007 with profits donated to Child's Play.[1][2] Should this information be added to the article or is it considered trivial? I find it interesting and maybe this could help broaden the article's scope for a potential FA nomination (eventually). FightingStreet (talk) 22:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think what would help make this more notable is the amount that went to charity. Plus this might be better suited for the series article. This article has actually been on my list to clean up and copy edit for a while now. To be honest, I don't know if this could ever get to FA, maybe after the three new games come out, more info will circulate. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC))