Talk:Universal reconciliation

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[edit] Second Great Awakening - please provide source

This statement is moved here, until a source for it is provided:

and became popular on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening

What is the source of this statement? To my knowledge, the prominent preachers like Finney were decidedly against universal reconciliation (see, e.g., Finney and Universalism at Google), and there was also theologically not much in common between the liberal New England theology where there definitely existed universalim influences (e.g. Emerson and Harvard) and the second awakening denominations like Baptists and Churches of Christ which are sure neither liberal nor professing universal reconciliation.

There have been a few groups at the fringes of the second awakening professing universal reconciliation (some Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Science), but that does not mean the idea was overall popular.

I found one mentioning of universalism related to Second Awakening, there it meant not universal reconciliation but that everyone has the chance to get saved - in distinction from the Calvinist double predestination of First Awakening. Irmgard 10:10, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't write the sentance in question, but I assume it relates to mormons, who beleieve everyone has the opportunity to be saved in the second awakening, but that the wicked will choose to reject God yet again, prefering eternal damnation. Thats not exactly universal reconciliation ;) Sam Spade 15:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Looks to me that statement is somewhat lacking source and verifiability... I'll move it here, until the matter is cleared up. --Irmgard 19:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] removed lists

I removed the list of Bible quotes and quotes from notable people. We should be able to attribute these through reliable sources that report on them. I have moved them to User:Vassyana/universal salvation, so they are available for reference. Vassyana 14:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-automated review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Vassyana 02:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section

I've removed the section that discussed the linguistic debate. It was a series of dictionary entries. It can be found here. We need to report what verifiable information reliable sources say about the discussion, not simply report dictionary definitions. Vassyana 21:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not then just remove the 'Definitions'. Is it that you don't like the structure of how it is written? The article in "Christianity" provides definitions in it's explaination of Christian Love "Agape" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Love The rest is verifiable, just needs more references.StudentoftheWord 22:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It's good brainstorming fodder for a proper section. To be sure there is good information in there, which is why I preserved the section in a workspace for everyone's reference. Let's focus on making this article better. Vassyana 18:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


I removed the Biblical Translation information

Supporters of the Universal Reconciliation doctrine make a claim that the Bible, when properly translated, supports the universalist position.
Those who are binitarian, such as the Living Church of God, claim that while the offer for salvation will be clearly made to everyone, either in this age or the age to come, and that nearly all will accept it (such as 99.9% of those that ever lived). They differ from other univeralists in that they believe that the Bible shows that some few will be condemned. And while they sometimes cite errors of translations, they hold that there are hundreds of scriptures that support the view of a clear universal offer of salvation.
It has been difficult to assess the quality of the arguments and counter-arguments for either position, as the subject is not a focus of mainstream scholarship, and methods of Bible translation remain controversial on both sides.

The section was left without reference or citation since June, since the individual or individuals who posted it original did not come back, I have moved it to discussion for further research. Thanks for the understanding █►Student Of the Word◄█ 05:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Modern Movement information for the same reason I removed the Biblical Translation information. It has been tagged for not having reference or citation. It has been moved to discussion for further research.

The post-enlightenment, universalist movement led to the formation of the Universalist Church of America, which later merged in 1961 with the American Unitarian Association to form the Unitarian Universalist Association. However, because Unitarian Universalism is officially creedless, no member of that denomination is required to believe in the doctrine of universalism. Many Anglicans also adhere to a universalist doctrine.
Early Universalists in North America include John Murray and Thomas Potter in 1770 . The story goes that God told Potter that he was to go and rescue the one swimming from a boat that had hit a sandbar and that this person would be the one he was waiting for. Murray preached to Potter's neighbours and the word spread like wildfire.
Hosea Ballou, who is sometimes called an ultra-universalist, is often recognized as the great theologian of American Universalism, having written thousands of sermons as well as essays, hymns and treatises. Ultra-universalism is the belief that all sin is directly punished by the consequences in the sinner's own life. No further recompense being necessary after death, every soul is directly reunited with God in Heaven. The more common, and less extreme version of the Universalist doctrine is that Hell does indeed exist and many souls may end up there, however, Hell is not a realm of eternal punishment. Instead God continues to care for the souls in Hell until, eventually, God's infinite, patient love will outlast the sinner's ability to resist. When, at last, the sinner who had turned away from God turns back to the God who had never turned away, the sinner will be removed from Hell to enjoy the salvation God had always intended for all creation.

