Talk:United States national men's ice hockey team

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If someone can find their final standing in the 1988 olympics that'd be great, they didn't make the medal round, that's all I know, and I'm tired. Maybe I'll find it tommorow, but now my battery is about to run out. Kevin Rector 03:40, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] NPOV issue re: Ryan Miller?

"The USA is not expected to medal in Torino 2006 unless goalie Ryan Miller is somehow activated and made the starting goaltender."

This seems awfully subjective to me. Sure, I too would rather see Miller on the active roster instead of on the taxi squad, but to say that the US' medal chances hinge on him screams of fanboyism.

24.184.39.98 02:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Heh, yes yes, I do agree with 24.184.39.98, that is fanboyish Bert (^_^)

Be Bold! zellin t / c 16:54, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

Are the flags supposed to be where the players were born or where the players attended college? If the former, than Rick DiPietro's flag needs to be changed to Maine since he was born in Lewiston, Maine. Kntrabssi 01:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...nhlpa, nbcolympics.com list him in Lewiston. Anyone know where the dicrepancy came from? ccwaters 15:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


Also, the flag next to John Tortorella's name is Florida's. While he is coaching a team in Florida he is from Massachusetts. Go 'Bolts!! Asatruar (talk) 22:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hockeyusafederation.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hockeyusa.PNG

Image:Hockeyusa.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

American men's national hockey team → United States men's national hockey team — American is ambiguous. Other articles in Category:National sports teams of the United States begin with USA or United States, not American —Neier 07:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Support as nominator. Neier 07:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from American men's national hockey team to United States men's national hockey team as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 06:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Moved back. Look at the other national hockey team articles. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move request again, with all other countries involved

