Talk:United States Bullion Depository

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[edit] Inspection by DAR?

I vaguely recall that many years ago, a group of little old ladies, possibly from the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) was permitted annually to enter the vault under supervision to "check" on the gold. This went on for a number of years, but sometime during WWII, the practice was ended, and never begun again. Anybody able to corroborate? <smiley>

By act of Parliament the British Crown Jewels cannot leave British soil, so they can never have been held at Fort Knox. They were instead buried at a secret location.

[edit] What I did expect to find here

Some information about how the Gold in the Fort Knox Bullion Depository is connected to the U.S. currency (or rather some link to another article with this information).

I think that in former times the value of the gold was supposed to be equal to the US$ in circulation. This was changed at some time, as far as I vaguely recall.

In other words, I believe that the article should not only explain what is stored at Fort Knox, and how it's stored, but also why it's stored there (and how this changed over the years). The current article text deals (IMHO) more with the "mechanical" aspects of "Fort Knox", while the economical/finacial meaning of the Fort Knox Bullion Depository seems to be lacking. --Klaws 12:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Still

Bill Still claims in his documentary film The Moneymasters that the gold in Fort Knox was shipped to Europe. He cites as part of his evidence the fact that a full audit of the gold has not been performed for many years. Maybe someone else could coroborate or refute this.

Note from reader: After recently watching this documentary, what I took from it is that no thorough audit of the gold reserve had been performed, but that the gold was not necessarily shipped to Europe. The suggestion that the gold is actually still guarded by the American taxpayer, but owned by foreign interests is a possibility.

[edit] What transfer?

The transfer needed 500 rail cars and was sent by registered mail, protected by the Postal Inspection Service.

This paragraph, due (most likely) to an edit, is now badly lacking context. Transfer of the gold initially? Transfer of the Magna Carta? What? It needs citation in any case. Any guesses? drseudo (t) 05:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Present map image at the end

Either one works for me (I didn't add it initially). Comments solicited between the two last versions SBHarris 07:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gold and coin holdings Section

I think the neutrality and, and factually of the 'Gold and coin holdings' section needs to be checked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.17.24 (talk • contribs)

It might help if you'd mention the things which struck you as non-neutral and maybe unfactual. What don't you like? SBHarris 23:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] guards ammo

i have heard (from my math teacher) that the guards only have 3 bullets, and that if someone is there, they will just fire all 3 in the air and wait for the army to come. anyone else hear anything like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.101.39 (talk) 10:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Does your math teacher have any sources for that? Regardless, that sounds pretty absurd. --V2Blast 21:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Plagiarism?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/fort-knox-depository.htm

Compare the article's section on the blast doors to the above URL

Article: "No single individual is entrusted with the combination to the vault. Various members of the Depository staff must dial separate combinations known only by them."

URL: "The vault door weighs more than 20 tons. No one person is entrusted with the combination. Various members of the Depository staff must dial separate combinations known only to them."

I don't know precisely what the standard this community employs for judging plagiarism but a proper citation to the URL or the shared upstream source seems in order.

BradDixon 13:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conspiracy theory merge

Fort Knox has a conspiracy theory section that should be merged into the conspiracy theory paragraph in this article.--Dcooper 14:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Only if the entire Fort Knox article is merged. Otherwise, the conspiracy theory bears mentioning in both articles. -Eep² 03:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
  • all of the conspiracy theory entries relate more to the gold vault than the Army installation. I say they belong here with possibly a link from the FK page to the section here. --rogerd 03:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
So long as the Fort Knox article mentions conspiracy theories about the depository (linking to the exact section on this article), I'm OK with a merge. However, there must at least be a reference to this on the Fort Knox page to make people aware of it; otherwise most people will miss it (since most people know about Fort Knox as a gold depository and not as an Army installation, per se). -Eep² 05:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
There already is a link to here at the top of the Fort Knox article.--Dcooper 12:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This is what I was thinking of:

===Conspiracy theories===

There have been several conspiracy theories advanced by various parties related to the gold depository located at the fort. ''See [[United States Bullion Depository#Conspiracy theories|Conspiracy theories of the Fort Knox gold depository]]''.

Will that work? --rogerd 13:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me.--Dcooper 13:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Me too. -Eep² 21:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The merge is complete --rogerd 02:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh, it is? All you did was remove the conspiracy stuff from Fort Knox and the "merge" notice from United States Bullion Depository. Try again; that's not what a merge is... ∞ΣɛÞ² (τ|c) 05:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The proposal was to remove the content from the Fort Knox article and point to the Conspiracy theories section in the USBD article where the same content was duplicated. That's what the consensus was and that's what I did. Look again. --rogerd 13:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I guess I misunderstood the proposal then since what you did isn't a merge but a remove-and-link. The conspiracy theory section from Fort Knox#Conspiracy theories needs to actually be merged with United States Bullion Depository#In popular culture (most likely under a new section, "Conspiracy theories") conspiracy theory section of this article since they both have different content. ∞ΣɛÞ² (τ|c) 20:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History Channel documentary

Awhile back, the History Channel did a special on the Gold Depository at Fort Knox. It clears up a number of misconceptions and explains the source of some of the rumors and conspiracy theories.