Let us get some references in there so we can return it back to the article. Thanks. █►Student Of the Word◄█ 05:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The material you removed on Murray and Ballou constitutes basic history of the Universalist denomination. The article is grossly incomplete without it. References for the statements you removed regarding John Murray, Hoseah Ballou, and the Universalist Church in America, are easily documented with citations to any standard text on Unitarian Universalist history, including David E. Bumbaugh's Unitarian Universasalism: A Narrative History (Meadville Lombard 2001), and Mark W. Harris, Historical Dictionary of Unitarian Universalism (Scarecrow Press, 2004). In the Historical Dictionary you can find an entry for John Murray at pages 340-342, for Hosea Ballou at pages 38-40, and for the 1961 merger of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church of America to form the Unitarian Universalist Association at pages 485-87. A web page on Rev. Hosea Ballou maintained by the Unitarian Universalist Historical Society: http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/hoseaballou.html Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 07:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A category for Christian universalists?

I think it would be good to create a category for Christian universalists which the articles on such people could be tagged with. Currently, some of them are in the Universalists category, but Christian universalism is distinct enough that I think it could use it's own category, which would be listed beneath the more general term as well. Any thoughts, objections? Jacob1207 05:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This would be best raised at WikiProject Christianity. Vassyana 21:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Christian Universalists section created. Must be distinctive for Christian Universalists or it will be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by StudentoftheWord (talk • contribs) 22:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the parts on Catholicism and Cardinal Murphy O'Connor:

Now, despite my disagreement that what Cardinal O'Connor said about Salvation is in line with Catholic teaching, I believe he said it. So my problem with this is the site on which the article is found. It links to a Sedevacantist site. Sedevacantism believes that the post-Vatican II Church is in heresy and that there is no valid Pope at the moment.

So my suggestion is that we find a new source for those comments he made. A less biased one. Sion 21:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed the sentence, as it was false and, in fact, Cardinal O'Connor was not saying that in the interview. Hell might even be empty, but the catholic view is that it is, at least, open to people that reject God. i.e., it is impossible that apocatastasis could fit roman catholic canon. It is important not confusing a very wide view of universal atonement with universal reconciliation (in fact, this issue has already been very discussed). 161.116.80.71 20:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sentence Changed █►Student Of the Word◄█
Undoing a change should be justified with arguments. In this case, Universal Reconciliation has a very specific meaning, which is reconciliation for all mankind and atonement for all sins as stated. Cardinal O'Connor's just says that there are non-christians that will possibly go to heaven

Q: So we shouldn't be surprised if we were to meet in heaven someone who was a Muslim or an atheist on earth? A: I hope I will be surprised in heaven... I think I will be.

which is not the same as claiming that everyone will go to heaven. In particular, practicing a wrong religion may not be condemned, but Cardinal O'Connor is not excluding (in that text) that unregretted criminals who also actively reject God may go to hell. In conclusion, strictly speaking the sentence is false and should be rewritten to be factually accurate, or removed.Oriolpont (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
REMOVED since it has nothing to do with Universal Reconciliation but Hell. Which there is already a catagory for.

[edit] Existence of Hell

Hell is defined by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph 1033):

'We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." '

In the words of Pope John Paul II, "The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".[1] An earlier catechism, however, describes the suffering of those in hell in more traditional terms, as fiery "punishment" rather than as "self-exclusion" from God.[2]

The idea of hell as a place, in traditional Catholic circles, has been promoted in recent years by the publication of the purported visions of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima, Portugal in 1917. Mary is supposed to have revealed a vision of hell as a "great sea of fire."[3] Many Catholics point out that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church does not require Catholics to give credence to any private revelation, though the vision has been declared worthy of belief. It is also suggested that these visions (if true) are using imagery that uneducated people might understand (the seers of Fatima were peasant children). —Preceding unsigned comment added by StudentoftheWord (talk • contribs) 20:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early History

"Four of the six theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism, and only one supported eternal damnation. Additionally, theological thought appears more varied before the strong influence of Augustine, who forcefully denied universal salvation."

This really needs clarification and citation. Asd28 03:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The citation for the six theological schools of thought is supported ^ The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96; retrieved April 29, 2007. “In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”

The Augustine phrase needs reference. █►Student Of the Word◄█ 23:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What Jesus had to say on the matter

I am surprised that the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not mentioned anywhere in the article or in discussion of the subject. Surely this parable is amoungst the foremost of scriptual indications that there will be universal reconciliation? The Parable of the Prodigal Son is another scriptural source that comes to mind. 203.113.232.209 (talk) 09:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)