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


American men's national hockey team → United States national men's hockey team — see below —Neier 05:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Most national teams in Category:National sports teams are named such as Country Name national sport team. Three exceptions have been noted – the teams in Category:National ice hockey teams, Category:Women's national ice hockey teams, and Category:National bandy teams, where an adjectival form of the nation is used in place of the proper name. Besides the inconsistency with other sports, it can also lead to ambiguity (American is not exclusive to the United States) etc. The United States article was recently brought here, and moved with no objections; but, the move was soon reverted in order to match the rest of the ice hockey teams. I maintain that changing the ice hockey and bandy teams to match the rest of the sports in Category:National sports teams (including large categories such as Category:National basketball teams, Category:Davis Cup teams, and Category:National football (soccer) teams) is more important. For some of the more well-populated national categories, I've linked to the nation's encompassing national team category below, for more references. I dislike group nominations; but, in light of the move/revert that recently happened, this is the only way to resolve the naming issue as a community. -- Neier 05:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support as nomination. Neier 05:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per nom to move all teams. Changing the adjective by a noun helps to avoid the politically incorrect ambiguity. German team is not necessarily composed entirely of ethnic Germans but it is still a team of Germany. Same, for Russia, Ukraine, etc. --Irpen 06:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose as people use the adjectives in their normal speech. The proposal just sounds akward. -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Irpen, also keeps consistency with other national team articles. T Rex | talk 12:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Earl Andrew. I think the new way is far to cumbersome and awkward. If anything I think the other sports should be changed to match the ice hockey approach. --Djsasso 18:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose In the international hockey tournaments I've seen, that's how they're described. GoodDay 18:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Earl Andrew, Djsasso, and GoodDay. Kaiser matias 19:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Consistency with other pages is important. I believe that noun form is relatively common, even if the adjective form is also common. For example, Hockey Canada throughout their web site uses phrases such as "Team Canada" or "Canada's National Men's Team". Other examples: [1] [2]. Although I didn't look too extensively, I didn't see any times where Hockey Canada used the adjective form to describe the team. -- JamesTeterenko 19:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Further to my comment: How about using the possessive form of the noun: Canada's national men's hockey team ? -- JamesTeterenko 19:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I would change my oppose to support if the versions were what JamesTeterenko suggests. But I definately don't like the original suggestion. --Djsasso 19:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose, I might support JamesTeterenko's idea but not the original. --Krm500 19:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support for JamesTeterenko's alternate, oppose the original proposal. I know that the proposal would add consistency in naming, but I really don't like the use of a bad precedent as an argument in favour of a change. "Canada men's..." is simply very awkward to read and say. I would prefer to leave the names as they are, but if we change to a possessive variant of the "formal" title, that would be acceptable to me. Resolute 19:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • To add as well, the concern that not every German team player would be an ethnic German doesn't really wash with me. A team is a representative of the nation it is playing for. So while an individual might have a different heritage, the team itself is of the nation it plays for. So, it is the German team, not the Germany team. Resolute 19:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I was thinking the exact same thing. Just because your ethnicity is not German that does not mean your nationality isn't. So that arguement is completely baseless. I would prefer it to stay as it is but would support James's alternate if the /need/ was there to change it. --Djsasso 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Dainius Zubrus played for Russia in the World Cup of Hockey in 2004, but his ethnicity is not Russian and his nationality is not either. T Rex | talk 20:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
          • He has Russian citizenship (a requirement to play for a team in an IIHF competition) so therefore his nationality is Russian. Note that you can have more than one nationality. Just like Petr Nedved played for Team Canada at the Olympics. --Djsasso 20:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
            • Well, I would consider citizenship and nationality different things. However, Nedved and Zubrus represent Canada and Russia respectively internationally. So when they are on that team, they are of those nations. Resolute 20:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
              • Either way I think we are both getting at the same thing. --Djsasso 20:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I haven't looked at other sites, but USA Hockey does not use the term "American". Specifically, please see page 269 of this pdf, which lists the "2007 United States Mens National Team", as well as all of the group's press releases. We should be focussed on using the real names of things, and not nicknames which may or may not be used by the team and which may or may not be easy to say. Neier 22:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually is not the standard when naming articles to use the name most commonly known by? I do believe it is and if it is then it would be the American Men's National Team. --Djsasso 22:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
      • You would be referring to WP:NC#Use common names of persons and things. I can't find any google search (that excludes wikipedia) which has any combination of "American ...." beating "United States ...." in hit count. For the exact title's we're debating, the counts are 8 and 9, so not a whole lot to go by. "American hockey team" gives 966, while "United States hockey team" gives 10,600. Adding "national" in the title (the current and proposed title, except without "men's") gives a whopping 9 results for American national hockey team, and 840 for United States national hockey team. - Neier 22:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
        • But that falls into the category of you can't make all decisions based on google searches. In this instance especially I don't know a single person that would call it the United States National Team compared to the American National Team....In almost every newscast you will hear the second. In common everyday use you will almost always hear the second. --Djsasso 22:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
      • No, not all decisions can be made using Google; but, when it comes to proving the popularity of a particular term, I don't know of any better way. Is there any reliable evidence that supports the current names? In the US team's case, Team USA, or the Americans are probably more used on the newscasts anyway (be it wrt hockey, basketball, or whatever sport they happen to be showing), since they already have the context (the video), and don't have to use different names to distinguish a basketball team from a hockey team like we have to do in an encyclopedia. Neier 22:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - another point to consider is that when scores are written out in a newspaper, or on TV, etc, the team names are never "German" vs "French", or "Chinese" vs "American". The scores reported are always "Germany" vs "France", "China" vs "United States", etc. Why should wikipedia be any different? Neier 04:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - there is no good reason why (ice) hockey should be the lone exception in Wikipedia for national sport team article names. There is a good reason why football et. al. use the "Country national sport team" naming convention, and that is because the adjectival form for many countries is awkward or unknown. Would you know to look at Sammarinese national football team instead of San Marino national football team? It's also easy for mistakes to be made - Kazakhstanian national bandy team is incorrect.
    I also have another good reason for these articles to be renamed - it would then be feasible to use a template like Template:ih and Template:ih-rt for tournament results articles, similar to {{fb}} for football, {{bk}} for basketball, {{cr}} for cricket, {{ru}} for rugby union, {{vb}} for volleyball, {{fh}} for field hockey, {{davis}} and {{fed}} for tennis, etc. These two templates (plus another pair for women's teams) could replace all the individual templates found in Category:Ice hockey team templates (and probably many more uncategorized). Andrwsc 06:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Support per nom and Andrwsc - PeeJay 22:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per Andrwsc —MC 00:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support -Ulla Flag of Sweden 22:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:
  • British national ice hockey teams should be moved to United Kingdom nationial ice hockey team. T Rex | talk 10:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The consensus was for these articles to be moved to the noun form (e.g. United States men's national hockey team). I will perform all the moves that require administrative powers, but I will leave the ones where the target is a red link above. This is only out of laziness and does not indicate that they should not also be moved likewise. --Stemonitis 09:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The easy-but-tedious moves to the (former) red links are completed. Neier 15:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)