The producers and writers of the special spent a lot of time combing through photo and film archives. They came up with a remarkable amount of information as to what went into building the Depository and its security systems ca. 1937, when it was put in service. They also interviewed a couple of men who worked in the vault as part of an audit that was done in the late 1970s and early 1980s and actually handled the bullion. They further interviewed a former Senator from Kentucky who was part of the Congressional delegation that inspected the Depository in 1974 to put rumors that the place was empty to rest - the only time U.S. citizens who do not work there have been permitted into the vault, and the only time the Treasury has allowed cameras into the building.

The structure is heavily reinforced concrete, with the rebar running in three dimensions, obviously intended to resist blast. (How well it would resist modern shaped charges and bunker-busters might make for interesting speculation.)

As noted elsewhere the vault door is very heavy, and made of seven layers of steel plus "other materials" selected for resistance to explosives, acid and acetylene torches. The History Channel did not say that it was Mosler who designed the vault door and locking system, although it is tacitly conceded by Mosler that they were the contractor for that part of the vault.

There are electronic alarm and detection systems in place, though the U.S. Mint understandably does not discuss precisely what systems are in place. It is known that ADT supplied the system originally installed in 1936, and that there are security cameras in place presumably sending images to a remote location. What additional systems may be in place the Mint does not discuss. It may be presumed there is a constant upgrading process and that the electronic surveillance systems are either state of the art; or more probably, in advance of the state of the art.

As originally constructed, there are four shooting positions - pillboxes, for practical purposes - at the four corners of the building and accessible only from within the Depository building. It has been suggested that there are remote-controlled "pop-up" machine guns like those shown in the movie Aliens in these firing positions, but an examination of their construction shows that's nonsense. The firing slits are meant to allow a man with a shoulder weapon, possibly a Thompson submachine gun (that being the state of the art when the pillboxes were built), to cover the full 360 degrees of a circle in the event of an attack on the Depository.

Since then, two small structures have been added to the Depository roof. They appear to be of 1960s or early 1970s in design. What they contain is unknown, as the window glass is heavily tinted. One may speculate that they either hold or protect some sort of antiaircraft missile launcher. Such a launcher (if present) is most likely man-portable, because mounting any worthwhile missile system that would fit under the 'new' roof shacks would require cutting holes in the roof to fit the necessary magazine and machinery. The Depository was built to resist aerial bombing, artillery bombardment, or an armored assault. At the time of its construction the concept of a helicopter assault was unknown. It may be presumed that those responsible for defense of the gold have now sealed that chink in the Depository's armor with whatever is concealed on the roof.

When the Depository was built, there was only one fence around it, a wrought-iron affair about 8 feet tall with spikes on top. There were also trees along the approach road and in the area beyond the fence. At some point between 1937 and today all these trees were removed and two additional chain link fences have been added. It is said that these are electrified, but as usual the Mint isn't telling. What is known is that removal of the trees now provides the building with a beaten fire zone about half a mile across, well within the effective range of any machine guns currently in service or projected for future service.

Some conspiracy theorists suggest that the new fences contain belts of mines. This is possible but improbable in my opinion. Mines have a finite service life; they become unstable over time and will detonate without warning. Also, deer do pass through the area and they are heavy enough to activate any mine intended for antipersonnel work. I should imagine that someone would notice and call the local TV station if there was a crater seen from the highway that runs beside the Depository with a dead deer next to it.

It is known that when the Bank of France was built in Paris in the 19th Century, a system for flooding the bank vaults was installed as a last-ditch defense against theft of the gold reserves held there. It has long been rumored that a similar system was installed at the Depository. Photos taken during construction of the building show there to be one level below ground, which most assumed to house the bullion vault. However, the film from the 1974 Congressional inspection, and information told by the former workers, indicates that much of the gold is housed in small "cells" running around the inner and outer perimeters of the main floor. It is said that there is an indoor firing range, equipment rooms and guard barracks in the lower level. While there may be more strongrooms holding gold in the lower level, if what was revealed in 1974 is correct flooding the lower level would not protect the gold. The thought does occur to me that the rumors have been fostered by the movie Goldfinger, in which a two-level vault was shown. Were that the case a flooding system would make sense, but with what the 1974 film reveals it does not.

It is true that at various times things other than bullion have been stored at Fort Knox. During World War II and on into the Cold War, a substantial supply of processed morphine and opium was kept there as a hedge against the United States being cut off from the sources of supply of raw opium. The invention of synthetic painkillers renders that exercise academic. It is known that the Crown Jewels of Hungary were sent there for safekeeping during World War II, and remained for more than 40 years before finally being returned to Hungary. Likewise, for a period of about three years the originals of the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were stored there during the war.

The aforementioned documentary on Fort Knox claims that the British Crown Jewels were sent there during World War II as well. However, an episode of the History Channel series Underground discussing the city of Edinburgh claims the Crown Jewels were actually hidden in Edinburgh Castle, in the privy pit of what could be described as the Royal Fuehrerbunker when the castle was built. There is a mystery to be solved here.

As far as the gold itself, when the audit I mentioned earlier was done there was more than 5,000 tons of gold in the Depository. The gold is in bar form, about 7 inches by 3 1/2 inches by 1 1/2 inches per bar. Each bar weighs about 40 pounds. The bars are not easy to handle and it's very easy to crush your hand and break every bone in it if you are not extremely careful, according to the vault workers. Its very mass is one of its best protections against theft.

Bear in mind that when the bars were moved to Fort Knox in 1937, they moved by rail, with 506 railcar-trips required to do the job. However, let us assume we have found a way to get inside the vault and remove the gold from the strongrooms without destroying the building. What would it take to transport the gold reserves away?

Let's do the math. 50 bars @ 40 lbs/bar = 2000 lbs, one ton (short ton, that is; what Americans use for calculating weight ashore).

A standard semi-trailer has a maximum cargo weight of 80,000 lbs, or 40 tons. Each could hold 2000 bars, probably as two tiers on the floor of the trailer (and heaven help you if they shift on a curve).

Assuming a mere 5,000 tons of gold is in the Depository, it would require 125 tractor-trailer rigs or rig-trips to remove all the gold.

Try it by air and it gets even better. A Sikorsky Skycrane can lift about 18,000 pounds, or 9 tons. A standard 20 foot cargo container weight 2 tons, which cuts the available usable cargo weight to 7 tons. That works out to 715 chopper-trips to remove all the gold using the heaviest-lift helicopter available.

this leads me to conclude it would require the resources of either a major omnicorp or a rich foreign government to remove the gold from Fort Knox by force.

And, one assumes, the Army might have something to say about a bunch of people mucking about over at the gold vault. It was not placed on an Army post by accident, much less at the Armor Center where there is a division's-worth of Abrams tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles and attack chopppers handy. Before you can go after the Depository, you have to figure out what to do about them. Somehow I don't think that gold is going anywhere any time soon.

There is a whole lot of rumor and not much of fact available concerning the Gold Depository at Fort Knox. I do know that were I the President, I would do as Harry Truman and Franklin D. Roosevelt did and sign a Presidential Order allowing me to inspect the place. It's not open to tourists, never has been, and it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity to see more wealth in one place than even Bill Gates can boast.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.188.140 (talk • contribs) 08:41, May 16, 2007 UTC

[edit] Cubed or not?

> For a comparison, all the gold ever mined in the world would form a cube 19.6 meters on a side. [citation needed] <

I read a different figure: a solid ball of 27 metes in diameter, which goes to 10305 in volume, while a 19,6 meter sided cube is only 7530. Which is right? 82.131.210.162 12:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Penny market?

It is not explicitly mentioned in the article, but the 4570 metric tonnes of gold reportedly held in the depository is worth a mere 105,1 thousands million US dollars. That looks like pocket change, since US military spending per year is close to 400 billion USD and a big company like TD Ameritrade handles 297bn collected from customers. Bill Gates has PERSONAL fortunes worth more than half of entire Fort Knox booty. What all that fuss about Fort Knox then? This is not explained in the article. 82.131.210.162 12:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You're not a gold bug, obviously. To them, only the gold reserves are real money. The only "real" wealth the U.S. government has is those gold reserves, by their thinking; so it's vital to know that the shiny stuff is really there. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Audit Update?

"In 2007, KPMG will carry out an independent audit[citation needed]." 2007 is past, any update? Sarolite (talk) 16:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opening...

"In early 1933, as part of the New Deal, the U.S. Congress enacted a package of laws which removed gold from circulation as money, and which made private ownership of gold in the U.S. ... illegal."

I'm certain that congress inacted no such law outlawing private ownership of gold. However Executive Order 6102 (which is not a law, per se) did attempt to. Maybe I'm just nitpicky but an Executive Order is not enacted by congress and is not a law.69.246.140.125 (talk) 06:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)